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Do men need a license to be allowed socialise (MOD NOTE IN OP)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭OEP


    It was a straw man argument and I did deal with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,586 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I genuinely couldn't point to a single man of my acquaintance who'd cat call a woman and believe me, I know plenty of shameless flirts.

    The last remaining cretins who do it are the same scrotes that generally make any area they're in an unpleasant place to be and it's other young guys who tend to get the worst of it in my experience: the scumbags might catcall at a girl or even grab her handbag and cycle off but they'll kick seven shades out of some other young lad for the tenner in his wallet. Most of those cretins don't have fathers to speak to them, and if they do, their fathers will be of the same ilk.

    You are not going to get through to that type of person by sending in some social studies graduate who's drank the feminist kool-aid to lecture them about how women are perpetual victims and straight white men are always to blame. Real life tells them otherwise: their female classmates will be outperforming them in school, will have an easier time getting employed or accessing third level, have more opportunity to "marry up" (and are far more likely to come out the better should that marriage end in divorce), will out-earn them when they enter the workforce (unless they choose to side-line their careers for motherhood), have easier access to social housing and support, are less likely to be the victim of a violent crime, are less likely to commit suicide, etc. etc. etc.

    Despite what the misandrists making a living at it are telling you, the facts all point the same way: Irish women have far more privilege than men.

    If you truly want a more egalitarian society, you need to look at things through a far broader lens than that which feminism affords you. Most of Ireland's social issues are far more to do with class than gender, race or creed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,981 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Can we just get past the whole males passing comment on females in public.

    not all females take offence.

    nobody is condoning threatening or intimidating behaviour from males directed at females.

    vast vast majority these incidents are not at all menacing/threatening or nasty. They are simply instances of males interacting with females, albeit childishly or immaturely.

    surely most women would not want a situation where a male is arrested, charged and convicted for what he never ever meant as nasty or intimidating. A conviction that remains with him forever, and that could see him lose his job.

    are we really advocating for this?



  • Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    To clarify i didn't say they could warn him


    I said they could go to the house in response to your complaint

    If it was an arrestable offence the Garda could arrest him.

    I'm not sure the Garda has to warn him at your request but he should follow up the complaint properly

    If you're not happy you can complain to the super or to GSOC .Saying he did not answer his phone is a pathetic cop excuse



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Not backed up by data indeed OEP and this is part of the problem. The feeling of being unsafe and this being revved up by the society and media. Take this current example in the Sunday World. Murder of Aisling Murphy lays bare horrifying history of violence against women in Ireland. In 2020 eight out of ten of murder victims were men. Actual fact. There has never been a year in the history of this state where that stat was 50/50, never mind reversed. The reality is that there is a 'horrifying' history of violence against men in Ireland*.

    OK let's imagine this another way: 70% of all sexual assault victims in Ireland are women. Actual fact. An appalling statistic. Now imagine a media outlet ran with the headline "Rape of John O'Citizen lays bare the horrifying history of sexual assault against men in Ireland". Pretty much everyone who read that would be shouting WTF are these idiots on about!! And they'd be dead right, but the actual Sunday World article is just as innacurate, paranoid and driven by cultural perception and we buy into it without much questioning.

    So why is this accepted? As I said it's because women are seen by society as automatically more vulnerable, automatically victims and agentless, even more 'valuable' compared to men, who must be protected. Ironically by the same men. Note the call for fathers to instruct their sons on how to behave. Brothers and male peers ditto. Even here women are out of the picture, off the hook as it were. It's both mysoginist and misandrist at once.


    *It's not actually that horrifying beyond the personal tragedies involved as we're a very safe country to live in.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭kazamo


    You could perhaps keep your opinions to yourself. I know, that’s just a mad idea

    It is highly unlikely that a beautiful woman is waiting until the age of 25 or so to hear she’s beautiful for the first time.

    Why is society so pass remarkable in public areas to complete strangers



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,945 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Who the hell does it though? It pretty much identifies the IQ/mentality of the individual as well. IMO it's the same as when you hold the door open for a woman in a pub/nightclub and they look at ya like yer a piece of shít and say something along the lines of "as if". And I'm not trying to draw similarities as such just that they are both common identifiers of low level humans.

    And can we stop with the building site trope please! Any half decent site has a zero tolerance policy to that sort of behavior.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It is highly unlikely that a beautiful woman is waiting until the age of 25 or so to hear she’s beautiful for the first time.

    Where did you get "that" from his post?



  • Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I have heard some woman on radio define asking someone to dance as harassment

    Maybe they meant persistent hassling to dance but they said asking to dance in a night club.

    Was few months ago before this murder of Ashling


    By the way i don't condone the wolf whistle or know anyone who behave s like that.



  • Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So you do believe that saying that wow, "that woman is beautiful" should be enough to warrant a court case if the woman didn't appreciate it?

    Because that's what I'm arguing against.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭kazamo


    A beautiful woman as mentioned by the earlier poster, indicates someone who has at least reached the age of maturity and was likely a beautiful teenager as well.

    it would be unlikely that she has heard the phrase for the first time as a grown woman.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭notAMember


    I don't want to dismiss it, because it is a topic worth discussing, but suicide figures are very difficult to draw conclusions from, as they are quite subjective. It can be difficult to separate accidents from suicides. Suicides are often hidden in other categories like unknown cause of mortality, or deaths of undetermined intent. Falling off bridges, single vehicle collisions, accidental overdoses vs self-poisoning.


