Do men need a license to be allowed socialise (MOD NOTE IN OP)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495134#Comment_118495134

That woman was so drunk she fell asleep on you! And you allowed it? And then you took her personal details while she was not in a fit state to consent?

Shame on you.

:)

El_Duderino 09

So what serious suggestions have been made as a result of this tragedy?

I've heard calls for greater discussion with school children around respect for each other, consent and bodily autonomy and I have to day I support that as part of sex education and general health eduction. There have been suggestions that men call out your friends of they make remarks in WhatsApp groups and yer wan in the Sam McConkey interview said men should cross the street if they see a woman walking towards them on a dark night.

I'm not the WhatsApp police and I probably won't be calling out my friends on a WhatsApp group. I don't have friends who make these kinds of remarks on social media like WhatsApp or in real life, but I still don't think I'd call it out unless it was pretty off colour. I might think less of them and act accordingly, but I don't think I'd call them out as if real life was like Twitter. I also don't think I'd cross the street in case a woman was worried. I'd just mind my own business, walk from A to B and that's it.

So apart from education and consent discussions, what practical things should be done? What behaviours does anyone here plan to change as a result of all this discussion?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495134#Comment_118495134

Colour coding your openness to be approached/have your appearance commented on? Is this serious?

Absolutely not. It would make the 'you were asking for it' type comments even more prevalent. You might be ok with being commented upon, some aren't I've already said I think a big part of the issue is that many who don't like it don't because they don't know what way the situation might evolve once interaction has started.

This would be telling someone they've no right to complain about being commented upon because they literaly dressed in a particular way. Surely you were joking about this?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495134#Comment_118495134

I think the problem is the expectation is that men should change their behavior, but women shouldn't have to.

So, bringing in a way of classifying/identifying who is available/receptive to attention would be shot down as being unsuitable for women to do.. since after all, in the vast majority of cases, the expectation is there that the man should make the first move, or initiate contact. So it would be something for women to do, in making themselves available.. rather than something that men would need to adopt. Although, as a man, I think it would be a good idea.. removing the chance of approaching people who don't want the attention. (although it still doesn't determine that interest by both parties exists, and so, some people will continue to object about it)

Look at the posts earlier in the thread about giving compliments, or making comments about a woman. In each case, the argument is that the guy doesn't know if the woman wants to hear it, or will like hearing the compliment, and so, the guy shouldn't do it. (although many of the posters have assumed that the woman doesn't want these compliments from a stranger) There's no way to know what someone thinks before you do the action. We can't see inside other peoples minds, and the truth is that most people don't know their own minds until something actually happens.

There's a certain... unrealistic approach to these issues. As if they're looking at a lab experiment in sterile conditions, than the chaotic and unpredictable conditions of the real world, which involves extremely varied personalities.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118494878#Comment_118494878

... and they probably went on to do the same at the next stop or the next night and passing some choice comments about you.

If I tried the same I'd probably get a "Who's going to stop us? You and whose army?" response, with a few digs for my trouble. Even among thugs it is less acceptable to hit a woman than a man.

What is needed is that the risks and consequences make it more trouble than it's worth for them to engage in antisocial behaviour.

There's cameras at many Luas stops. They should have been identified, arrested, prosecuted and subject to a suitable sentence e.g. a curfew, exclusion from certain areas, etc., monitored properly with further consequences if the curfew or exclusion area is broken.

We have laws, what is needed is the will and resources to enforce them and enforce them fairly. Expecting private individuals to put themselves in harms way to compensate for under resourced policing or over lenient courts is a cop out.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495264#Comment_118495264

Juveniles.

You expect to treat juveniles like they are serious hardened criminals? Why can't society stand up to bad behaviour?

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118494203#Comment_118494203

Yes, quite right.

Its the "Lady Diana" syndrome all over again.

Sheep...a type of collective madness.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495202#Comment_118495202

Honestly, I don't plan to change any of my behaviors.. because I already adhere to the standard of "being a gentleman" that my mother encouraged when I was young. Treat others how I want myself to be treated. That's enough in my eyes.

As for serious suggestions, I don't think there have been any that weren't particularly vague or ones that ignored the dangers involved for men.

walshb

We need the cops to start patrolling our streets more.....it's almost non-existent with them.

Well known that police presence will make people think twice about committing crime

I could be wrong, but in all the countries I have been in, Ireland seems to have the least actual police presence patrolling.

