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Ethics of taking a pig's heart for transplant

  • 11-01-2022 4:02pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,556 ✭✭✭Finty Lemon


    "A US man has become the first person in the world to get a heart transplant from a genetically-modified pig.

    David Bennett, 57, is doing well three days after the experimental seven-hour procedure in Baltimore, doctors say.

    The transplant was considered the last hope of saving Mr Bennett's life, though it is not yet clear what his long-term chances of survival are.

    "It was either die or do this transplant," Mr Bennett explained a day before the surgery.

    "I know it's a shot in the dark, but it's my last choice," he said.

    Doctors at the University of Maryland Medical Center were granted a special dispensation by the US medical regulator to carry out the procedure, on the basis that Mr Bennett - who has terminal heart disease - would otherwise have died" BBC News

    Very interesting from a science perspective, but what are people's opinion on the ethics of this? Does it go too far in contravention of certain religious views or other life principles?



«1

Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    in contravention of whose religious views, the pig's?


    they are hardly forcing hearts into people so apart from the patient what could anyone else's religious views have to do with it?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm sure the recipient of the organ, now alive and well, is as happy as a pig in **** about its success. That's all that matters.

    If anyone complains about using pig organs, to then proceed to horse into some bacon sandwich later (or any other animal sourced food), I can't forgive their hypocrisy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,823 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Hold on while I just finish this bacon sandwich, and I'll give you my view on the ethics of it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    People should keep their religious views to themselves.

    "I disagree with pig heart transplants".......fair enough, then, don't have a pig heart transplant if you need one. Same goes for marrying gay people and about 5 million other things.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    Hardly an issue really is it ? ethically at least


    I mean Im not too bothered about how the steak i had for dinner felt about it , nor will i be thinking about the potatoes that were sacrificed for the chips to go with it



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,408 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    Where's yer man , Pighead, when ya need him .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    So we save lives with pigs hearts because people are too selfish to donate theirs,

    God bless science and surgeons willing to push the envelope to save lives



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A good chunk of the world don’t eat pork because it’s ‘unclean’ but can do if it’s a matter of starvation. Presumably this means they would also be happy with donor organs if it’s a matter of life and death.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What religious views does it contravene? I'm not religious so doesn't bother me.

    No issue with using a pig heart. Not sure what genetically modified pig is exactly



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    4 legs good, 2 legs better



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,921 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    They already use pig tissue in heart surgery.

    I've a mechanical valve.

    It's not an issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,692 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    No issue with it if it works.

    If it keeps people alive who otherwise wouldn't be (even if only until a suitable human heart becomes available) then great.

    Hopefully it extends beyond just hearts and into other organs (even from other animals, although that's unlikely).

    Imagine the lives that could be saved.





  • If the religion you’re referring to is Jewish they’re not allowed eat pigs.. but no one says they can’t use the organs?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,363 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    Pigs - as intelligent as dogs and have an absolutely terrible, brutal life in industrialised farming.

    Oh, and they also provided insulin for humans who could no longer produce it.




  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭1percent


    This has the advantage of genetic modification of the animal to reduce the problem of rejection so in theory is a more beneficial source.

    In theory as this picks up and develops, say I go in to real failure, I would go to the lab have my cheek swabbed and the lab coats use my DNA to create a porcine embryo that would be geneticly identical to me. IVF it into a Sow then 3 months, 3 weeks and 3days, the gestational period for a pig, Wilber is born and 6months later once he has matured we go under the knife and do the old switcherroo of the kidneys. No issue with rejection because as far as my immune system is concerned there is no diferace.


    It has the potential that changing a liver is as minor as removing a gall bladder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    realistically that is not workable or viable as

    1. free speech means people with religious views can express those views if and where they want.
    2. one of the most important things of a religion as far as i understand is spreading the teachings and all else of that religion.
    3. if you want people who you disagree with to keep their views, religious or otherwise to themselves then ultimately it stands to reason that we should have to keep our views to ourselves on anything and never express them, which ultimately means no more boards for example.
    4. simply telling someone who disagrees with something not to partake in that something doesn't ultimately work since they disagree with it and believe that they should express their disagreement or even campaign to get the thing they disagree with stopped.
    5. this transplant is certainly more proof of the wonderful things that can be done now days, medical treatments are advancing all of the time.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Remember the first lad to get a human heart transplant in South Africa in the 60s survived less than 2 weeks. In this case, i expect lots of surgical technique learning to do to, but the real challenge to longterm success will be preventing organ rejection as the heart is a completely different species. I wonder has there been some genetic manipulation done to the donor pig?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,741 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    I was more concerned with the 'genetically modified' bit, thought they might be splicing in human DNA somehow... I think they only turn off certain genes which would trigger the immune system of the recipient to reject the transplant,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,202 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    By “ethics… and other life principles”, is this what you mean?



