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Global cities reducing car access



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,253 ✭✭✭ DaCor

    This may surprise you but you are not that important.

    The only thing you are being asked to do is provide something to back up your position to provide context and sources as you have a habit of making claims that you assert as being the only valid viewpoint while dismissing the opinion of others simply because they hold a different view, even when they offer evidence.

    If you want to be taken seriously, engage with people here in a reasoned debate, avoid the insults and name calling and provide context and evidence to support your viewpoint.

    No more is being asked of you than of anyone else in this thread.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap

    If you know how to use google you would find the article. It doesn't require an advanced degree in googology.

    Quit with the "we're all honourable and decent chaps around here" spiel. I recognise some Barracuda swimming in these waters.

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,855 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle

    I asked you to provide a source ro an article you copied from. I didnt ask you to scan your passport, FFS!

    That's some crap debating youre doing there! I'm not going to entertain your crap any more.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,514 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko

    Famous in my own lunchtime eh? If you've a problem with posts, you are welcome to report them or ignore them, it's up to you. I'm not trying to win anyone over. I'll just concentrate on the facts, and let people make their own decisions.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,993 ✭✭✭ Ben D Bus

    I've stated elsewhere that I'd happily support the Galway bypass if it was accompanied by a corresponding reduction in road space inside it. Same car carrying capacity but a much nicer city centre.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,437 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,878 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    Have I not been saying exactly this for years?

    Quote from article -

    "What about urban public transport itself?

    The best way to encourage people onto buses, trains and trams is to make them free. This could be done easily, is affordable and would constitute the biggest change to our cities since the catastrophic arrival of mass car ownership from the 1960s onwards, which has without doubt polluted, grabbed space and bullied the public realm of our cities and towns.

    Free public transport – not the electric car – is the metropolitan future.

    Let’s do the numbers. Although we have 2020 figures, 2019 pre-pandemic figures are more instructive. That year, a total of 294.6 million journeys were made on State-funded transport services, reflecting a 9.5 per cent increase on 2018 and an incredible 40 per cent increase since 2012. Two-thirds of these journeys were on the bus, with rail services (17 per cent) and light rail services (16 per cent) making up the rest."

    Bear in mind that a very high proportion of people already have a Free Travel Pass.

    Electric cars are just green washing - not a reduction of carbon emissions. Driving the kids to school a distance of 3 km in an electric SUV is not a green approach but getting them to walk or cycle is. Two tonnes of metal and batteries to transport one person or even two is not a good approach to climate change, as it consumes a large amount of energy and still takes up too much road space while moving or not moving. A 20 kg electric scooter or bike is a better approach if a push bike is too much effort.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,437 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder

    how much money does dublin bus make from fares, and how much from subsidies?

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap

    ...and yet all you here vent your spleen demonising cars rather than advocating at length for further subsidisation of Public Transport.

  • Registered Users Posts: 20,514 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap

    ...because Cars are not deserving of the criticism you lot heap upon them.

    I took a citybus here from one city region to another a few days ago and it was a much more pleasurable experience than anything I remember in Dublin with no anti-socials, ability to pay for ticket online, small tidy self-service kiosk at bus shelter which accepts coins, gives change along with credit and debit cards, realtime arrival time at the bus stop and online. The bus was unsurprisingly punctual.

    You as a group exhaust yourselves demonising cars while doing SFA to advocate for better public transport service. If you want to get people out of cars then make the alternative more appetizing.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭ cgcsb

    Free pt means less people walking and cycling and the same amount of cars

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,993 ✭✭✭ Ben D Bus

    That certainly seems like a real possibility. Is there any evidence from elswehere, one way or the other?

    Free PT should only be introduced in conjunction with a rollout of more free P&R and the introduction of congestion charging.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap

    Cheaper finance deals on cars here are around the price of a monthly public transport ticket. That is the competition. In fact some ev scooters are being advertised with monthly costs equivalent to monthly commuter tickets.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,878 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    I know quite a few people who have free travel passes, and what it means to them is that they use the most convenient solution - the bus or train, or car, or bike, or walk. Without the FTP, they would not dream of using the bus or train. Now, using the car at high congestion time would be a no-no, and the bus or train would be used, or the journey would be delayed or cancelled. Available parking is also a major influencer in their choice.

    Free public transport would have a significant effect on congestion - particularly if it was accompanied by either a congestion charge or higher and harder to find on street parking. Of course, P&R would be needed as well, particularly outside the M50.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,437 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder

    to a certain extent, i suspect so. but it'd also remove a barrier to convenience for a lot of people. take my next door neighbour, i'm going to make hypothetical assumptions about her. late 50s or early 60s, i don't think i've ever seen her get on a bus. but if she did want to get on a bus, she'd have to sort out change if she wanted to pay with cash, and there's probably plenty of people who don't handle cash anymore. but if she wanted to get a leap card there'd be the hassle of buying it and having to learn how it works, etc. which precludes casual use of the bus.

    i'm not saying it'd be transformative or anything, but it would make casual use of PT that little bit less hassle for people and might encourage some people who don't currently use it to try it once or twice.

    one thing i did notice that when the leap card came in, it saved me money; because i'd have often found myself in town with nothing smaller than a tenner, which i'd need to break to use the bus, so i'd buy something like a packet of crisps to do so. in a way, it's a similar (slight) lowering of hassle to do it.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 902 ✭✭✭ gjim

    I can understand making a service "free" if you've large historical sunk costs in the provision of it but it's lying idle or near idle. So open/free days in dusty museums and the like makes sense - museums are expensive to build and run and if they're empty, it a net loss for everyone.

