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Do men need a license to be allowed socialise (MOD NOTE IN OP)

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    Just on the issue of men complimenting women who they dont know, and it being called out as being wrong.

    I was wondering how this may affect how relationships develop between young peolple in the future?

    How many people have met their future partner which may have started from just a small compliment as strangers? Maybe something like a man complimenting a woman on having a nice smile who serves him at a deli or something?

    Maybe this is ok? But I wonder will their now be that question on mens minds if it is something that may be considered as harassment now? Maybe this wont happen, but with 3 sons and a daughter myself I do wonder how things will be in the future for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Sorry, but who is it that buys all of the women's magazines like Cosmo etc who tell women they need to look younger, their bodies need to be firmer, they need this miracle hydrating skin cream, they need this or that? The top 5 trends that are about to take over etc.

    Some current articles on their website include: "Ask your crush these 30 questions, seriously." "Our 7-day Dirty Talk challenge is here". "A psychic predicted my future based on my butt." Etc



  • Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's misogynistic and sexist to believe you can compliment a woman without her permission in a cafe/bar/queue for the bank? I disagree wholeheartedly.

    Would it be ok for a woman to approach a man?

    Despite many voices from twitter protesting at the horrendous invasion of their personal boundary because of an unsolicited compliment, there are many other voices who do not mind and even enjoy being told they look nice.

    As for the "small cohort who are unwilling/unable to desist", most people on here have said that although they don't do it themselves, that speaking to a random person and complimenting them shouldn't be illegal.

    It's astounding that you think it should. I mean, that's absolutely mental. You are pretty much advocating that it is illegal to say ANYTHING to a woman you don't know without prior permission. What the ****?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    This morning RTE Radio 1's 'What it says in the papers' and the commentariat (mostly male) are apparently banging on about how women are 'living in fear' then in the IT there's F O'T on about his wife taking a taxi from the airport and questioning why the driver hadn't got his ID on view. I interact all the time with people I don't know both male and female and women don't give me the impression they have some 'baseline fear' of men. I myself if I'm in someplaces at night or in certain circumstances will have a heightened sense of awareness which is part of the natural defence mechanism.



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Just using your quote as a starting point. Most of what I'm writing is more general and more related to the thread, or the media, than your quoted piece.


    It's not a fair comparison though, because of the perspective of actual threat involved. With men being physically stronger, the risk of violence is always there. You're not going to be afraid of a woman attacking you after being rejected. It's not that it can't happen, but even if she does attack you, there's a pretty good chance that you can physically stop the attack. However, it's unfair and unreasonable to extend that risk/threat to men in the first place, because the statistics don't support the belief that men will force a woman to do x, y, z.

    I'd say the problem is that there is an interest by certain parties to encourage a sense of fear in society. I noticed this whenever I returned home after living abroad. When I left, Ireland was mostly safe (apart from the after pub/club crowd), with few real problems compared to countries like France or Germany. However each time I returned I was met with recommendations from friends not to be out late at night, not to go to certain areas, to be careful of groups of teens, etc. Each time there was a new possible threat of violence.

    At the same time, I think there's a view for many women as if men can do or act whatever they wish without being concerned. However, I'd never go running when it got dark. I'd always stick to areas which I know see plenty of foot traffic. When approaching a group of lads, I'd generally cross the road, keeping an eye on them the whole time. Day or night, I'm mostly aware of who is around me. There is a far greater risk of male on male violence than male on female violence, but that gets little airtime.

    A few years ago, I attended a martial arts event where the experts took (willing) people in off the street, and tested them against the experts, but also against other people in a little scrap. Even without looking at the difference in strength for men/women, the differences in strength for men was varied. We no longer live in a world where most men work daily in manual labor. A lot of exercise does little to generate true strength in the body.. and on top of that, few men have had any training in fighting. Even when they have experience in fighting (from school or their early 20s), in many cases, they've lost their awareness, and knowledge through the years since. As such, a few of the guys brought in off the street, managed to demolish most of the other guys involved. Even the martial artists struggled in terms of actual strength compared to some.

