Cities around the world that are reducing car access

Sam Russell · 28-01-2022 3:03pm

Mod: @haphaphap Less of the trolling. Do not attack posters, and if asked for sources, provide them.

Can we have less of the squabbles.

AndrewJRenko · 28-01-2022 4:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545318#Comment_118545318

Famous in my own lunchtime eh? If you've a problem with posts, you are welcome to report them or ignore them, it's up to you. I'm not trying to win anyone over. I'll just concentrate on the facts, and let people make their own decisions.

AndrewJRenko · 28-01-2022 4:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545663#Comment_118545663

This seems to be the article in question;

https://www.rnz.de/nachrichten/heidelberg_artikel%2C-radunfaelle-in-heidelberg-2018-gab-es-wieder-deutlich-mehr-fahrradunfaelle-_arid%2C423959.html

Ben D Bus · 28-01-2022 9:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118542253#Comment_118542253

I've stated elsewhere that I'd happily support the Galway bypass if it was accompanied by a corresponding reduction in road space inside it. Same car carrying capacity but a much nicer city centre.

magicbastarder · 29-01-2022 11:05am

Subscriber only.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/david-mcwilliams-irish-cities-future-lies-in-free-public-transport-not-electric-cars-1.4787356

Sam Russell · 29-01-2022 11:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549326#Comment_118549326

Have I not been saying exactly this for years?

Quote from article -

"What about urban public transport itself?

The best way to encourage people onto buses, trains and trams is to make them free. This could be done easily, is affordable and would constitute the biggest change to our cities since the catastrophic arrival of mass car ownership from the 1960s onwards, which has without doubt polluted, grabbed space and bullied the public realm of our cities and towns.

Free public transport – not the electric car – is the metropolitan future.

Let’s do the numbers. Although we have 2020 figures, 2019 pre-pandemic figures are more instructive. That year, a total of 294.6 million journeys were made on State-funded transport services, reflecting a 9.5 per cent increase on 2018 and an incredible 40 per cent increase since 2012. Two-thirds of these journeys were on the bus, with rail services (17 per cent) and light rail services (16 per cent) making up the rest."

Bear in mind that a very high proportion of people already have a Free Travel Pass.

Electric cars are just green washing - not a reduction of carbon emissions. Driving the kids to school a distance of 3 km in an electric SUV is not a green approach but getting them to walk or cycle is. Two tonnes of metal and batteries to transport one person or even two is not a good approach to climate change, as it consumes a large amount of energy and still takes up too much road space while moving or not moving. A 20 kg electric scooter or bike is a better approach if a push bike is too much effort.

magicbastarder · 29-01-2022 12:15pm

how much money does dublin bus make from fares, and how much from subsidies?

[Deleted User] · 29-01-2022 1:03pm

...and yet all you here vent your spleen demonising cars rather than advocating at length for further subsidisation of Public Transport.

AndrewJRenko · 29-01-2022 1:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549726#Comment_118549726

Sam Russell · 29-01-2022 1:42pm

I have been advocating for free PT for years, or alternatively nearly free to cut down on possible abuse of the system.

It is the use of SUVs to transport kids 2 or 3 km to school that exacerbates the problem, plus the inconsiderate and illegal parking. Cure that, and the problem will be noticeably be improved. Just look at the reduction of congestion during school holidays.

After that, get commuters to modify their expectation of door to door car use. P&R and walk the last km would be significant solutions. Now this is not for everyone, but if the many do it or even quite a lot do it, then the problem disappears. Now to get a significant modal shift, it might require a congestion charge, and hike in long term parking charges, but that would be mitigated by free PT.

I am not anti-car in any way. You do not have to be anti-car to see the stupidity of the effect of that the current unbridled use of cars have on our cities. I think most posters on here would consider reasonable restrictions of cars in some areas rather than an outright ban.

[Deleted User] · 29-01-2022 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549814#Comment_118549814

...because Cars are not deserving of the criticism you lot heap upon them.

I took a citybus here from one city region to another a few days ago and it was a much more pleasurable experience than anything I remember in Dublin with no anti-socials, ability to pay for ticket online, small tidy self-service kiosk at bus shelter which accepts coins, gives change along with credit and debit cards, realtime arrival time at the bus stop and online. The bus was unsurprisingly punctual.

You as a group exhaust yourselves demonising cars while doing SFA to advocate for better public transport service. If you want to get people out of cars then make the alternative more appetizing.

cgcsb · 29-01-2022 4:09pm

Free pt means less people walking and cycling and the same amount of cars

Ben D Bus · 29-01-2022 6:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118550328#Comment_118550328

That certainly seems like a real possibility. Is there any evidence from elswehere, one way or the other?