People advocating the general public to intervene and act as some sort deterrent is all well and good when these issues can be diffused, but what about when there is no diffusion? I would not be advising anyone to start challenging groups about their behaviors. It could be too dangerous

SAMTALK

I'm passed the point of being whistled at, but i really wish that all towns would get the street lighting back on again properly.

Any of the towns near me have lights on one side of the street only and the other side has been turned off.

As for men passing comments, this has been going on for an age and I don't honestly think it will stop , yes a few men will go too far but come on ladies give them a break . I am by no means dismissing any sort of sexual assault or harassment but jesus some of the stories i've heard in the last week would just make you laugh.

Is it wrong of me to want to say " get over yourselves".

BrianD3

When you look at some of the men that women choose to date and marry, it's not surprising that getting involved in (what looks like) a fight between partners is a bad idea. Do some women date thuggish men in spite of or because of their violent thuggery? Sexy bad boys and workplace bullies would be on the low end of the spectrum with hybristophilia for serial killers and murderers at the extreme end.

Every gangster, criminal and bully that I've ever encountered had zero difficulty attracting women and having children with them. If the asshole genes are passed on then the cycle repeats itself.

Two well known examples:

1) Pearse McAuley, a notorious IRA man who was involved in all manner of "operations". Mur...sorry manslaughters Det. Garda Jerry McCabe. Pauline Tully, a teacher from Cavan marries him knowing exactly what he has done. Has children with him. A few years later, he stabs her 13 times in a domestic incident. This smart lady is now a TD for Cavan Monaghan. McAuley is in prison. Probably gets love letters.

2) Adrian Crevin-Mackin. Known violent gangster and gun importer. Has a partner, has children with her. Domestic incident occurs which results in Gardai called. His partner is shot in the head but survives however Garda Tony Golden is shot dead.

As I have the same equipment between my legs as McAuley and Crevin-Mackin, am I also assumed to be a violent thug? If I'm not a violent thug, am I still expected to intervene if I see something happening? If I save a woman but am killed in the process, will the Taoiseach and President attend my funeral? One thing's for sure, dopes like Sam McConkey are going to do nothing. Talking absolute sh*te on the radio doesn't count.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495272#Comment_118495272

Because you could have potentially gotten a shoeing at the bus stop for your trouble or just spat at if you're lucky. You don't know what sort of little scroats are going around the place

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495341#Comment_118495341

I know exactly what types of scrotes are around thanks

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495363#Comment_118495363

I'm not trying to mansplain before I get labeled for being a misogynistic man pig.

I just don't think it is the wisest of decisions I understand the frustration, but things like that can and have gone both ways. I've worked doors in nightclubs and seen people trying to stop arguments, much of the time it can help calm the situation, other times, one lady in particular a trip to the orthodontist for a new front tooth.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495283#Comment_118495283

I'd say the suggestions I supported in the post you quoted weren't gendered or tarted t on gender or the other. Teaching children* about respect for others, consent and bodily agronomy is a sensible suggestion.

*Chikdren because they go to school to learn things they need to know but won't necessarily lean at home. It might be equally useful for adults to learn these things but there's isn't a similar institution to teach adults. Maybe public service announcements and education campaigns.

Template devil's advocate, how do you know the standards your mother taught you are sound? Could they have been sound when she learned the as a child 50 years ago but now have become out of date? Is it worth challenging any of our beliefs?

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495272#Comment_118495272

Yes. They should, by experience if necessary, learn that there are consequences to breaking society's rules. A curfew, exclusion from an area, not meeting with certain people are no more punishment than a parent might give. If the parents don't care or can't control their children then some outside agency is needed to do so.

A graduated response to antisocial behaviour from juvenile liaison / social worker, through non custodual measures such as curfews, exclusion orders, community service , up to custodual responses for persistent offenders and it shouldn't be possible for dad or mum to buy your way out of trouble if they can pay for the damage you cause.

You or I can't do much. Any direct intervention is likely to put an adult on the wrong side of the law.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495382#Comment_118495382

Trust me, I'm well aware of exactly what types of people are out there. And I have seen them getting worse and I honestly believe that it is due to everyone not wanting to get involved.

And parents actually, a lot of parents don't bother punishing wrongdoing anymore.

Pawwed Rig

@RubyGlee

This isn’t a men vs women issue. Violence is a problem for everyone but you can’t deny that there is definitely more for a woman to fear and that’s needs to be addressed.

But there isn't. Statistically there is more for men to fear. Men are much more likely to be assaulted and murdered.

Even taking that into account we are in one of the safest periods in the history of humanity. This should be borne in mind by anyone suggesting us tearing up the society we have over perceived fear.

