How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

I have put loads of ideas forward on a united Ireland and the form it should take.

So if I misunderstood the thrust of your post I apologise.

just to clarify

is there a geographical area you would refer to as the Irish nation?

do you see someone who is ‘Irish’ and living in Liverpool as the same as someone who is Irish and living in Belfast. And would you agree both are not living ‘in’ Ireland (I will accept the one in Belfast is living ‘on’ the island of Ireland but someone living in Dublin is definitely living ‘in’ Ireland )

Yes the georgrapical area would be Ireland from where that nation or Irish people comes from. Liverpool is not in Ireland but Belfast is. Irish person in Liverpool is not going to be native to it but an Irish person in Belfast could be in thier home city. That is only difference you can see. I don't get what you mean in and on. Are both Belfast and Dublin not in and on Ireland? If you are trying to say do I get one is in the Republic and the other in the UK I do.

A sidestep if ever there was one.

You won't address the question...which will arise in a UI, but you are quite happy to misrepresent the answer because it provides a cheap slur.

There are people who have said they would leave, if there was a successful referendum on a UI.

What proposals have you to deal with those people if a UI happens?

Simple question, to which...'you don't vote for a UI'....is the answer. There are those who will want to leave if there is any dissolution of the Union...in blanch's, world view are they consigned to stay?

Jesus.

And there will still be people who will want to leave. Listen to what they are saying. They will not tolerate any dissolution of THE UNION.

Is there any way you can take part in a discussion without slandering people? Without the sneering about things nobody has said?

It’s not that complicated. You be on an island, you be in a country.

I don't get what you mean " just because there is a nation of people for X does not mean X is theirs" the Irish nation of people is connected with Ireland. If you are part of this nation of people you will have a connection with Ireland. Belfast is within Ireland so a person from there would be part of an Irish nation in the same way a person from Liverpool would be seen as part of an English nation. liverpudlians or Belfasters? are not nations.

The naivety of this is genuinely mind boggling, Blanch.

I don't think your proposals come from a place of malice, and I do believe you come at things with the best of intentions, but your complete and utter lack of exposure to people like Jim Allister, Sammy Wilson or even Jamie Bryson leave you woefully unable to properly understand what you're proposing.

There is NO Ireland that those people are willing to be a part of, no compromise great enough, no acknowledgement of their Britishness deep enough and no amount of inclusionary sopping sufficient.

While the vast majority of Unionism is made of up reasonable people, who may well be taken along by your reasonable accommodations, there exists without a shred of doubt a section of society who will never under any circumstances feel like it is enough.

When I talk about sitting in your comfy suburb and reading about it in the papers, it is in reference to attitudes like this; attitudes that no one with real life experience could possibly hold. It isn't to demean your experiences or opinions, but rather to point out that they lack the context of lived experience.

The more you pretend that the Irish people, and country, end at the imaginary line drawn through Ulster the more you accelerate Unionism's death-spiral.

The very best you can hope for is retaining a sort of hybrid region where people with an affectation for Britain appreciate they live in Ireland amongst the Irish. No amount of kerb painting, Lambeg drum banging, or flute-blowing cosplay will ever change that you live in Ireland amongst the Irish people, you should try getting used to it.

The majority of Unionists in NI (60% in GFA)have already said they will be democrats if a UI is arrived at.

-Of course they will campaign vociferously to avoid that. But they will accept it.

I think the vast majority of Unionists may well be taken along without the more radical alternatives you have suggested by ensuring their culture and rights are respected and protected in a single unitary nation. That being said, I've repeatedly acknowledged that some of your suggestions should be on the table (various federal/devolved solutions) even if they're not my preferred outcomes. Others are absolute pie in the sky (NI independence).

That deflection aside, it still doesn't address the substance of the post you replied to; what is your solution to the Jamie Brysons of NI, who even with every compromise you've suggested over the donkeys we've been discussing this will still refuse to be taken along?

It seems to me there are essentially three responses.

1) Do nothing, let them suck it up, accept the democratic decision made and tough luck if they don't like it (which would seem to run contrary to the conciliatory approach you've professed thusfar).

2) Refuse to countenance Unification until there is a solution that has absolutely 100% support (which is so anti-democratic I won't bother lingering).

3) Provide some sort of solution tailored specifically for this small group of people.

Number 3 seems to be where Francie's suggestion lies; I understand your concern around when does voluntary relocation become not so voluntary, but I think you and some other posters have been grossly unfair to paint Francie's suggestion as advocating ethnic cleansing/forced relocation.

You may think his position is naive or that he hasn't thought the consequences through, but it is absolutely a strawman created to avoid putting forward alternative solutions to accuse Francie of advocating for ethnic cleansing here.

I suspect that should Unification happen, a number of people who have the means to do so will relocate, much like I chose to when my patience for NI wore out. Some people don't have the means, so we're looking at door No. 1, 2 or 3 either way.

Millions of people leave their homes to relocate, Blanch.....most for reasons akin to the ones I had myself; frustration with their current location and better social or economic prospects elsewhere.

That being said, I'm absolutely not advocating for it, Blanch. I'm saying that you're being deliberately disingenuous in portraying Francie as advocating for ethnic cleansing/forced relocation.

I've said in the very post you're responding to that I can understand if you think Francie's suggestion is naive, or the consequences are poorly thought through, but it is quite clear he is not advocating for ethnic cleansing or any sort of forced relocation.

And we're still left with the conundrum; door 1, 2 or 3? You still haven't put forward your own preferred approach there.

That’s cheered my evening up. Tom, who has insisted for years on here that I was Irish, is on the move. Seems he is now accepting I only live among them. I can’t argue with that. I am surrounded by them. Some lovely people and friends, some shinners who want me out.

now that Tom is on the journey, who knows what final destination is possible.

Not advocating for it, Downcow.....merely saying that it was not the same as advocating for ethnic cleansing, which was the charge levelled at Francie.

If I have to make my own position clear, I think it is a very naive idea, entirely implausible in practical terms and absolutely would be susceptible to the, 'when does voluntary relocation become....heavily suggested relocation' factor that Blanch highlighted, I just think it is highly unfair to position what I perceive as a naive suggestion from Francie as a malicious one.

I'd be firmly in the, 'create an equitable society that respects and protects its minorities and if you don't like the democratic decisions made there, tough sh*t' approach. You could throw comparisons to Jamie Bryson and Jim Allister in a hypothetical United Ireland if your lot had ever got the first bit right.