How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730824#Comment_118730824

We are talking hypotheticals when discussing here.

You have no plan, that is fine. Just underlines the paucity of preparation.

*I have no exclusionary nationalist tendencies, that is an attempt to enflame the conversation and a lie.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118730854#Comment_118730854

I am now supposed to have a plan for a hypothetical (unionists unable to leave) that is extremely unlikely to happen after an event (an exclusionary nationalist united Ireland) that I believe will never happen. And somehow, the absence of that plan underlines the paucity of preparation. What complete and utter bullsh!t that post is, especially as it comes from someone who self-admits they haven't a clue what a united Ireland will bring and walks away from every single discussion about a plan for a united Ireland.

An exclusionary nationalist is someone who only wants a united Ireland on certain exclusionary terms and labels others who aspire to a united Ireland as partitionists and those who disagree with them as belligerent unionists. If the cap fits, wear it.

FrancieBrady

And would your vision not also be described as 'exclusionary' if a majority want a UI?

You exclude all talk of it and promulgate scenarios nobody bar yourself and a few last ditchers want.

And doen't get me started on your own use of labels.

A bit of self awareness now blanch would do no harm.

I do put labels of convenience on people, partitionists and belligerents, who seek to exclude themselves via bitterness and threat.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118728765#Comment_118728765

Answer the question francie. Tell me how much you think we should be offered to leave?? What about £300,000? Would you give us that?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118734299#Comment_118734299

How would I know?

Everyone will be in different circumstances.

Quite bizarre really, why would you and blanch reject help on behalf of people and then pretend Ireland would be a cold house for Unionists?

If nobody wants it, fine.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118734361#Comment_118734361

It’s a bit like your UI idea in general. It’s ridiculous and unworkable nonsense.

why would everyone get different amounts? and how would you propose to measure what people should get?

and don’t duck the question again. Imagine an average ulster/British family living in ni (make up what ever circumstances you wish for them). Then give us a ball park figure for a relocation subsidy? To the nearest £100,000 - how’s that for making it easy for you.

now step up and answer it.

ittakestwo

It is political dangerous to offer a relocation grant as it would be seen that unionists are not welcome in a UI.

If people want to live within the union then let them move at their own expense. But they should be warned there is no even guarantee the union will even exist in the future. All it will mean is they're moving from Ireland where they're from to a potential independent Scotland or England where they're not from. What was the piont.

What people are so backwards and brainwashed that can only live in a UK jurisdiction all their lives. Could these people have ever lived in any other place in the world or is it just a UI they can't live. Because of the sectarian culture in the North I think some people's hatred of a UI is greater than their desire to live within the UK and that is the real reason they will move. Good riddance.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735211#Comment_118735211

Will you explain why you need an exact figure? Mervyn in Lisbellaw will be in entirely different circumstances to Iris in East Belfast.

The important point is that help is there if somebody needs it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735224#Comment_118735224

There should be no 'offer'. Embassies don't offer services to ex-pats, they are though there if an ex-pat needs them. Same idea, if help is needed who supports that?

Seems there are some who will abandon people in need. I wouldn't be so lacking in empathy to propose that. There were many many people displaced by the conflict/war in the north, they should also be helped if they wish to return.

I would consider that a decent thing to do, but clearly some don't see it that way.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735796#Comment_118735796

Major back-paddling going on there. I think that’s a pretty clear admission that you were talking nonsense

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118735224#Comment_118735224

“I think some people's hatred of a UI is greater than their desire to live within the UK and that is the real reason they will move. Good riddance.”

i think I fall into that category, as do the majority of ni.

I could countenance an independent ni way ahead of a UI. So I guess ‘good riddance’ suggests you see no future for me, or the vast majority of unionists, in your wee free state.

I guess there are some nationalists who’s hatred for the Uk is greater than their desire to live in a UI. They wouldn’t countenance a UI within the Uk. But I will not be saying ‘good riddance’ to them/you as I will uphold your right to hold that view.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738354#Comment_118738354

Zero back peddling.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118738387#Comment_118738387

"So I guess good riddance means you see no future for me or the vast majority of unionists in your we free state"

Firstly I don't accept the vast majority of unionists will move. I would say it would be a small minority.

Secondly it is not that I see they have no future in a UI it is that they see they have no future. I think any unionist can easily live in a UI and that there is no need to move.

If their attachment to here is only based on it being part of a certain jurisdiction then they don't really have a strong connection with here. Ireland is my home. Whether it is in UK, UI or an EU jurisdiction it will be my home and I ain't going anywhere. If some people's connection is that weak with here that they can only stay should it be in a certain jurisdiction then yeah.... Good riddance.

Maybe worth pointing out that in the 70s the UK government offered subsidies to famies willing to relocate from Belfast to Craigavon. So it is not an idea that is out of the question, but the experience will have told them that the scheme was very open to abuse.

votecounts

Why should there be any relocation grant, a sign that they are not welcome. If they feel the need to move because of their closeness to the Union or hatred of anythig Irish, then sell their house or get a loan and move where they feel welcome.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118739281#Comment_118739281

I fully agree with you on this. Any relocation grant creates a sense that unionists are not welcome in a future united Ireland.

I suspect that any such proposal will be viewed as an attempt to create a pure Ireland, free of British influence.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118744894#Comment_118744894

What 'relocation grant'?

downcow

More windup nonsense from sf. This is the type of silly games that makes any idea of integration of unionists into a ui less likely

Peregrinus

I don't think Emerson is quite right.

What the GFA provides is that the SoS may hold a border poll at a date specified by him, and should hold a border poll if it appears likely to him that a majority would favour a UI. The only constraint on holding border polls is that they can't be held more frequently than every seven years. As none has been held yet, one can be held at any time.