    The point is that for many men the risks of a fight are extremely high. They're not built like a tank, and in many cases, due to their work or lifestyles aren't physically fit. If placed in a position of danger from a fight, a lot of guys are poorly equipped to fight another man, especially men who have a greater inclination towards aggression or physical violence. A guy looking to commit violence is more likely to attack another man, than a woman. Socially it's already unacceptable to attack a woman, but on top of that, the law itself is rather aggressive compared to violence committed towards a man.

    The narrative in the media, or online is all about the risks that women face, and that men should do more. I appreciate the risks involved, but in many ways, the same risks are there for men. In some ways, the risks are greater for men.

    This is not, and should not, be a competition to see which gender has it worse... although invariably we see in the media, efforts to make it out that women have it much worse. However, the simple truth is that when it comes to danger outside, the risks are high for everyone concerned. If someone, (male or female), was to walk up to me, and stab me in the belly, there would be nothing I could do. It wouldn't matter if I was a man or a woman, because such an attack is completely unexpected. If I, as a man, is attacked in the street by one or more men, I'm going to get beaten up.

    Many years ago, myself and a mate, were beaten up by 7 guys who were leaving the nightclub, hadn't scored, were somewhat drunk etc etc. There was no defense. There were no fancy moves. A bottle to the head, kicks to the chest/ribs, kicks to the head, etc. That's the reality for men.

    I think people have begun to see movie fights as being realistic. They're not. In any given fight, chances are, you're unprepared, and the other person has some advantage over you. Drop all the bravado, and it's not fair, equal, or whatever. It's dangerous every time.

    I feel the media really need to be taken to task for promoting what they have so far. At the same time, we really need to consider what kind of society we're encouraging to develop. Some hard public conversations without all the posturing, need to occur, and we definitely need to stop all this BS about gender.


    Lastly, I've asked this a few times in the thread, but haven't gotten any serious/practical/realistic answers. "men must do more". What is it that men are supposed to do? And what are individual men supposed to do? (bear in mind the practical risks in getting involved in a strangers situation).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    This is very much a problem. Even just for society as a whole. When I walk now I keep my eyes directly on the ground and make sure to avoid eye contact with people I meet on the street, just in case they feel threatened.

    But then you have people on the tv saying they prefer country living because in the towns and cities you haven't a clue who your neighbours are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,785 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Who watches a funeral of someone they don't know? I find it absolutely bizarre, people around the country tuning into RTE today.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Yes but these are "gender based issues" which were also relevant in the 11th century - not just to anyone over 40 but to anyone who has ever lived in civilisation.

    So why does everyone talk like they were just born yesterday?

    We should scrutinize the "solutions" we are about to have pushed on us, which will be some sort of heavy bureaucratic regulations on the ordinary man.

    Will these solutions be fair or will they be a pile-on on 'toxic white males' aka Irishmen?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭SAMTALK


    And why that funeral. ? Why not the funeral of every man woman and child who has been murdered on this island ?



  • Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    One good thing about the new boards is that it truncates long quoted posts. :P

    The video below is good for showing how things are more likely to go. Male or female, escape, hopefully following de-escalation is the only sensible strategy. though it won't always work. I cringe at some of the stuff I've heard from people who've been to self-defence classes or when they learn to armbar someone who's being compliant.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,627 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    "Who is this person staring at the ground? Why are they looking at the ground?"

    "Who is this person looking at me? Why are they looking at me?"

    You can't win.

    To answer the question "why do women feel threathened?" Maybe the answer is that the incredibly rare event of something bad happening is amplified tenfold by the media to create a culture of fear.

    The simple fact that the death of Aisling Murphy is widely publicised and her funeral is on RTE is a testament to the fact that random murder of young women is incredibly rare. Rare enough that plenty of talking heads have taken the opportunity to push the event into the spotlight and promote their own agenda.

    In context, about a dozen people have died in car accidents in the past week. An Irishman is missing in Denmark, and a body was found in an alley in Donegal.