    The basic experience of what it is like to be female in society today is what the poster meant. The pervasiveness of gendered expectations is wearying for women.

    Take something simple like shopping for toothpaste. You go into any chemist in the country and you will see thousands of anti-aging products, aimed squarely at women. Creams for wrinkles, age spots, crows feet, any myriad of products. The obligation to look pretty, get dressed up, do hair and make-up. But also understand simultaneously that buying clothes, make-up or spending money on haircuts is seen as silly and frivolous. Men generally get to age in peace.

    Any child doing anything someone disapproves of... there's usually a comment about it being the mother's fault.

    People demeaning "types" of women. Girls who like make-up or romcoms, or makeup, or nerdy girls, sporty girls, confident girls, shy girls, "karen"s. Each and every trait that is seen as feminine is derided. Meggings for goodness sake. Men are so insulted with being associated with something that might be considered female, that they made up a new name for running tights, or leggings for men.

    Medical treatment. Having a baby? There is no way you are the right age. You are either way too young if you're under 30, and geriatric if you are over 30. And that's comments from medical professionals. Gyne problems are often misdiagnosed. Pain women experience is dismissed and expected to be endured instead of being diagnosed and treated. It's incredibly difficult to get something like PCOS, cysts or endometriosis treated, but there are dozens of breast and face surgeries available, lip fillers, bum implants. Those have a menu.


    Expectation to be responsible for life-admin. My husband is well able to manage our children. I go away with work for weeks at a time, and while I miss them all at home, I'm not concerned for their welfare, that they will starve or miss appointments etc. The amount of people who ask me whether I stocked the fridge in advance, or did meal plans, or lists of tasks. No , I did not. But that general expectation for me to have served him this platter of information is there.


    And that's without mentioning any violence, sex or abuse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭enfant terrible




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭kazamo


    I am not aware of anyone who does it either, but judging from other contributor’s posts here, it seems to be quite widespread.

    Re the building site angle, I never mentioned it and one of the experiences I had it was from from the complete opposite spectrum to the lad from the building site.



  • Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That makes no sense in the context of TheDunnes post.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    Who is it that you think expects you to wear make up? It certainly isn't society, the reality is that most people really don't care about the way you look. My wife rarely wears make up, I don't think she feels under any obligation to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭kazamo


    Why do you feel compelled to comment on a complete strangers appearance in public ?

    Would silence for fear of causing offence no matter how positive the comment is, not be a better policy.

    Really do feel like I’m from a different planet sometimes…idk



  • Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You act like men don't have any gendered expectations.

    And frankly, any of the issues you brought up are laughable.



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    From what I gather, the people who advocate all of this, want a world where a man will never say anything to a woman without knowing beforehand that it is received well, and actually wanted.

    So, in other words, a man should never express an interest or pay a woman a compliment unless she has asked for it first. Permission needs to be extended first.

    I wonder if the people advocating these kind of behaviors, really understand the kind of world they're promoting. After all, few women will initiate first contact with a man, even when they're attracted to that man. The expectation is still for the man to initiate contact for romance or intimacy. However, by making sure that it's always wrong for a man to express interest (without knowing beforehand that it will be well received) means that in the vast majority of situations, a man will not be able to initiate anything.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭kazamo


    Perhaps when the woman hears she’s beautiful from a complete stranger…..is she now wondering, do I have a problem here.

    Have you actually said it to many women ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    I don't believe we disagree on anything relating to this matter.



  • Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't. I just don't think it should be illegal to do so.

    And no, I don't think remaining silent for fear of offending someone is even slightly a good idea in any way or a policy I would want to live by.



  • Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 843 ✭✭✭kazamo


    Wow….just wow…say what you like regardless, oh you really are a keeper



  • Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So that's your justification for wanting unsolicited compliments to be illegal?

    I have complimented women out of the blue in the past. If I hadn't done it, I would not be married to my wife.

    I'd hate to be a young single guy in this day and age.



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The interesting thing is that the products and expectations you listed are driven by women towards other women. Take just about any group of women meeting together, and they will spend time observing each others appearance, how well they look, what products they use and recommend. Just as they will talk about others outside of their group, pass comments about their appearance, etc.

    You've decided that everything is driven by male pressure. It's not. Women have been influencing and judging of other women's behavior since forever. Look back throughout history, during the times where gendered roles were strictly reinforced, and you'll find women ensuring that other women didn't break the accepted social norms.

    And men experience a wide range of gendered based roles and expectations throughout their lifetime. It's not as simple as you want to suggest it to be.



  • Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I know right?

    How ridiculous.

    You sarcastically calling me a keeper is offensive to me. Why did you feel like you could say it?



  • Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,146 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    That's fair enough, you don't have to engage. My posts to you are extremely polite, Klaz. It's the actual content of them and pushback against your views that does not suit your narrative and may be diffcult for to answer.

    By the way, while you responded to the other posters who questioned the victim blaming post, you did not answer the question for them either.



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