Free PT should only be introduced in conjunction with a rollout of more free P&R and the introduction of congestion charging.

[Deleted User] · 29-01-2022 7:29pm

Cheaper finance deals on cars here are around the price of a monthly public transport ticket. That is the competition. In fact some ev scooters are being advertised with monthly costs equivalent to monthly commuter tickets.

Sam Russell · 30-01-2022 11:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118550328#Comment_118550328

I know quite a few people who have free travel passes, and what it means to them is that they use the most convenient solution - the bus or train, or car, or bike, or walk. Without the FTP, they would not dream of using the bus or train. Now, using the car at high congestion time would be a no-no, and the bus or train would be used, or the journey would be delayed or cancelled. Available parking is also a major influencer in their choice.

Free public transport would have a significant effect on congestion - particularly if it was accompanied by either a congestion charge or higher and harder to find on street parking. Of course, P&R would be needed as well, particularly outside the M50.

magicbastarder · 30-01-2022 11:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118550328#Comment_118550328

to a certain extent, i suspect so. but it'd also remove a barrier to convenience for a lot of people. take my next door neighbour, i'm going to make hypothetical assumptions about her. late 50s or early 60s, i don't think i've ever seen her get on a bus. but if she did want to get on a bus, she'd have to sort out change if she wanted to pay with cash, and there's probably plenty of people who don't handle cash anymore. but if she wanted to get a leap card there'd be the hassle of buying it and having to learn how it works, etc. which precludes casual use of the bus.

i'm not saying it'd be transformative or anything, but it would make casual use of PT that little bit less hassle for people and might encourage some people who don't currently use it to try it once or twice.

one thing i did notice that when the leap card came in, it saved me money; because i'd have often found myself in town with nothing smaller than a tenner, which i'd need to break to use the bus, so i'd buy something like a packet of crisps to do so. in a way, it's a similar (slight) lowering of hassle to do it.

gjim · 30-01-2022 11:54am

I can understand making a service "free" if you've large historical sunk costs in the provision of it but it's lying idle or near idle. So open/free days in dusty museums and the like makes sense - museums are expensive to build and run and if they're empty, it a net loss for everyone.

But this is pretty much the opposite of the situation with PT in Dublin. The fundamental problem of PT in Dublin is the lack of capacity - the infrastructure isn't there to provide a reasonable service to all the people who would like the option to use PT. Making it "free" is not going to solve this fundamental issue. The only solution is to increase capital spending to increase capacity.

Anyway buses, trams and trains are already much cheaper than driving into town when you consider parking and private vehicle running costs. So the choice to drive clearly isn't driven by cost (or cost alone). Walking and cycling have a huge competitive advantage here - they're cheaper/almost free. Making PT free just means muscling into the competitive space currently occupied by walking and cycling.

[Deleted User] · 30-01-2022 12:53pm

https://www-esv.nhtsa.dot.gov/proceedings/24/files/24ESV-000058.PDF

Countering misinformation here are the conclusions from a study on the benefits of Automated Emergency Breaking in cars. AEB is now obligatory in new cars.

Conclusions:

This study shows the effectiveness and value of AEB systems, especially in the reduction of injuries and in

particular whiplash cases. The results of these and other findings have supported the implementation of an insurance

discount system for AEB systems, and also the testing of such systems with Euro NCAP and other consumer test

organisations which will encourage the proliferation of AEB within the vehicle parc.

[Deleted User] · 30-01-2022 1:03pm

If 15% of the public only use your transport service regularly and the other 85% have hurdles which make alternatives more attractive then the problem is with the service.

If cars were really so terrible there wouldn't be 2.2 million of them registered in Ireland. The figures speak for themselves.

The way people talk amongst themselves on this sub-forum it is like you are trying to strategise how to get the last few problematic laggards on to the new model of operation when actually the majority are happy to continue using the existing satisfactory solution. It isn't like the migration from Penny Farthing to Safety Bicycle or Horse and Cart to car.

[Deleted User] · 30-01-2022 1:18pm

Taken from Dublin Bus website:

● Please pay at the driver's ticket machine.

● To avail of this fare, simply present your Leap Card to the smart card reader on the right hand side as you enter the bus.

Please make sure that you have the correct change to pay for your fare, drivers cannot accept Euro notes or give change.

That's a barrier to occassional usage and onboarding to the service. Dublin Bus expect everyone gets a leap card and is surprised the Public do not comply.

I just checked for a bus from Blanch to City Centre. It shows the route online but not a chance I can buy a ticket online from the route planner. It is not a problem I have with the service here where I can proceed to Deutsche Bahn's booking engine to pay for a short distance bus ticket.