    None have garnered more than a story or two in the media.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,454 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,454 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig




  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    After getting mobbed/beaten up, I went to get training in street fighting, because I swore it would never happen again. I was told not to fight, and just run. Learn a few quick attacks to stop/shock your opponent(s), and then run like hell. Don't get drunk in public, always be aware of your surroundings, always have an idea where to run to if threatened. But don't fight, because chances are, you'll come out with brain damage of some kind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    Women are more vulnerable and likely to experience violence in domestic situations but in the public sphere while they are more likely to be victims of random sexual assaults they are a lot less likely than men to be victims of random physical assault.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,857 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Last night's Claire Byrne programme was one of the most crass things I've seen on RTE.

    To sum up, men are wolf whistling, public masturbating, drink spiking, murdering rapists. No wonder McConkey thinks we should need a licence to go outside.

    Have any of these simpletons considered the wider consequences of this wall to wall negative portrayal of men.

    2021 saw a major increase in the number of views of incel web forums. LDAR (lie down and rot) and roping (no explanation necessary) are part of the incel lexicon.

    That is the extreme end but there could be more subtle and insidious changes in society if the average man feels increasingly demonised and has a reduced drive to be a "good provider" and to interact with women. No interest in having children. Not bothering to go for promotions in work or to work at all.

    Meanwhile, fcukboys, abusers and violent men won't give a crap and will have a field day.

    "Where have all the good men gone/men are bastards".

    Re: Ashling Murphy's contributions to society. Personally, I'm pretty sure that I have contributed as much or more in my 45 years as she did in her 23 years. I'll be going for a walk on a greenway later, if a nutter attacks and kills me, will the President and Taoiseach attend my funeral - they will in their fcuk. Will Rip.ie crash because of the number of strangers trying to leave condolence messages - will it fcuk.

    The message to other men would clearly be then that women are FAR more valuable than men are.

    "He was just going for a walk" - eh, no.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Yep the question needs to be asked. Why are women, seemingly, more fearful of getting attacked when men are more likely to be attacked.

    Jack Wooley, Taekwondo Olympian got his face smashed in a few months ago randomly. Why are men apparently not in fear after this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38 mdol


    Its the Diana-effect. People desperate to out grieve each other. And post about it online for likes.

    What happened to that girl was shocking, as is any murder of an innocent person but the reaction to this particular one is completely over the top. We're just short of canonisation at this point. How many more people will be murdered over the coming months with little more than a three minute segment on the nine o clock news reporting on it?



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What is a random sexual assault? (I'd kinda like to see the research/statistics on that one)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    Because they don't talk about their fear/anxiety, maybe we should if only for the sake of having a more balanced public discussion.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,302 ✭✭✭Economics101


    The usual left-wing opinion slot in the Irish Times has a piece by Louise Crowley of the Bystander Intervention Programme (!!!) in UCC. It's full of the usual "we must do this" and "we must do that" mantras. And she emphatically puts the onus on all men to speak up and act when they witness unacceptable male behaviour.

    Of course there is nothing about the practicality of what she is preaching: All men includes me, and am I, as a 76 year old, meant to "call out" the next young thug I see behaving inappropriately? One of the reasons people of my age were taught to abhor any violence against women was because they were "the weaker sex". This of course was nonsense unless one referring only to physical strength. But there are many fit young women who can and should call out bad behaviour (by males and females) in certain circumstances.

    It's not just "all men".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,487 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Well, it shows the quality of the interviewer if they let such comments go unchallenged.

    Having said that, could you imagine the backlash any radio or tv presenter would get if they were to pull someone up on such comments and ask them to provide data to back up their claims? No one will do it.

    When McConkey implied his idea of a mens licence, Brendan O Connor should have said, "catch yourself on Sam, are you being serious cos that's a ridiculous suggestion". But of course he didn't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,011 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Men are in fear, but women, being smaller and physically weaker, and clearly so, are obviously going to have that fear heightened.

    Also, men are not sexually assaulted/raped to anywhere near the extent that women are. This element of an attack weighs heavily on the minds of women.

    I don't think it's that logical to be comparing violent assaults on males vs females'. There are clear differences.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,546 ✭✭✭zv2


    I'm not the broadest guy you could meet but I'm tall and when I have my woolly jumper on on a winter's night I look much bigger and I see the wariness in men's faces when I pass: am I going to attack?

