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Census 2022 question on religion

245

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    So what?

    Ticking the RCC box isn't sticking it to Atheist Ireland - it's sticking it to every non-Roman Catholic in Ireland.

    And very childish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    somebody who thinks along those lines should'nt be allowed access to sharpened pencils.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭crossman47


    What financial support does the Catholic church get from the state? The state supports schools with a catholic ethos as it does all other schools.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you were at a meeting in work where someone brought up the changes to the census question on religion?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    88% percent of National Schools have this 'ethos'.

    Now I could give you chapter and verse on how the RCC acquired control and eventually possession of the original national schools in the late 19th century (with supporting documents) but I have a hospital appt, the important thing in the 21st century is that this country is supposed to be a Republic with a Constitution that states the State shall endow no religion. 88% of our National Schools is a hell of a lot of endowing.

    Haven't time to go into Secondary schools, healthcare facilities etc etc. But we are planning on building them a great big hospital.

    You complained it was being made political - well, surely you would have no objection to a person's religious beliefs being personal and something that happens outside school hours, not during facilitated by State employees.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    It could have happened.

    Just like Enda could have met a man with two pints.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭crossman47


    I would have no objection at all to religion being taught outside school. in fact it would make for a stronger core of catholics with a real interest as opposed to those who just use it for a few rituals. But I still did not get an answer to my question. What support does the state give to the catholic church - the answer is none. The state funds catholic schools as it does all other schools. And the state is not building a hospital for the catholic church. It is building it for all its citizens.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭Choochtown



    If I owed the state 1.3 BILLION euro as redress for institutional child abuse and didn't pay it, I'd consider it financial support. Wouldn't you?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭Choochtown



    ...Back to the original post and a big "well done" to Atheist Ireland for getting a very misleading question changed into a much fairer and more straightforward one and most importantly one which I think will give much more accurate results.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I might also ask whether this institution was ideally suited to the education and care of the large majority of our younger children?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    We're not trying to maximise numbers, we're trying to accurately reflect numbers. That is exactly the way we should all approach a census.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Taxpayers pay for the staff in 88% of total number of national schools.

    These schools have a Catholic ethos. Roman Catholicism is literally promulgated in them.

    But apparently that is not State support.

    Geddit away with that rubbish.


    As for the NMH - is the State paying for it? yes.

    Will the State own it? No.

    Who will own it? St Vincent Holdings.

    Who are St Vincent Holdings? A public limited company holding company with charitable status which the Sisters of Charity state will be the recipient of all their shares in St Vincent's Healthcare Group.

    " Sr Patricia Lenihan, the superior general of the RSC, on May 8th [2020] that the congregation “is confident that the SVHG board, management and staff will continue to provide acute healthcare services that foster Mary Aikenhead’s [the founder of the order] mission and core values” strongly suggests that a Catholic ethos will be maintained in St Vincent’s Holdings CLG."


    State constructs and funds hospital that will uphold the mission and core values of a Roman Catholic order of nuns.


    Nothing to see here says crossman47. That's not the State supporting that is... just... not...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Taxpayers pay for staff providing education in all national schools. That is not supporting any religion - it is providing for education. Are you saying the state should not pay the salaries of staff in all denominational schools?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    It is directly supporting that religion if part of that education involves religious instruction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,470 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    How could you tell? Were there wee horns sprouting out of their heads, or something? 🙄

    All denominations are reporting a significant drop in church attendance.

    Some “fear a possible disaster”, he said, with “fewer people practising, financial difficulties, children and families further distanced from the sacraments and congregations permanently migrating to the comfort of online attendance”.

    “There may even be a growing realisation that, although much of what we normally do as church was absent these last months, for many people, it was not really missed,” said Bishop Duignan.

    Others, he said, speak of the pandemic as simply hastening the decline of the Catholic Church in Irish life, one “that was already quite evident – [but] fast-forwarding it a decade or more”.

    Scrap the cap!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,470 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The state pays for 100% of the school day.

    It gives 10% of that school day, free of charge, over to churches to inculcate innocent little children with their lies.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Yes, he never shuts up about it.

