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Census 2022 question on religion

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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe


    Taxpayers pay for the staff in 88% of total number of national schools.

    These schools have a Catholic ethos. Roman Catholicism is literally promulgated in them.

    But apparently that is not State support.

    Geddit away with that rubbish.


    As for the NMH - is the State paying for it? yes.

    Will the State own it? No.

    Who will own it? St Vincent Holdings.

    Who are St Vincent Holdings? A public limited company holding company with charitable status which the Sisters of Charity state will be the recipient of all their shares in St Vincent's Healthcare Group.

    " Sr Patricia Lenihan, the superior general of the RSC, on May 8th [2020] that the congregation “is confident that the SVHG board, management and staff will continue to provide acute healthcare services that foster Mary Aikenhead’s [the founder of the order] mission and core values” strongly suggests that a Catholic ethos will be maintained in St Vincent’s Holdings CLG."


    State constructs and funds hospital that will uphold the mission and core values of a Roman Catholic order of nuns.


    Nothing to see here says crossman47. That's not the State supporting that is... just... not...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭ crossman47


    Taxpayers pay for staff providing education in all national schools. That is not supporting any religion - it is providing for education. Are you saying the state should not pay the salaries of staff in all denominational schools?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    It is directly supporting that religion if part of that education involves religious instruction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,983 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    How could you tell? Were there wee horns sprouting out of their heads, or something? 🙄

    All denominations are reporting a significant drop in church attendance.

    Some “fear a possible disaster”, he said, with “fewer people practising, financial difficulties, children and families further distanced from the sacraments and congregations permanently migrating to the comfort of online attendance”.

    “There may even be a growing realisation that, although much of what we normally do as church was absent these last months, for many people, it was not really missed,” said Bishop Duignan.

    Others, he said, speak of the pandemic as simply hastening the decline of the Catholic Church in Irish life, one “that was already quite evident – [but] fast-forwarding it a decade or more”.

    Make our National Maternity Hospital Public and Secular

    #MakeNMHOurs

    Annoy your TDs now!!!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,983 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    The state pays for 100% of the school day.

    It gives 10% of that school day, free of charge, over to churches to inculcate innocent little children with their lies.

    Make our National Maternity Hospital Public and Secular

    #MakeNMHOurs

    Annoy your TDs now!!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭ JimmyVik


    Yes, he never shuts up about it.

    An evangelical athiest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,983 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    Not buying it tbh

    Make our National Maternity Hospital Public and Secular

    #MakeNMHOurs

    Annoy your TDs now!!!



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe


    I am saying the State should not place people in the position where their only option is a school with a particular religious ethos.

    I will go further and say that the State should not be paying staff to provide religious instruction during school hours. Which religion is immaterial.

    If parents want their children instructed in a particular faith they should pay for that themselves. No reason it's can't be done after school.


    You seem to have dropped the topic of the NMI.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 41,237 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    "And so it has turned out. In 2012, 91 per cent of primary schools were Catholic. In 2022 the figure is 89 per cent. My bleak suggestion that a mere 50 schools might be divested was overly optimistic. The number of new multidenominational schools created under the divestment process stands at 20."

    subscriber only.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-ireland-is-no-longer-catholic-why-are-our-schools-1.4784633



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,817 ✭✭✭✭ lawred2




  • Registered Users Posts: 35,318 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users Posts: 22,817 ✭✭✭✭ lawred2


    Yeah I don't get the confusion



  • Registered Users Posts: 35,318 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users Posts: 25,983 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    A campaign was launched in Dublin on Thursday morning urging people who do not have a religion, or who no longer practise, to mark ‘no religion’ on the census form on Sunday 3rd April next.

    This latest census, the first since 2016, was scheduled to take place on April 24th last year but was postponed due to the pandemic.

    The Humanist Association of Ireland (HAI) has called on relevant people to mark ‘no religion’ on the census form this year to ensure “a fairer representation of the non-religious” when it comes to building “ a more inclusive future for all Irish citizens”.

    I expect the 'no religion' figures will grow strongly again this time.

    Make our National Maternity Hospital Public and Secular

    #MakeNMHOurs

    Annoy your TDs now!!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭ mrslancaster


    Dont see why we need a census every five years, or at all tbh.

    The government already have extensive information about citizens through Revenue, social protection, HSE, dept education, property taxes, motor tax, and probably other sources like RTB and PSRA which has data about people renting homes and commercial premises. They have data from medical cards, pensions, electoral registers, passports and the back-door identity card known as MyGovID which is needed to do anything with a government agency.

    What else do they need to know to make future planning easier for them? Its not like the last century when they did a census and information had to be collected and collated manually with no IT systems to process data.

    If all the data about births, deaths, marriages, cohabitation, divorces, employment & unemployment, property & vehicle ownership, etc etc is already available in government databases, what else do they need and for what? They even collected RSI numbers for covid shots so they know who did & didnt get vaccines.

    All thats left is religious affiliation and why do they need to know that for planning purposes?

    Also the fact that census information is anonymised by the CSO is meaningless because it will be published in full at some future date and will be available for public scrutiny whether people agree with that or not.