Sam Russell · 30-01-2022 1:36pm

If the average speed of buses doubles, then so does the capacity.

So reducing cars sufficiently to allow buses to travel faster improves the capacity and reduces journey time, and therefore attractiveness to casual users and benefits regular users. Now if the reduction in cars also allows to travel faster, that also increases the attractiveness of cars, so the improvement in bus transit times must be achieved by bus lanes and priority routings. It can also be achieved by curtailing parking and the imposition of a congestion charge.

Of course enforcement will be central to its success.

[Deleted User] · 30-01-2022 1:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554127#Comment_118554127

The route I chose was one with buslane pretty much all the way. You can send every car in Dublin to the scrapyard and speeds will not increase on that route.

low hanging fruit like pleasant bus stops, anti-socials removed, ease of payment, realtime position information ignored...let's ban cars.

Sam Russell · 30-01-2022 3:37pm

Not many bus routes, if any, have bus lanes over anything but a tiny distance of the end to end route. Plus, many bus lanes are filled with cars pretending to turn left.

Even the Luas is held up by cars at various points.

No-one is calling to ban cars - only restrict them in certain places and at certain times.

[Deleted User] · 30-01-2022 7:34pm

Do you think that increasing bus speeds by 100% is possible by banning cars?

If cars are banned it is self-defeating in that the buses will be stopping at each and every bus stop and will be stationary for longer as passengers board and alight including the most doddery of the population who beg to find space beyond those blocking the aisle.

Some of the most impressionable around here might take your claim at face value. How would you ever make it up to them when it turns out not to be true.

magicbastarder · 30-01-2022 7:40pm

my sister (pre covid) used to get the bus from near ongar into the city centre, and would sometimes have been sitting on the bus for 3 hours in a day; the big issue was usually when it got to around cabra, and progress would grind to a halt in heavy traffic.

so as to whether it's possible to increase bus speeds by 100%, it depends on how big a box you want to draw around your parameters.

if it's reducing a 15km journey on probably a dirty wet winter morning from 1h30m to 45m (i.e. bringing the average speed from 10km/h to 20km/h) then we're probably within the realms of possibilty of doing it; as the bus would often barely average walking speed in the city centre.

i don't know how things have changed, she left that job several years ago.

Sam Russell · 30-01-2022 7:42pm

I am merely pointing out that increasing bus speeds gives an equivalent increase in capacity. Te 100% was to make the sums easier.

Not all passengers are doddery, and buses will stop as required which is part of its transit time.

No-one is proposing banning cars - just restricting them in certain places and at certain times. Cars take up a lot of space for the number of passengers they carry.

[Deleted User] · 30-01-2022 7:46pm

"No-one is proposing banning cars".

It seems to me to be more like an operation to blow-up the bridges on the Rhine to stop the enemy's advance picking the most strategically important waypoints to pin those dasterdly car commuters at bay.

In my city back gardens of an entire street were taken which in conjunction with a tunnel through a mountain to ease access for both cars and buses to the centre of the city.

Dublin is struggling to even claim a few feet of front garden so...abrakedabra, lets ban cars

magicbastarder · 30-01-2022 7:48pm

yep, a bus driving even at walking pace in the city centre would typically be taking up the same amount of space as two cars - with probably no more than three occupants - with probably 10 times as many passengers.

Cookiemunster · 30-01-2022 8:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118555895#Comment_118555895

Please explain how increasing the speed of a fixed number of (already full) bus seats increases capacity. Only extra buses will increase capacity. That isn't reliant on their speed.

[Deleted User] · 30-01-2022 8:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118555906#Comment_118555906

@haphaphap I'm honestly struggling to understand your viewpoint.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt and based on your comments on the setup in your current city, it's actually a very real possibility that you and others here are closely aligned in terms of what the end result might look like just it's being referred to as different things.

With that in mind, can you outline what "car ban" actually means in a practical sense. Use Dublin as the example.

I'm asking because there are 3 possibilities here wrt to the car bans you keep referring to and what they might look like.

1. Restrictions on access on some streets, realignment of flows (2-way to 1-way), reassignment of freed up road space to add bus, bike and pedestrian infrastructure (may or may not still include car access, just space for this would be reduced). Through access would be maintained but through diversions away from the center. No on street parking spaces with the exception of disabled spaces.

2. No cars, anywhere, ever. Dublin becomes 100% car free inside a boundary you provide for context. Nothing fancy, just a Google map screenshot with a boundary (rough).

3. Something else

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from because you seem to be complaining about #2 being the objective while pointing out the benefits you get from #1. The disconnect is #1 is what almost everyone is aiming for but you seem opposed to what needs to be done to get it.

Cities around the world that are reducing car access

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