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Will road projects speed up when the Greens are voted out?

24

Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I thought only something like 7% of traffic actually crosses Galway?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭LillySV


    7% of what traffic … we can run many surveys And twist the results on whatever parameter we want … but fact is that that anyone from majority of country wanting to go to moycullen.. oughterard …clifden ..round stone.. letterfrack etc all have to come through Galway city … which is crazy … adds to the traffic, increases smog and increases pollution ..



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    So she is not a TD and therefore is not part of the coalition.

    So because the roads are more dangerous because of the increase in cars, we need to increase the number of roads and therefore the number if cars?

    I see a flaw with that logic.

    Still, I'm not seeing any example of where the greens as a coalition partner have delayed any road projects (which I thought is what the thread is supposed to be about!)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭steeler j


    A lot of roads are dangerous because of bad alignment as well and a lot of people need to drive to places public transport does not work for everyone

    Post edited by steeler j on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭LillySV


    She’s a Green Party member , her party is in coalition … the fact that she isn’t a td doesn’t mean that therefore she has no say in the party or isn’t working as part of their game plan does it ? Anyways I didn’t start or name this thread but it’s referring to roads being sped up if greens voted out… it didn’t specify Green Party elected tds only



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Yep, that claim is blatantly untrue.

    They object to everything in Urban Ireland as well. Including Intensive Care Units.

    An out-of-tune choir of septuagenarian, backward-thinking gombeens.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/objections-to-mater-hospital-s-plan-for-pandemic-treatment-facility-1.4692038

    https://www.thejournal.ie/mater-hospital-extension-block-an-taisce-5566284-Oct2021/



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i don't understand how the mater would have a new building partly "operational by end of Q1/start of Q2 2022.”

    and colour me sceptical about their intentions. were i to be (god forbid) cynical, what is the purpose of this building between now and a 'future pandemic'? sounds to me like they're using covid as a trojan horse for a not insignificant expansion. cos sure as shinola, this is not intended for use exclusively as a pandemic ward.

    maybe i'm a septugenarian too.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i can't say it's a topic i know all the ins and outs of, but i know a couple of people living in galway (mainly over salthill side) and their attitude is that yeah, if they spend €600m/€1bn, whatever this is going to cost, they'll still need to make significant and much needed investment in public transport in galway. whereas this road won't really address that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭markpb


    Assuming you’re right and the road is needed, we can say with almost absolute certainty that the new road will create extra road trips which will eventually cause additional congestion in the area. What then? Another bypass?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭LillySV


    No doubt that’s true for Galway city but for the whole west, this road was needed decades ago to join up the rural areas with rest of country . I believe there’s lots of complaints in regards to the last version of the road … more of a distributor road than a bypass …. But the way I see it is any option that can be achieved that will stop unnecessary traffic coming into the city, all the Better



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,759 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    Sounds like some people in rural Ireland can't wait for more roads so that they become Greater Dublin. They love gridlock, noise pollution, air pollution, car dependency, hyper competition for schools, creches, sky high house prices, ... no more peace and quiet, more road deaths, drink driving, ...destruction of wildlife and habitats ...

    Didn't even mention climate.

    You don't know what you got till it's gone ...

    They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Gotta take the rough with the smooth. The world is screwed anyway. Lets try to make the most of whats left. As for adding gridlock. Do me a favour.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    This thread was originally asked if infrastructure projects would speed up if the greens were voted out (hint: look at the thread title).

    She is not elected to the Dáil nor has she done anything to delay the Galway project - she is thinking about doing something. Have you a better example of the greens delaying an infrastructre project?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,759 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    Children's hospital location is an absolute disaster. It's like they took the access and parking problems of Crumlin hospital and made it 10 times worse and learned nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭LillySV


    Well if your goin to get into semantics . Here’s a link showing Eamon Ryan making statements regarding the Galway ring road , where he considers city dwellers without any consideration of all the folks further out west . The link also shows him holding up limerick road

    https://www.thejournal.ie/galway-ring-road-approval-5623696-Dec2021/?amp=1



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭markpb


    It's almost as if there were considerations other than drivers when choosing the location of a hospital! Reminder folks: it's a hospital, not a car park.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Oh dear god. Ill just have to wander to St James with my broken leg in the Luas so. Or wait 2 hours for an ambulance.

    The practicalities are endless.... i could even cycle in!!

    But hey, cars and car parks are evil



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    If more roads are needed after the bypass is built and public transportation is put in place according to the Galway Transport Strategy, then yes, of course we build them.

    If there isn't enough space in a hospital to see all the patients that need medical attention, you don't scold the patients and send them packing. You have to invest, build more rooms and hire more staff. When capacity is met again, as it inevitably is with a growing population, you repeat the process as many times as necessary, including building a whole new hospital if and when needed.

    Separately, as to your statement that hospitals are not car parks, as someone who works in a hospital environment, the families of sick patients often come a fair distance to see their loved ones. This means cars are generally the only practical option for them, and they need some place to leave them. You may be dismissive of the concept of making their lives a little easier in very unpleasant times, but it's not unreasonable to expect a newly-designed national hospital to be in a location that is relatively easily accessible to people who don't live on the Luas line or the relevant Dublin Bus route (ie, the vast majority of the country, who will be travelling by car under any realistic future scenario).



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it's the national children's hospital, and building it deep enough into dublin city when it could have been placed on the outskirts - when almost by definition it has to serve patients and family for whom public transport will not be an option - is a decision i still cannot fathom.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84 ✭✭TnxM17


    Thats a very interesting analogy you put there for your car centric view, but not sure its the one you wanted to make.

    Because they don't just "invest, build more rooms and hire more staff" in hospitals. There is a full range of services and supports so that people do not end up in the hospital setting.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    And yet hospitals still do not have enough capacity even with all those extra services and supports. So we still have to add more capacity to the hospitals.