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    But the comparison is not the act, but the fear. In any case, while rape is awful, the risk of brain damage or being left in a wheel-chair is also awful. The danger is always going to be there for men facing violence.

    Personally, I suspect there's a very simple difference. Men accept that they need to take precautions in their lives, and don't see it as being unreasonable. Women have been taught, in modern times, that they should be able to go anywhere, do anything, and they should be safe at all times. (and no, I do think many women are very careful with their lives, and have been taught by their parents to be aware, but society has been pushing the opposite)

    That's the difference.

    Another thing.. just in regards to the rape aspect. Consider two groups going out drinking. A guy can get drunk with strangers, and is of little to no risk of rape. However, a woman getting drunk with strangers, is of much higher risk of rape. Now... that should mean that women wouldn't get drunk with strangers because of the higher risks involved. Instead, society/feminists have decided, that women should be able to get drunk with strangers, and the strangers should stop being a risk.. but... as they're strangers there's no realistic way to enforce such a demand. The risk will always remain from strangers. Always. And that's the problem. It's not realistic or even remotely practical, but society is encouraging women to continue taking risks, just so that they can complain about how unfair it is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,496 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Thanks to social media, grief is now performative

    You bask in the glow of a personal tragedy for likes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,496 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The peculiar thing is ,the kind of feminist who are to the fore these days portray women as inherently weak, scared and vulnerable, hence the talk of " being Afraid all of the time "


    Weakness is celebrated by the WOKE



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 391 ✭✭sekiro


    Depends. There are a few potential issues, I think. In a situation exactly like this I'd like to think I would say something. If there was some kind of way to complain to the restaurant/bar then I would 100% do that.

    However, there's also a size and strength differential between men. If this was some large dude with a crazy look in his eye then I really don't know.

    Hypothetically, say I speak up in this situation but the guy has mental health issues, anger issues, maybe off his meds, maybe having a bad day and decides to follow me out when I leave and give me a hiding in the street. Would I be compensated for defending the honor of m'lady and then getting a hiding?

    Take it even a step further and I call the dude out and it's just my luck that he flies into a murderous rage and stabs me there and then in the bar. I die from my injuries. Is the lady I defended going to compensate my wife and daughter? I mean, defending her honor had just left one woman without a husband, a girl without her father. Seems a very, very, heavy price to pay.

    Ah, maybe I'd get an article about me in the Irish Examiner! Probably not.

    I get the concept. We want men to step in and defend women. What's the risk involved there though? Am I really going to take basically an unknown risk to defend some lady I don't even know?

    Obviously the spectrum of potential situations and outcomes is broad. You'd have to intervene when confronted with a very serious situation. It's going to depend on a lot of factors. There are men against whom I'd likely be as vulnerable as any woman. It's not like men are stab-proof or better at taking a severe beating.

    A bit of a mixed message for men too. They want us to show vulnerability and shun toxic masculinity but also if we see a woman being cat-called in the street we've to step in and accost the perpetrator? You know some of us are short and lightweight and not able to fight if it comes down to it, right?

    If I am being honest the kind of guy who might shout at or harass women in the street is probably not the kind of guy I'd feel comfortable messing with. I am sure 9 times out of 10 it would be fine. I'd tell him to knock it off and that would be the end of it. I can probably write about it on Facebook and get lots of Good Boy points and be a proper little Male Feminist for a day. The 1 in 10 times when it might go horribly wrong? Should I really take that risk?

    Good Samaritan dies in 'one-punch' attack after intervening in dispute - Independent.ie

    That's a very heavy price to pay.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    If it's not safe for women then it's positively a warzone for men. Out of ten serious assaults, murders and suicides, eight are men. In sexual assaults that precentage goes the other way where out of ten, seven are women. Now imagine if I tweeted/wrote a headline "Ireland isn't a safe place for men because of number of sexual assaults" I'd be tarred and feathered and rightfully so, but I can write something exactly that ridiculous going the other direction and be praised by it and people will believe it.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm sure there are plenty of people and responsible trainers but some of the stuff I've heard from people who went was just incredible and dangerous at that. Part of that may be taking the wrong points to memory by the students but it's a responsibility that isn't light for the trainers.



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