There is no need for most people to change their behaviour at all. Rapists, murderers and perverts are already the most vilified people in society. We have laws in place with punishments that fit the crime. If anything needs to change it is allowing known violent men walk amongst the unsuspecting public. This is the pressure that should be exerted on govt and the judiciary rather than asking me to stop my friends wolf whistling (which none of them do) or grope women in public (which none of them do).

Sure I will try to raise my kids right but that was going to happen anyway and my son already prefers playing with girls so ladies of the world have little to worry about him ever harassing them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495385#Comment_118495385

I'd say the suggestions I supported in the post you quoted weren't gendered or tarted t on gender or the other. Teaching children* about respect for others, consent and bodily agronomy is a sensible suggestion.

None of which is anything new, and has been taught in schools forever.

Template devil's advocate, how do you know the standards your mother taught you are sound? Could they have been sound when she learned the as a child 50 years ago but now have become out of date? Is it worth challenging any of our beliefs?

I don't see the need for a devil's advocate on this. What I said was simple enough, and falls in line with what most women want from male behavior.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495411#Comment_118495411

I don't disagree that there's is more antisocial behaviour.

Regarding parents, it's a white cat that has white kittens. The biggest scumbags I knew growing up have the biggest families. Its hardly surprising the children behave similarly

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495411#Comment_118495411

I think you are right......but the risks of getting involved are just too great imo because there is no real deterrent for these thugs....

As I see it If you intervene.....

possibility (a) you probably get a kicking (one of the better outcomes) which does not discourage said group from doing it again so probably pointless.

Possibility (b) you get involved and end up giving one of them a kicking and pick up a criminal record for yourself as you struck a minor etc.....they don't give two **** about that as they have nothing to lose (it's not a real meaningful consequence for them even if they weren't a minor..its probably bragging rights for some)...you however stand to lose a lot not least future employment possibilities

Possibility (c) they are just little cowardly bullies and when it's put up to them theyhurl abuse at you and stop/go away ......unlikely to end at that nowadays, maybe 30/40 years ago

Possibility (d) your act of courage stirs other responsible citizens to stand up and the little thugs realise they are outnumbered and stand down realising this **** isn't tolerated here.

In my opinion I think (c) and (d) while possible are the least likely thing to happen ...its more likely to be either (a) or (b) with bystanders standing around videoing it from a safe distance with their camera phones.

Then when it does go to court with the video evidence they get off with a slap on the wrist and you go home with injuries and/or a criminal record for your troubles.

That is why I don't intervene even though I'd dearly love to see little anti social **** have manners put on them....and that's my complaint...people should imo be looking for more pressure to be put on for visible garda presence and deterrents....real deterrents/consequences for that kind of behaviour etc etc

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118494139#Comment_118494139

Yes, this explains it well. Doesn't exactly fit with the women have been oppressed for millenia narrative though.

One recent example that jumps out for me is the crash of Rescue 116. I guarantee that far more people would be able to name the female crew member than any of the three men. Even if they can't name the woman, their memory of the incident would likely be along the lines of "that terrible crash where the woman pilot was killed".

i seem to remember there being a tribute to Dara Fitzpatrick at a concert with no mention of the other crew. IIRC it was part of a "great women" type tribute but even so, I thought it was in very poor taste not to even mention her colleagues.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495480#Comment_118495480

You don't even need to challenge the way you were taught when you were a child? I find that a bit naive.

Does anyone need to challenge the way they were taught by their parents? Are all parents infallible? Or are your parents infallible?

I'd say there's always good reason to challenge the things we were taught. Doesn't mean we throw everything out, bit challenging it against the reality and how reality has changed is a good idea.

Why do you think you don't need to challenge anything you were taught? Could you expand on it?

Also, has consent been taught in schools forever? That's certainly not my experience. Would you say consent has been taught well in schools?

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118490794#Comment_118490794

Am I suggesting that female suicides are under-reported more than male? No, I'm not. I'm saying the data itself is meaningless, because it's subjective. It's pointless drawing conclusions from junk data.

Yes, women are also sucked in by marketing. I think we agree. It's completely pervasive, societal. That means it's driven by more than one gender, but the impact and expectation is mostly on one gender.

"Medical treatment is an interesting one to bring up when the facts show that more is spent on women's healthcare than mens" "do we even have a public screening system for prostate cancer?"

I never know if people are disingenuous here, or don't understand the complexity of diseases when they throw out statements like this. Assuming it's not disingenuous. Oncology is close to my heart, I'm part of a prostate cancer therapy project at the moment, so it's certainly not under-funded. On screening, screening for it isn't generally successful as PSA can be affected by many factors. Prostate cancer is also more survivable and treatable than breast cancer.