    But this is pretty much the opposite of the situation with PT in Dublin. The fundamental problem of PT in Dublin is the lack of capacity - the infrastructure isn't there to provide a reasonable service to all the people who would like the option to use PT. Making it "free" is not going to solve this fundamental issue. The only solution is to increase capital spending to increase capacity.

    Anyway buses, trams and trains are already much cheaper than driving into town when you consider parking and private vehicle running costs. So the choice to drive clearly isn't driven by cost (or cost alone). Walking and cycling have a huge competitive advantage here - they're cheaper/almost free. Making PT free just means muscling into the competitive space currently occupied by walking and cycling.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap

    Countering misinformation here are the conclusions from a study on the benefits of Automated Emergency Breaking in cars. AEB is now obligatory in new cars.


    This study shows the effectiveness and value of AEB systems, especially in the reduction of injuries and in

    particular whiplash cases. The results of these and other findings have supported the implementation of an insurance

    discount system for AEB systems, and also the testing of such systems with Euro NCAP and other consumer test

    organisations which will encourage the proliferation of AEB within the vehicle parc.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap

    If 15% of the public only use your transport service regularly and the other 85% have hurdles which make alternatives more attractive then the problem is with the service.

    If cars were really so terrible there wouldn't be 2.2 million of them registered in Ireland. The figures speak for themselves.

    The way people talk amongst themselves on this sub-forum it is like you are trying to strategise how to get the last few problematic laggards on to the new model of operation when actually the majority are happy to continue using the existing satisfactory solution. It isn't like the migration from Penny Farthing to Safety Bicycle or Horse and Cart to car.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap

    Taken from Dublin Bus website:

    ● Please pay at the driver's ticket machine.

    ● To avail of this fare, simply present your Leap Card to the smart card reader on the right hand side as you enter the bus.

    Please make sure that you have the correct change to pay for your fare, drivers cannot accept Euro notes or give change.

    That's a barrier to occassional usage and onboarding to the service. Dublin Bus expect everyone gets a leap card and is surprised the Public do not comply.

    I just checked for a bus from Blanch to City Centre. It shows the route online but not a chance I can buy a ticket online from the route planner. It is not a problem I have with the service here where I can proceed to Deutsche Bahn's booking engine to pay for a short distance bus ticket.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,878 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    If the average speed of buses doubles, then so does the capacity.

    So reducing cars sufficiently to allow buses to travel faster improves the capacity and reduces journey time, and therefore attractiveness to casual users and benefits regular users. Now if the reduction in cars also allows to travel faster, that also increases the attractiveness of cars, so the improvement in bus transit times must be achieved by bus lanes and priority routings. It can also be achieved by curtailing parking and the imposition of a congestion charge.

    Of course enforcement will be central to its success.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap

    The route I chose was one with buslane pretty much all the way. You can send every car in Dublin to the scrapyard and speeds will not increase on that route.

    low hanging fruit like pleasant bus stops, anti-socials removed, ease of payment, realtime position information ignored...let's ban cars.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,878 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    Not many bus routes, if any, have bus lanes over anything but a tiny distance of the end to end route. Plus, many bus lanes are filled with cars pretending to turn left.

    Even the Luas is held up by cars at various points.

    No-one is calling to ban cars - only restrict them in certain places and at certain times.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap

    Do you think that increasing bus speeds by 100% is possible by banning cars?

    If cars are banned it is self-defeating in that the buses will be stopping at each and every bus stop and will be stationary for longer as passengers board and alight including the most doddery of the population who beg to find space beyond those blocking the aisle.

    Some of the most impressionable around here might take your claim at face value. How would you ever make it up to them when it turns out not to be true.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,437 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder

    my sister (pre covid) used to get the bus from near ongar into the city centre, and would sometimes have been sitting on the bus for 3 hours in a day; the big issue was usually when it got to around cabra, and progress would grind to a halt in heavy traffic.

    so as to whether it's possible to increase bus speeds by 100%, it depends on how big a box you want to draw around your parameters.

    if it's reducing a 15km journey on probably a dirty wet winter morning from 1h30m to 45m (i.e. bringing the average speed from 10km/h to 20km/h) then we're probably within the realms of possibilty of doing it; as the bus would often barely average walking speed in the city centre.

    i don't know how things have changed, she left that job several years ago.

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,878 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    I am merely pointing out that increasing bus speeds gives an equivalent increase in capacity. Te 100% was to make the sums easier.

    Not all passengers are doddery, and buses will stop as required which is part of its transit time.

    No-one is proposing banning cars - just restricting them in certain places and at certain times. Cars take up a lot of space for the number of passengers they carry.