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Cities around the world that are reducing car access

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,446 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If only that were the case. Any proposed restrictions on cars are very 'very small in scope.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,171 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,171 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    trying to compel people to the conclusions which you wish to be drawn

    you mean he's trying to convince them of the merit of his argument? what a beast.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    via a limited number of fabricated possible responses of his or her choosing and none beyond them. Yeah, they have a place waiting for them in the diplomatic corp.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Please read the posts again and give the insults and name-calling a rest.

    I am merely asking you to clarify your interpretation of what a car ban means as you like to assert that every other poster is trying to bring it in. The history of this thread shows otherwise yet you continue to throw it around as a way to reduce other valid viewpoints.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    I'll never get you to publicly admit on thread that you want massive amounts of the arterial routes in Dublin closed to private traffic making ownership of a car basically pointless. You are clever enough not to say that. It is what you want but you will never say it on thread. You'll use more convuluted approaches in pursuit of your goal.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ah here, you really need to get over the personal stuff. The reason you'll never get that from me as its not something I'm looking for. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    and there is the side order of passive aggressiveness.

    Frustrating that this sub-forum is full of people who think they know how to solve urban Ireland's transportation woes without having experienced successful implementation of traffic management abroad.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,187 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    It's not in any way goal post moving. The simple fact is that DB unions (and CIE unions in general) are known to be very reticent to change or their members doing any extra work, which driving twice as many routes would entail. We live in the real world and if you're going to talk about increased capacity you have to talk about the people providing said extra capacity.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    I suspect chinese ebikes like the Himo C20, Fiido and Ado A20 might be the unexpected path to congestion free urban transport because the councils certainly won't achieve it along with the increasing cost of motoring will lead people to re-evaluate the second car on their driveways. shared bikes are not where you want when you want them. scooters are deathtraps.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭gjim


    You're not the first to try to tease out what exactly their argument/point is - only to be met with evasion and insults.

    I'm not sure haphaphap really has any intention to actually convince anyone of their viewpoint or even to communicate a coherent viewpoint.

    When I see someone tirelessly writing messages like this which make no attempt to engage constructively, it suggests to me one of either two things. Either the person is a classic troll; causing heat and arguments is actually the goal and insulting people along the way is part of the pleasure. This strikes me as an odd hobby and a touch sociopathic but I guess each to their own.

    Alternatively, the person genuinely believes they are correct but are socially immature and have no tools for dealing with disagreement. They've yet to realise that insult and ridicule are the exact opposite of what you should be doing if you want to convince others to consider your ideas. No matter how reasonable your position is, shouting/insulting/ridiculing/brow-beating the people you are trying to influence is worse than ineffective - it's clearly stupid. Thankfully life is full of experiences which teach you the value of avoiding this approach - whether through experiences in a work environment or by having family/a partner (particularly dealing with kids) or just generally being a reasonable member of society and not alienating neighbours, friends, etc.

    For some reason, I find out-and-out trolls to be less weird, at least it implies some self-awareness and it's unlikely to spill out into the person's "real life". I'd like to believe haphaphap is actually a subtle troll.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭gjim


    I honestly have and had no intention of hurting you or insulting you. What I wrote was directed at DaCor who seems to have made a genuine effort to engage with.

    If you're a troll, then bravo, I suppose. If you're not, then I feel some sympathy for you - everything in life is much better and easier once you develop the basic tools to being able to communicate effectively.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    While not feeling hurt I am feeling as welcome as a TERF at a Gender Studies institute.

    Suggesting that cars have a legitimate right to exist in Urban areas is akin to Heresy around these parts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,446 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Are you suggesting that there should be no restriction on private cars at all?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    complete nonsense.

    the drivers will still be driving the same amount of routes as they always have been, they will simply be going from end to end a bit more which is not going to be a union issue meaning you bringing unions into the discussion is redundant.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    restrictions below euro4 emmission standards in Urban areas seems reasonable place to start. at this stage it does not hurt the poorest percentiles too much and they can trade their polluting cars for compliant cars with motorists out in the Boonies.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,171 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Fiidos don't seem like the choice of commuters, they seem more the choice of teenage boys here. the chap who runs my local bike shop has a poor opinion of them, he refuses to engage with them anymore except to fix punctures, says they're bargain basement in terms of quality.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    They can not work miracles at those price points and just because they look a bike like a BMX doesn#t make them as rugged as a BMX.