Presumably at the moment the SoS doesn't think a majority would vote for a UI. We know this because (a) if he did think that he would, or at least should, be already arranging to hold a poll, and (b) opinion polling doesn't suggest a majority for a UI, so why would the SoS form the opinion that a border poll would vote in favour of a UI?

But this doesn't mean that he can't hold a border poll. As already noted, he may hold one at any time. If he did hold a poll, he would be acting "as provided for in the Agreement", since the Agreement explicitly allows him to hold a poll. And, if the Irish government were to suggest to him that he should hold a border poll and he were to agree, both of them would be acting "in accordance with the Good Friday Agreement" as, again, neither the suggestion nor the agreement would be contrary to the GFA.

The City Council's resolution does beg the question, though: why call for a border poll when, if held right now, it's likely to be lost? How would it advance the cause of a United Ireland to have the voters of NI reject unification?

One possible answer is that those tabling the motion know perfectly well that, even if passed, it won't lead to a border poll actually being held. The Irish government will ignore, or explicitly reject, the suggestion that they should lobby the SoS for a border poll. So you might do this to position yourselves as the True Republicans™, in contrast to that shower in Merrion Street.

A second possible answer is that you think you might actually win a border poll, if by some chance one were to be held. There'd be a degree of wishful thinking at work there, it's fair to say. But it's worth noting that this motion was originally tabled in May 2020*, when it was apparent to people that the UK government was making an unimaginable hames of Brexit, that this was likely to lead to NI being royally shafted, and that the unionist establishment wasn't going to do a hand's tap to prevent that. A no-deal Brexit was still on the cards and, opinion polling suggested, in that scenario there could be a majority for a UI.

And a third possible answer is that you would expect to lose such a poll, but you would still see value to holding one, in (a) keeping the discussion going, and (b) affirming eventual reunification as a serious political prospect.

[* Why was the resolution tabled in May 202 but not voted on until March 2022? I have no idea.]

FrancieBrady

Why hold one now?

Because that is what Unionists and partitionists fear most, a proper debate and plan (contributed to by experts not random interneters) put forward by a southern legislature (themselves unified in wanting or at least supporting a UI).

That cannot be countenanced A) because it might succeed and B) because it could convince enough people to ensure that in 7 years there would be a very noticeable majority clamouring for another vote. Also note, Scottish Independence had 32% support ot thereabouts when the ref was called there. Only a fool would say a UI would definitely fail.

Good old fashioned 'fear' is reason.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118755235#Comment_118755235

A border poll would be held in NI. There's no guarantee that IRL authorities would put forward a "proper debate and plan" for the purposes of that poll, because the debate hasn't been held and the plan doesn't exist, and they wouldn't be under any obligation to participate in the poll at all, what with it being an NI-only poll. It seems to me that that work ought to be done before a poll is called; otherwise the poll could be a significant setback for the cause.

(For what it's worth, the GFA envisages the details of reunification being worked out after an in-principle vote for unification in a border poll. That's not to say that a good deal of work on the project can't or shouldn't be done before a poll, but those anxious to avoid the question can point to the GFA in support of their position.)

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118755261#Comment_118755261

Hard to imagine a scenario like above.

A UI will be a massive prize to deliver. Imagine the future for a southern party who either, remained neutral on the question or campaigned against one or who tried to remain coy'? A disaster.

The practical legal details will be worked out after a successful poll. That is a different thing IMO. For instance, any government based plan will be phrased such - 'if the HSE and northern Health Service were to be be joined together, this is what we propose should happen'....

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118755289#Comment_118755289

Seriously, platforms that might be put forward in the context of a referendum by various political parties in the south are not remotely the same thing as a proper debate and a reasoned, researched plan for implementing reunification. I'm old enough to remember the New Ireland Forum, which worked for over a year with a good deal of expert and professional input and with public service support, and it barely scratched the surface of examining the issues and producing a sketch of a plan.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118757901#Comment_118757901

The NIF was a talk shop with ...was their even an aim? It became tokenistic almost from inception.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118758090#Comment_118758090

And you think a referendum campaign will produce a better quality of serious debate and expert planning? You're dreaming, Francie.

You may not like how the NIF unfolded, or the conclusions it reached. But it was at least well-resourced, with a permanent public service secretariat and a budget for commissioning and publishing research from independent experts. That's a pretty irreducible minimum for any half-way serious attempt to plan for Irish reunification. And you'll have exactly zero of that with political parties preparing and issuing statements in relation to a border poll.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118758148#Comment_118758148

I don't remember a thing about the NIF because of the backdrop which was the conflict/war still going on and the main participants were missing from that particular table.

It reminds me of Micheal's Unity project which nobody is really paying any heed to because the principal voices are missing from there too.

I can see a lazy arsed approach but I cannot see them getting away with it. And we may have regime change too, to factor in.

At the very least it would be criminal not to prepare properly.

maccored

"How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?"

It should be "How can Unionism integrate itself into a possible United Ireland?"

The answer of course, would be the same way as everyone else; with a bit of effort and give and take. leave the whinging at home.

FrancieBrady

Make no mistake, the times they are a changin'

https://twitter.com/AmandaFBelfast/status/1501590024957087748

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118758268#Comment_118758268

What you will have to face up to if ever Ui happened, we would become the crocodiles with the insatiable appetite 🙂.

we have learnt lots of tricks from you guys for getting fed.

god help any innocent well meaning southerners who vote it in thinking it is a nice idea 😂

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118762533#Comment_118762533

if there was still a us v them attitude around in a UI then the idea would have already failed