    That doesn't mean the hospital was a failure, or that building it in the first place was the wrong choice. No matter how healthy you keep people with extra supports, primary care, etc, a growing population inevitably means more people will get sick, and a hospital that was under capacity when it was built will eventually be over capacity and in need of expansion.

    Just like roads.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Just like roads.

    building hospitals does not make people sick. building roads creates traffic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    Building hospitals doesn't make people sick, any more than building roads forces people to get in cars and drive on them.

    Just like building roads, building hospitals draws people into an area by increasing the population which can be supported, leading to a steady increase in users until the hospital is eventually over capacity. In the same way, building roads increases the desirability of an area and spurs economic development, leading to more people using the road until it is eventually over capacity.

    Public health investment can reduce the number of people needing to go to hospital, like public transport investment can reduce the number of people needing to drive. However, in both cases, regardless of the investment in alternatives, the population growth will still require an expansion of the underlying infrastructure.

    There is nothing wrong or abnormal about this. Cities grow, and countries grow. Growth is good. Infrastructure has to grow too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,878 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    I think people need to remember that in the last opinion poll, i think the examiner yep it was…on January 9th the greens went from 4% to 3% approval rating.

    I think the pandemic has shown them up to be one trick ponies… adept at pointing and roaring at problems but in-adept at offering real, workable and implementable solutions..

    the empty vessel makes the most noise is a very applicable and appropriate proverb with which to describe the greens unfortunately.. shouldn’t be let anywhere near the possibility to have decision making governance or influence in this state again… a disaster of a collective…

    We need to get going and investing in our welfare… transport being one…let’s get public transportation designed and built to suit our populations requirements….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭markpb


    Building roads absolutely, empirically encourages (not forces) people to drive more. People will raise jobs a further distance away if the roads make the trip shorter. People will go to shops or entertainment that is further away if the roads facilitate it. People will take more day trips or weekend trips away if they can get there more easily by motorway instead of on congested local roads. If the M50 did not exist, would we see the same number of people travelling across the city and back for work each day?

    None of these are bad things by themselves but they show that building roads adds more traffic. Building hospitals does not directly (or even indirectly in any great proportion) increase the number of times people go to hospital, its a ridiculous comparison.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    Well actually the Greens sought and got a commitment on €1 million a day on active travel infrastructure, and the remaining transport budget to have a 2:1 split between public transport and roads. In addition, the NDP requires transport projects to be assessed on their impact on emissions.


    So they very much DO have a role to play in why roads projects are being needlessly delayed. You would not see such a paltry amount of money being spent on our creaking roads network if Ryan and his cronies were not in power.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,508 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Still no.

    The Greens have nothing to do with the emissions assessment. That’s an international treaty obligation that the Irish government entered into under the Paris Agreement - a treaty ratified by a Dáil that had zero Green TDs sitting in the room, let alone in Government.

    The 2:1 budget split is pretty easy to achieve when there are massive capital projects in public transport that pre-date the Greens like Dart Underground and Metro that far exceed the cost of every road that people claim the Greens have “delayed”.

    And that million a day on cycling and walking facilities is not taking from the roads budget - much of the spend is connected with construction of new roads. If adding cycle-lanes gets road improvements done, I’m all for cycle-lanes, even if I personally have zero interest in cycling.

    Or, if it helps, you can look at it more selfishly: every person who gets out of their car and onto a bike (or a bus) frees up space on the roads, and unless you’ve got long-term investments in the concrete industry, then as a driver, reduction of road-traffic levels should be your main goal, not “building roads”.

    Once you stop looking for bogeymen, the real reasons aren’t hard to see: an understaffed planning organisation, a slow appeals process, and a shortage of funds from the Exchequer once planning has been obtained. (I don’t consider NIMBYs a problem: it’s only the slowness of the legal appeals process that makes them an issue).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Doesn't have to be that way. For instance if a bypass of a village also means the old Main st. is pedestrianized then people get an enhanced living environment. New roads doesn't have to mean more roads.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,663 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    There’s an obsession amongst hardline environmentalists and indeed some Green Party members of using comparisons with North American highway widening schemes and urban highway expansion plans in other countries as an argument against road development. Sure adding another lane to Interstate 405 in Los Angeles only increases congestion. Adding another lane to the M50 would have the same result and you could use the North American comparison.

    Where this argument falls down is that a very small amount of projects fall under these criteria in Ireland. No one is proposing widening the M50 or the N40 to address congestion. In the NDP, I would categorise the Galway Ring Road and the approach roads to Dublin widening as roads being touted as solutions to address urban congestion and where induced demand is an argument against their development. That’s 7 of the 45 projects in the plan. Upgrading the N17 or N24 can’t be compared to widening urban freeways. There will be an increase in traffic, but it’s comfortably within the design spec of the road and it will take journeys off less safe routes and into one safe trunk route. The vast majority of the inter urban network in Ireland has no congestion and is doing exactly what it was intended to do and the new roads projects (upgrading the N17, N20, N4, N21 etc) will be the same. They’ll free up towns from traffic and provide fit for purpose routes for long distance traffic.

    As for the climate argument, not building a bypass of Abbeyfeale will not address the climate issue which is global in nature and will only be addressed through a global response. It’s not fair that Ireland has to concede it’s high quality of life in order to feel better about ourselves while serious emitters continue to do nothing. Per capita emissions in Ireland are already half of those in North America so it seems we have done enough to be proud of ourselves for now, maybe it’s their turn to have a lash at cutting their emissions, and in Ireland focus on low hanging fruit such as having a rail network that’s 98% powered by diesel, burning coal and bunker fuel to make electricity, having no functional system for planning offshore wind turbines etc.



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