    An evangelical athiest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,470 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Not buying it tbh

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I am saying the State should not place people in the position where their only option is a school with a particular religious ethos.

    I will go further and say that the State should not be paying staff to provide religious instruction during school hours. Which religion is immaterial.

    If parents want their children instructed in a particular faith they should pay for that themselves. No reason it's can't be done after school.


    You seem to have dropped the topic of the NMI.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    "And so it has turned out. In 2012, 91 per cent of primary schools were Catholic. In 2022 the figure is 89 per cent. My bleak suggestion that a mere 50 schools might be divested was overly optimistic. The number of new multidenominational schools created under the divestment process stands at 20."

    subscriber only.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-ireland-is-no-longer-catholic-why-are-our-schools-1.4784633



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,457 ✭✭✭✭lawred2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,457 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Yeah I don't get the confusion



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,470 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    A campaign was launched in Dublin on Thursday morning urging people who do not have a religion, or who no longer practise, to mark ‘no religion’ on the census form on Sunday 3rd April next.

    This latest census, the first since 2016, was scheduled to take place on April 24th last year but was postponed due to the pandemic.

    The Humanist Association of Ireland (HAI) has called on relevant people to mark ‘no religion’ on the census form this year to ensure “a fairer representation of the non-religious” when it comes to building “ a more inclusive future for all Irish citizens”.

    I expect the 'no religion' figures will grow strongly again this time.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Dont see why we need a census every five years, or at all tbh.

    The government already have extensive information about citizens through Revenue, social protection, HSE, dept education, property taxes, motor tax, and probably other sources like RTB and PSRA which has data about people renting homes and commercial premises. They have data from medical cards, pensions, electoral registers, passports and the back-door identity card known as MyGovID which is needed to do anything with a government agency.

    What else do they need to know to make future planning easier for them? Its not like the last century when they did a census and information had to be collected and collated manually with no IT systems to process data.

    If all the data about births, deaths, marriages, cohabitation, divorces, employment & unemployment, property & vehicle ownership, etc etc is already available in government databases, what else do they need and for what? They even collected RSI numbers for covid shots so they know who did & didnt get vaccines.

    All thats left is religious affiliation and why do they need to know that for planning purposes?

    Also the fact that census information is anonymised by the CSO is meaningless because it will be published in full at some future date and will be available for public scrutiny whether people agree with that or not.

    Big Brother surveillance has crept in so gradually that we didn't even notice it, and all the hype about GDPR protecting our privacy is bull because we all know that everything we do is recorded somewhere. We have less and less privacy every year because of some new 'regulation' and nobody seems to question that or think its an issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,741 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,741 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I disagree entirely. The census is more than a decision support system for the government, it is a cohesive, transparent and openly available reference about our society for our society and the world at large. It also illustrates how we, as a society, are changing over time from a social and demographic perspective.

    While you might think GDPR is bull (admittedly it can feel like a pain in the arse by times), given the combination of unscrupulous social media companies couple with growing use of AI based decision making systems, it is entirely appropriate albeit far from perfect. Worth comparing where we are with the states, where they're seeing plenty of social problems due to mismanagement of personal financial data. The follow article from the MIT technology review is a good example of this; https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/06/17/1026519/racial-bias-noisy-data-credit-scores-mortgage-loans-fairness-machine-learning/



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    They have data from medical cards, pensions, electoral registers, passports and the back-door identity card known as MyGovID which is needed to do anything with a government agency.

    there are many questions which capture info which is not captured by the above. and all in one place, without the issues of cross-correlating data. commuting habits, for example.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Under current legislation it will be published in full in 100 years -bit picky to complain about information being scrutinised when the vast majority of people on it will be long dead.

    My grandmother who died in 1999 aged 86 has yet to have her information scrutinised as she does not appear on the 1911 census. I'll have to wait until 2025 to mine the data on her less than 3 year old self.