    But would his dislike for them have something to do with the sales model which cuts out the dealer? Just sayin'.

    Of all them the Fiido based on what research I can do over the internet is my least favoured. I am hesitating on buying one particlar alternative which I see advertised at the moment because I am unsure of the seller.

    BTW Fiidos and Himos wonät actually be legal in Ireland if the motors can be increased to 350w in cheat mode. I want to try to stay legal if I can.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,754 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    This has become a very tiresome thread. Why do people continue to engage with one attention seeking poster.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,171 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    yeah, it's certainly possible that he doesn't like them because he doesn't sell them, but if it's a case that they're sold at a price point where fixing one is a significant proportion of the purchase price, he may have reason for giving up on them.

    i've been in the shop on two occasions where customers have become annoyed with him over the quoted price of fixing bikes; and he's quite reasonable price wise for repairs. €30 for a complete rebuild of a decent road bike wheel for me a few years ago, as one example. many people think a bike costing €600 3 years ago should be fixable for under €50 no matter the damage.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    it doesn't need to win hearts and minds, it needs to cut emissions and costs and improve over all efficiency which it will absolutely do.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    Is your shift in the depot over for the night?



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    Unless you happen to live directly at a bus shelter it doesn't improve efficiency in that bus doesn't deliver directly from source to destination. Bikes, scooters, cars, mopeds all trump a bus in this respect.

    If you do happen to live at a bus shelter I implore you to please engage with the outreach programs of the Homeless Charities and move as the passengers would like to sit down while waiting for the next bus.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    who's shift?

    not mine anyway as i don't work in any work place where there is a depot involved.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    it does improve efficiency because the bus is going from end to end quicker and more times per day.

    fold up bike to get to the bus or walk, take bus for part of the journey, walk or bike to the exact destination.

    very doable in the cities and for those outside, park and ride outside the cities.

    that way anyone who absolutely has no option but to use a car can do so with greater efficiency.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    I apologise profusely but as the Transport Unions' Apologist in Chief whenever the bus drivers have thrown their rattle out of the pram I just assume you'd come direct from Conygham, Donnybrook or Broadstone.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This might cause a few folks to choose an alternative mode of transport

    "The oil market is heading for simultaneously low inventories, low spare capacity and still low investment," Morgan Stanley analysts wrote in a note cited by the Wall Street Journal this week, summing up the situation quite nicely. In this situation, $90 for a barrel of Brent may be just the beginning.

    Indeed, the Wall Street consensus seems to be that Brent will reach $100 by the summer... "




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    no you just wanted to act the you know what, because i have been very clear that i do not work in the transport industry plenty of times on this site, so i am in no doubt you know the score.

    i will never be ashamed to appologise for unions doing their job.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    Apart from filling up Hire Cars I haven't pumped diesel or petrol in years.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,754 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Moving on, we have another sterling bit of 'not bothered' journalism by the Irish Times

    Cars set to retain access to part of Capel Street (irishtimes.com)

    It seems that road engineer Joe Kelly recons we must not pedestrianise all of Capel Street because with Liffey Street going pedestrian soon there'll be no direct access route from Arnotts car park to the quays.

    Of course it being Dublin City Council and the Irish Times, nobody seems to be capable of asking the question, where is it written down that there must be a direct route between Arnotts and the quays for cars????

    Cars could exit Arnotts, go down strand street and turn onto Jervis street, then Parnell street and then go wherever they like. Why do we have to give the owners of private multi storey car parks (which are being converted to different more profitable use anyway) ownership of our public spaces? Do we owe them something or did they not get enough tax breaks in the 90s?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    While I would agree that far too much deference has been paid to the owners of Car Parks in relation to traffic planning, in the context of cities removing public car parking spaces, they can still hold with the excuse (for those that need to hear it) that car parking is provided for by private operators.

