Census 2022 question on religion

So what?

Ticking the RCC box isn't sticking it to Atheist Ireland - it's sticking it to every non-Roman Catholic in Ireland.

And very childish.

What financial support does the Catholic church get from the state? The state supports schools with a catholic ethos as it does all other schools.

88% percent of National Schools have this 'ethos'.

Now I could give you chapter and verse on how the RCC acquired control and eventually possession of the original national schools in the late 19th century (with supporting documents) but I have a hospital appt, the important thing in the 21st century is that this country is supposed to be a Republic with a Constitution that states the State shall endow no religion. 88% of our National Schools is a hell of a lot of endowing.

Haven't time to go into Secondary schools, healthcare facilities etc etc. But we are planning on building them a great big hospital.

You complained it was being made political - well, surely you would have no objection to a person's religious beliefs being personal and something that happens outside school hours, not during facilitated by State employees.

I would have no objection at all to religion being taught outside school. in fact it would make for a stronger core of catholics with a real interest as opposed to those who just use it for a few rituals. But I still did not get an answer to my question. What support does the state give to the catholic church - the answer is none. The state funds catholic schools as it does all other schools. And the state is not building a hospital for the catholic church. It is building it for all its citizens.

Taxpayers pay for staff providing education in all national schools. That is not supporting any religion - it is providing for education. Are you saying the state should not pay the salaries of staff in all denominational schools?

How could you tell? Were there wee horns sprouting out of their heads, or something? 🙄

All denominations are reporting a significant drop in church attendance.

Yes, he never shuts up about it.

An evangelical athiest.

I am saying the State should not place people in the position where their only option is a school with a particular religious ethos.

I will go further and say that the State should not be paying staff to provide religious instruction during school hours. Which religion is immaterial.

If parents want their children instructed in a particular faith they should pay for that themselves. No reason it's can't be done after school.

You seem to have dropped the topic of the NMI.

How?

Yeah I don't get the confusion

I expect the 'no religion' figures will grow strongly again this time.

Under current legislation it will be published in full in 100 years -bit picky to complain about information being scrutinised when the vast majority of people on it will be long dead.

My grandmother who died in 1999 aged 86 has yet to have her information scrutinised as she does not appear on the 1911 census. I'll have to wait until 2025 to mine the data on her less than 3 year old self.

As a historian all I can say is census data is invaluable. Not just on people, also on occupations, literacy, housing standards etc. Because everyone answers the same questions in the same order direct comparisons can be, relatively, easily made. This would be impossible if a verity of sources had to be consulted.

And although once published they can be accessed by anyone, usually people are only interested in their own relatives. Most people either don't know or don't care about the nitty gritty details - such as the apparent outbreak of mass illiteracy between 1901 and 1911 - that's the preserve of the nerds.

Modern Ireland (which historically speaking we are in) is not my personal area but even I noticed when doing some research for an on the telly type thing that a suspiciously large number of older people who were literate in 1901 (and filled out the census form themselves) seemed to become illiterate by 1911 - some even signed with an X.

Asked a colleague who specialises in early 20th C Ireland and she explained it had to do with The Old Age Pension Act 1908, among the very fine print it stated if a person was illiterate they got a wee bit more (we are talking pence a week).

There was an awful lot of fine print in that Act. Very much of the Victorian "deserving poor" mentality but if a person could manage to tick all the boxes they could qualify for 5 shillings a week at a time when a labourer earned about 9 shillings a week. People weren't taking any chances when filling out the census forms.

Even more suspicious were the number of people who aged rapidly between 1901 and 1911 so as to be old enough for OAP. Anyone doing genealogy will be aware of instances.

Not everyone shares the viewpoint of some historians and geneaologists that private data is fair game because it is 100 or 75 years old. Grandparents may have died but their information is related to decendants and extended family who are living now, and they may not like it being online but have no say either way.

IIRC, someone complained to the DP commissioner a few years ago about the old electoral rolls being online because citizens could be so easily identified. That database was quickly taken down even though it only had names and addresses. The census has much more information.

Anyone who completed a census in the past was told it was confidential and only used for statistical purposes. That is clearly untrue and the government has decided to make citizens private data available online without permission of the owners. Each successive census has gathered more and more information, this coming census has eight new questions since the last round.

We all know that GRO records have always been public, but in the past, the process of visiting a registrars office, searching, finding and paying for copies usually meant only those looking for personal certs or genealogists & historians used the GRO. I know plenty of people who are very private and dont want their family history available at the touch of a button to a worldwide audience, information about farm sizes, income, education levels, employment, medical conditions, marital status, how they lived etc.

It is all well and good for those of use who may not have an issue with sharing data, but there are many who do not. A family may not want to share private information at some future date for example about a relative in prison, with medical or mental health issues, or many other private matters that are of no interest to anyone but the family, yet it will be available to anyone worldwide with access to online information because our government make it available.

Completing the census is a legal responsibility carrying a very onerous fine for non-compliance. If citizens are obliged to furnish so much personal information to the CSO, maybe they should have a choice about whether it can be published online at some future date and be asked for their explicit permission.

I also have an issue with private organisations who make millions in profits from personal data of citizens, provided by governments of english speaking countries around the world, but that is a topic for another thread.

Well, it does if they're in prison or in a psychiatric hospital on census night. Their presence there will be recorded, as will the fact that they are an inmate/patient rather than a staff member.

Might be suspicious, might not.

It only became compulsory to register births in Ireland in 1864 so some people would genuinely not know how old they were.

If you look at enlistment forms it says "appears to look over 18" - boy could be a well build 13 year old and enlist.

Sometimes people gamed the system, but it was often the case that, in particular, the often illiterate poor were simply puggalised by the reams of paperwork while being very aware that a pension was the only thing standing between them and the Workhouse.

Census returns for Orphanages, workhouses, Magdalene Laundries, Industrial schools are often the only available records that people ever existed.