    As a historian all I can say is census data is invaluable. Not just on people, also on occupations, literacy, housing standards etc. Because everyone answers the same questions in the same order direct comparisons can be, relatively, easily made. This would be impossible if a verity of sources had to be consulted.

    And although once published they can be accessed by anyone, usually people are only interested in their own relatives. Most people either don't know or don't care about the nitty gritty details - such as the apparent outbreak of mass illiteracy between 1901 and 1911 - that's the preserve of the nerds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    such as the apparent outbreak of mass illiteracy between 1901 and 1911 

    tell me more



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Modern Ireland (which historically speaking we are in) is not my personal area but even I noticed when doing some research for an on the telly type thing that a suspiciously large number of older people who were literate in 1901 (and filled out the census form themselves) seemed to become illiterate by 1911 - some even signed with an X.

    Asked a colleague who specialises in early 20th C Ireland and she explained it had to do with The Old Age Pension Act 1908, among the very fine print it stated if a person was illiterate they got a wee bit more (we are talking pence a week).

    There was an awful lot of fine print in that Act. Very much of the Victorian "deserving poor" mentality but if a person could manage to tick all the boxes they could qualify for 5 shillings a week at a time when a labourer earned about 9 shillings a week. People weren't taking any chances when filling out the census forms.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    OAPs gaming the system 100 years ago. I like it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Even more suspicious were the number of people who aged rapidly between 1901 and 1911 so as to be old enough for OAP. Anyone doing genealogy will be aware of instances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,155 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    I think it's worded so bluntly because we have so many people filling out the form where English isn't their first language



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Not everyone shares the viewpoint of some historians and geneaologists that private data is fair game because it is 100 or 75 years old. Grandparents may have died but their information is related to decendants and extended family who are living now, and they may not like it being online but have no say either way.

    IIRC, someone complained to the DP commissioner a few years ago about the old electoral rolls being online because citizens could be so easily identified. That database was quickly taken down even though it only had names and addresses. The census has much more information.

    Anyone who completed a census in the past was told it was confidential and only used for statistical purposes. That is clearly untrue and the government has decided to make citizens private data available online without permission of the owners. Each successive census has gathered more and more information, this coming census has eight new questions since the last round.

    We all know that GRO records have always been public, but in the past, the process of visiting a registrars office, searching, finding and paying for copies usually meant only those looking for personal certs or genealogists & historians used the GRO. I know plenty of people who are very private and dont want their family history available at the touch of a button to a worldwide audience, information about farm sizes, income, education levels, employment, medical conditions, marital status, how they lived etc.

    It is all well and good for those of use who may not have an issue with sharing data, but there are many who do not. A family may not want to share private information at some future date for example about a relative in prison, with medical or mental health issues, or many other private matters that are of no interest to anyone but the family, yet it will be available to anyone worldwide with access to online information because our government make it available.

    Completing the census is a legal responsibility carrying a very onerous fine for non-compliance. If citizens are obliged to furnish so much personal information to the CSO, maybe they should have a choice about whether it can be published online at some future date and be asked for their explicit permission.

    I also have an issue with private organisations who make millions in profits from personal data of citizens, provided by governments of english speaking countries around the world, but that is a topic for another thread.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    It is all well and good for those of use who may not have an issue with sharing data, but there are many who do not. A family may not want to share private information at some future date for example about a relative in prison, with medical or mental health issues, or many other private matters that are of no interest to anyone but the family, yet it will be available to anyone worldwide with access to online information because our government make it available.

    Does the census make any reference to a persons prison records or mental health though? If not, I fail to see the relevance of your point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Well, it does if they're in prison or in a psychiatric hospital on census night. Their presence there will be recorded, as will the fact that they are an inmate/patient rather than a staff member.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,470 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I can't devote my time to the aul' racism Father. Only the farm takes up most of my time and I like a cup of tea in the evenings.

    I think you'll find the evil Simple English campaign is making forms easier to fill in, the bastards.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Good point, I wonder what circumstances other than being a child you can fill out the census on someone else's behalf? e.g. hospitals or nursing homes where a person may not be able to fill in the forms. I know there is a separate prison census but my understanding was that it was at population rather than individual level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The practical reality is that in households the census form is usually filled out by one person and we rely on that person to give accurate answers in relation to everyone in the house. It has been argued previously on this forum that this has in the past resulted in undercounting of no-religionists.