Breast cancer is more complex. Ductal Carcinoma in Situ, Invasive Breast Cancer , triple-negative, Angiosarcoma of the Breast, Inflammatory Breast Cancer, Paget Disease of the Breast. All different diseases, different therapies, and lower survivability. Screening here gives improved outcomes, therefore programs are recommended and are in place. I could mention as an aside that the screening is f-ing barbaric btw, being strapped into a vice while it's tightened from another room doesn't feel like modern technology. I was left black and blue from armpit to bottom of ribcage from a mammogram. But, it works, so that's something.

Almost every woman I know, or a woman in their family has come away from a dr in their lifetime, having been dismissed that their symptoms are nothing to worry about. That's the point I was making, but that wasn't heard. ;)

"If there's any blame to be dished up here, surely it's on the women "

Yes, that's the general gist of your post, and is the standard line of defense of the misogynist. It's women's fault. Everything men do, and everything women do, is somehow definitely all women's fault. We somehow can't look at it together, without the defensiveness.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118491054#Comment_118491054

You say you don't want to dismiss it, but then go on to try. But OK, let's take your argument and agree. Men are still overwhelmingly the people that are "falling off bridges, having single vehicle collisions, accidental overdoses and self poisoning".

Maybe I wasn't clear. Making statements based on numbers, using words like "more", or "less" doesn't make any sense unless you have reliable numbers. The numbers are subjective, the data is unreliable. You can discuss the topic, sure, but making statements about which is a bigger or smaller number is meaningless. 

Not if they're married they don't!(joke)😁 In any event all those things you list are driven by the market and that market is women. Which industries have more women than men calling the shots on what's "In"? Fashion and beauty(and a lot of advertising). ..."

Yes, I said it was a societal problem. That isn't a man vs woman thing. Women and men both do this. But the recipients on the end are women.

" When was the last time an overweight Black woman in her forties graced the fashion pages(other than Oprah)? if that was your thing you'd find that in an instant in a porn search. What will be harder to find is "18 year old anorexic catwalk model. This is something I wish more women understood, but it seems so few do; men care significantly less about the things you think make you 'pretty' than you and other women do."

I'll leave your cataloging of the porn universe to you. I've other stuff to do.

"And if a man is a rapist murderer or even catcaller that's men's fault and also our responsibility to fix." Ah come on. This is clearly disingenuous. No-one has ever blamed the victim for being in the wrong place, or dressed incorrectly, or provoking the attacker is it? This is what you want me to believe? 

"Yep, but you think male medical stuff is peachy? Compare the funding of breast cancer, or cervical cancer, to testicular or prostate cancer. There is no comparison. As an Irish woman, you will live longer and in better health than the average Irish man. You will be significantly less likely to die from most illnesses and you will also have far more social support while doing so."

Already addressed in response to sleepy. 

Leg End Reject

In a previous thread on the topic of misogyny it was claimed that a man should not approach, or talk to, a woman in a social setting unless he knew she was open to it. None of those suggesting it could explain how a man could know what a stranger was thinking or feeling.

In this thread it's been suggested that a random compliment shouldn't be proffered with an apparent assumption that men can't give one beyond the "Nice tits" variety.

However, these very same men who should cross the road and avoid random interactions with women should all jump in to defend any woman's honour and call out their fellow man for any comment or behaviour that could be deemed inappropriate.It's actually hilarious to read.

Maybe some education or classes for these poor women who are on edge in their day to day lives, going for a walk or a coffee etc., might help to overcome these worries and allow them to lead full lives? Maybe help distinguish between a wolf whistle or cat call and a genuine threat to safety?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495075#Comment_118495075

which is the same thing as it was a pr decision like all politicians

buried

Big turnaround up on here from a couple of weeks ago when certain people were deriding "vigilantes" for doing what they do, now the same people want every single man in the country to become a vigilante immediately and disgusted every man didn't partake in vigilantism far far earlier

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483971#Comment_118483971

Up against the wall. Assume the position. Slowly draw out your vaccination card. Hand it to me without breathing or coughing or sneezing. No booster recorded? No kisses!

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118495246#Comment_118495246

I think the problem is the expectation is that men should change their behavior, but women shouldn't have to.

Do you really think women should have to change their behaviour if they are currently unhappy with how men treat them? Is that not just asking them to stop complaining?

Or what do you mean by change their behavior exactly? I haven't read the full thread so maybe you've said it elsewhere.