    Big Brother surveillance has crept in so gradually that we didn't even notice it, and all the hype about GDPR protecting our privacy is bull because we all know that everything we do is recorded somewhere. We have less and less privacy every year because of some new 'regulation' and nobody seems to question that or think its an issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,472 ✭✭✭ Quantum Erasure




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,472 ✭✭✭ Quantum Erasure




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    I disagree entirely. The census is more than a decision support system for the government, it is a cohesive, transparent and openly available reference about our society for our society and the world at large. It also illustrates how we, as a society, are changing over time from a social and demographic perspective.

    While you might think GDPR is bull (admittedly it can feel like a pain in the arse by times), given the combination of unscrupulous social media companies couple with growing use of AI based decision making systems, it is entirely appropriate albeit far from perfect. Worth comparing where we are with the states, where they're seeing plenty of social problems due to mismanagement of personal financial data. The follow article from the MIT technology review is a good example of this; https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/06/17/1026519/racial-bias-noisy-data-credit-scores-mortgage-loans-fairness-machine-learning/



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 41,237 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    They have data from medical cards, pensions, electoral registers, passports and the back-door identity card known as MyGovID which is needed to do anything with a government agency.

    there are many questions which capture info which is not captured by the above. and all in one place, without the issues of cross-correlating data. commuting habits, for example.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 35,318 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail


    such as the apparent outbreak of mass illiteracy between 1901 and 1911 

    tell me more



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe


    Modern Ireland (which historically speaking we are in) is not my personal area but even I noticed when doing some research for an on the telly type thing that a suspiciously large number of older people who were literate in 1901 (and filled out the census form themselves) seemed to become illiterate by 1911 - some even signed with an X.

    Asked a colleague who specialises in early 20th C Ireland and she explained it had to do with The Old Age Pension Act 1908, among the very fine print it stated if a person was illiterate they got a wee bit more (we are talking pence a week).

    There was an awful lot of fine print in that Act. Very much of the Victorian "deserving poor" mentality but if a person could manage to tick all the boxes they could qualify for 5 shillings a week at a time when a labourer earned about 9 shillings a week. People weren't taking any chances when filling out the census forms.



  • Registered Users Posts: 35,318 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail


    OAPs gaming the system 100 years ago. I like it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭ crossman47


    Even more suspicious were the number of people who aged rapidly between 1901 and 1911 so as to be old enough for OAP. Anyone doing genealogy will be aware of instances.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,994 ✭✭✭✭ Sleeper12


    I think it's worded so bluntly because we have so many people filling out the form where English isn't their first language



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭ mrslancaster


    Not everyone shares the viewpoint of some historians and geneaologists that private data is fair game because it is 100 or 75 years old. Grandparents may have died but their information is related to decendants and extended family who are living now, and they may not like it being online but have no say either way.

    IIRC, someone complained to the DP commissioner a few years ago about the old electoral rolls being online because citizens could be so easily identified. That database was quickly taken down even though it only had names and addresses. The census has much more information.

    Anyone who completed a census in the past was told it was confidential and only used for statistical purposes. That is clearly untrue and the government has decided to make citizens private data available online without permission of the owners. Each successive census has gathered more and more information, this coming census has eight new questions since the last round.

    We all know that GRO records have always been public, but in the past, the process of visiting a registrars office, searching, finding and paying for copies usually meant only those looking for personal certs or genealogists & historians used the GRO. I know plenty of people who are very private and dont want their family history available at the touch of a button to a worldwide audience, information about farm sizes, income, education levels, employment, medical conditions, marital status, how they lived etc.

    It is all well and good for those of use who may not have an issue with sharing data, but there are many who do not. A family may not want to share private information at some future date for example about a relative in prison, with medical or mental health issues, or many other private matters that are of no interest to anyone but the family, yet it will be available to anyone worldwide with access to online information because our government make it available.

    Completing the census is a legal responsibility carrying a very onerous fine for non-compliance. If citizens are obliged to furnish so much personal information to the CSO, maybe they should have a choice about whether it can be published online at some future date and be asked for their explicit permission.

    I also have an issue with private organisations who make millions in profits from personal data of citizens, provided by governments of english speaking countries around the world, but that is a topic for another thread.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    It is all well and good for those of use who may not have an issue with sharing data, but there are many who do not. A family may not want to share private information at some future date for example about a relative in prison, with medical or mental health issues, or many other private matters that are of no interest to anyone but the family, yet it will be available to anyone worldwide with access to online information because our government make it available.

    Does the census make any reference to a persons prison records or mental health though? If not, I fail to see the relevance of your point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,325 ✭✭✭✭ Peregrinus


    Well, it does if they're in prison or in a psychiatric hospital on census night. Their presence there will be recorded, as will the fact that they are an inmate/patient rather than a staff member.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,983 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    I can't devote my time to the aul' racism Father. Only the farm takes up most of my time and I like a cup of tea in the evenings.

    I think you'll find the evil Simple English campaign is making forms easier to fill in, the bastards.

    Make our National Maternity Hospital Public and Secular

    #MakeNMHOurs

    Annoy your TDs now!!!



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