    The amount of Capel Street being kept for traffic is tiny. Objecting to the scheme on the basis that it should be all or nothing (not saying that this is your view), is making the perfect the enemy of the good. I would be of the view that you take the wins you can get now, and come back later for the rest. In time, as you say, the car park owners will have to re-purpose their buildings anyway, due to reduced demand and potential higher profits for other uses, so the problem will take care of itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,754 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I'm not saying I've an all or nothing view. Just that there is not sufficient reason for the all not being achieved, the reason being that the car park owners have divine right to quays access. But says who? The IT doesn't even see fit to question when and from where said divine right was bestowed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Says who? 'senior council engineer Joe Kelly told councillors the section of Capel Street between Strand Street and the quays “has to be kept open” to traffic'. I'm always interested in the interaction between council officials and councillors in these decisions. If they go along with the engineer's advice, will they be "following the advice of the experts" to use a now-common phrase?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,754 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Would love to see Joe kellys justification for this 'must'. Its being reported now that both will go ahead.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,171 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,754 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Car parks win every time



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    I'm inclined to take the win here. I always kinda expected the bottom of Capel Street to facilitate some car traffic with the bottom of Liffey Street being pedestrianised too.

    This is still massive:




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,171 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it's a tough one. they can't just close off access to car parks having granted PP for them and allowed them to operate for years; it's not like the 'will it or won't it increase footfall' argument for retail businesses, if you're simply preventing 'customers' from driving to car parks.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    I presume that they're concerned about possible litigation by Car Park owners, resulting in a large payout by the council, and this is why they bend over backwards for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,754 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    They still have access via Jervis Street. This case semonstrates that they have a right, not only to access but direct access to the quays to be exact. We should be reducing access to the quays incrementally until they are bus only



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I agree with you. Get these things done step by step. Rather than go into battle with the car park owners, the better approach is to let them wither away as fewer cars come in. The owners won’t be slow to repurpose when their investment returns start to fall



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Independent councillor Nial Ring said there are nearly as many vehicles - 8,795 - as there are pedestrians - 9,600 - using the street.

    He said this plan would involve removing a massive amount of traffic, considering that 65,000 cars in total cross the canals each day.

    It was not clear how to cross from the northside to City Hall if this change was carried out.

    A) There being as many cars as pedestrians using Capel St is part of the problem (and I don't completely believe that either...)

    B) The canal cordon count from 2019 has 46,000 cars (+4,000 taxis)

    C) Who the hell is driving to City Hall?



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    On point A. If you pedestrianise the street, it is likely a lot more pedestrians will use it. Just look at Grafton street and Henry street. You couldn't get a car done those streets at times with the amount of people on them.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Absolutely, I just find it surprising more cars use it than people now considering how bloody slowly they trudge their way through it. Though easy to make the tiny paths seem crowded I guess.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,128 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    On point C, I'd guess Cllr Nial Ring?

    Re car parks, I noticed recently an application to lop 2 floors off Arnotts car park to replace with apartments. That and the Trinity Street redevelopment indicate a clear direction of travel. A handful of councillors and officials will be the last to see the writing on the wall.



  • Registered Users Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Alias G


    I think it would be preferable to focus on removing on street parking in preference to the car parks. It would do a lot more for opening up the city, making it a nicer destination and freeing up road space for sustainable modes of transport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    I've noticed that things are pretty quiet in terms of making Parliament Street fully pedestrianised. Any more word on this yet?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,171 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    there are approx. 100 shops on capel street; if you assumed that every pedestrian on capel street entered one shop (and i'm including a few pubs in that) that'd be an average of each shop getting one customer every 12 minutes. which doesn't seem at all realistic.

    also, when does that pedestrian count date from? what days? etc.; without knowing further that could have been taken when shops were closed because of covid!



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