    For institutions like hospitals, prisons, boarding schools, etc. there's a "communal form" which the institution manager fills out. It gives the name of everyone in the institution on census night, but no other data about them. The manager is also required to give each person an individual form which they should fill out with their personal data - this is the same data as would be asked about individuals in the household form. The manager should collect these and return them with the communal form.

    (I don't know how they cope with, e.g. people who are in intensive care, or otherwise not in a position to fill out a form. Perhaps they ask relatives, or perhaps the hospital registrar completes the individual form as best they can from hospital records, or perhaps they just send back a blank form with a note as to the circumstances, and leave it up to the CSO to chase for data if they wish. The number of people in this situation is probably not statistically significant, and the validity of the census data is not materially impaired by knowing what religious identity, if any, they claim or how long their commute to work is.)



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Interesting, I see that the communal form extends to things like B&Bs, Hotels, Campsites etc... I'd guess most prisoners would put their home address in the personal form. Agreed it has no relevance to religious identity, just idle curiosity on my part.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    We had some good fun getting the family details for the 1901 and 1911 surveys. My grandfather and grand uncle were both, rather unusually for rural Ireland, listed as pilots in the 1911 survey which was a good trick for two gents who most likely had never seen an aeroplane.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    did they work on boats? Boats have pilots as well.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Got it in one! Pilots for Sligo and Galway bays.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Might be suspicious, might not.

    It only became compulsory to register births in Ireland in 1864 so some people would genuinely not know how old they were.

    If you look at enlistment forms it says "appears to look over 18" - boy could be a well build 13 year old and enlist.

    Sometimes people gamed the system, but it was often the case that, in particular, the often illiterate poor were simply puggalised by the reams of paperwork while being very aware that a pension was the only thing standing between them and the Workhouse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Tbh - as a society I think more than enough damage has been done by the fetish of secrecy and if all someone has to worry about is a stranger could find out the size of a farm holding 100 years ago they have little to be troubling them.

    Income is not recorded on either the 1901 or 1911 Irish census. It is recorded on US Federal Census, at least the ones I have looked at of the 20s/30s/40s. I know what my grandmother's brother earned in 1939 as a ticket clerk in Grand Central Station. I don't think his grand children mind tbh. They certainly haven't said so.

    Part of the campaign for women's suffrage was a refusal to be recorded in the 1911 census. As well as 'spoiling' the form, moving from place to place all night, hiding in sheds, large groups of women held all night parties in parks - Wimbledon and Hyde gatherings were particularly impressive - and therefore could not be recorded as there was no "usually lives at this address" section. The onerous fine was £5 or a month in gaol. This could not be enforced against those having a picnic in full public view in a park.


    Census and electoral rolls are two completely different things. It does your argument no good to conflate the two. I would also have concerns about the availability of people's address'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Census returns for Orphanages, workhouses, Magdalene Laundries, Industrial schools are often the only available records that people ever existed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    The information on the 1901 and 1911 census forms are very basic compared to the information being gathered by recent census forms and they also contain peoples addresses. It seems that people moved around a lot in urban areas at the time, but that may not be the case for farming communities so their addresses could still be the same after many years.

    What some call secrecy others may consider confidential family information and they may not wish it to be shared, whether it is farm sizes, income, religion or anything else that is their own private data.

    Like many others, I have looked at the online census and GRO records from time to time. However, that personal data was given in confidence to a government agency and for all we know, the people who provided it all those years ago might be horrified that it is now online for anyone to see, and it was put there by the very government agency who collected it "in confidence".

    Also, some families might be upset or annoyed that it is online and they deserve to have their views considered as much as those who want a free for all on personal information.

    I would say that most people are happy enough to provide the census data to the CSO for statistical purposes, but as it is personal data, citizens should have the option of having it published online or not, albeit at some future date. Just my opinion.



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