    I don’t think vegans and animal rights groups will be too enamoured by the idea, not sure I’m exactly taken with the idea myself tbh, from the perspective of human recipients I mean though, as opposed to any ethical concerns about animal donors - I eat meat and make use of various animal products already, wouldn’t want them inside me on a more permanent basis though than the length of time it takes to pass through my digestive system.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They are free to express themselves alright, but nobody is obliged to listen to it or even acknowledge it. And I'm equally as free to tell them to shut it.

    It is the very fact that they are "spreading the teachings and all else of that religion" which gets people's backs up. Nobody wants to hear that crap coming from such a downright disgusting and evil organisation as the RCC in Ireland.

    Imagine pontificating about the rights and wrongs of the human body when you were an integral part of the mass murder of children and their bodies. Demonising women for "straying from the path" as you sell their kids to wealthy Americans and pocketing the cash. Complicit in covering up the rampant sexual abuse of society's most vulnerable souls, to the point where you moved them along to a fresh batch of kids in the next parish over in order to save your own embarrassment.

    This week alone, the Pope was chastising everyone, not just Catholics, mind, but everyone for not having kids. Why isn't he doing his part? Why doesn't he have kids? Why doesn't he issue a papal decree to allow priests to have kids?


    The church, in fact all organised religions, are free to express whatever they want. And we are free to tell them to go fook themselves with a ball of rusty barbed wire, cos I'll be damned (literally) if I'll be lectured on the moral rights and wrongs of such a bunch of scumbags.



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  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I love animals. I despise factory farming and hope ourselves push the EU for higher standards (which we're in the best place to hit compared to most places) on animal welfare and food standards.

    That said, if one of my parents or siblings needed something out of a pig you could give me a knife and I'll kill pigs til I pass out from exhaustion if that's what it took to get it.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    How did the Catholic Church even get into this? The op merely mentioned religion as an aside, theres no indication that Catholicism is especially or even opposed to this.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It wasn't mentioned as an aside at all. The OP asked two questions, one of which was 100% about certain religious views. For too long we've been kowtowing to those certain religious views and anyone who is against saving lives through medical science such as this can swivel on it, AFAIC



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Most wives call their husbands pigs at some stage ,I'd imagine the reply coming well dear I'm part pig afterall ,

    Other options are quite slim ,make organ donation mandatory if organs can be harvested ,that way organs become available on a daily basis that could save lives ,or do a china and take organs from prisoners ,and sell them to the highest bidder,

    Or genetically modified pigs and others animals if possible being used to fill the massive supply shortages



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    If your heart gives up you should just die. Your time is up. Keeping people alive is extremely expensive in the long run. Use your time wisely and when it’s up it’s up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭boardise




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭AmberGold


    No problem with any of it. This is great progress however if I don’t know how I’d feel about the sausage sandwiches after the op. Next on the list will be pig lungs transplants into humans. Religion has no part to play in the real world!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    realistically all of that is irrelevant to my point.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,210 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    So don't have a pig heart transplant if you are marrying gay people? 🤔



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,210 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    I'm not sure about pig and human DNA, but it is well known that pig and elephant DNA just won't splice.





  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭iarann


    <quote>I'm not sure about pig and human DNA, but it is well known that pig and elephant DNA just won't splice.</quote>


    Just as well, the average weight for an elephant heart is about 12 to 21 kg, that would be some transplant!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,741 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    man-bear-pig



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,404 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Hopefully the surgeon did a good job, and didn't makes a pigs ear out of the operation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,404 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Why not use a human heart, I guess a good heart these days is hard to find.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭wandererz


    I won't comment one way or the other about this.

    A very insightful / introspective movie I remember though is Okja from 2017 (Korean).

    Watch it in HD & Dolby Atmos if you can.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,741 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    what do they do with the rest of the pig when it's fulfilled its duty?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,495 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    They use every part of the pig except the squeal.

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,512 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Man gets heart and enjoys bacon sarnie afterwards. Win win.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,900 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    I wonder how you would psychogically feel having an animal heart after a transplant.

    I'd imagine it could be nightmarish. I don't think I'd be able to ignore thinking about it for 5 minutes.

    Personally I wouldn't take it because I wouldn't be happy.

    As another poster said, when your time is up probably best to leave the stage.

    Depends on the individual at the end of the day though



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭riddles


    The pig was heard singing “a good heart these days is hard to find so please be gentle with this heart of mine!”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    would you rather be dead? that was the alternative for this patient.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Only briefly looked over the story myself so apologies if I get the details wrong. But as I understand it:

    1) Pigs are used because - surprisingly enough - their hearts are more similar to ours than Chimps and other primates. And the heart in pigs grow to the required size much faster too. 6 months I think is the required time to get it to the size required.

    2) There was 10 genetic modifications done to the pig DNA as follows:

    3) 4 of these were knocking out genes from the pig DNA - especially one which encodes for a particular molecule known to be a main player in rejection.

    4) 1 of these 4 was a growth gene which was knocked out to prevent the heart growing any more inside the human after implantation.

    5) The 6 other changes were human genes inserted into the Genome of the pig DNA. All of the modifications that I can see are related to making the heart more friendly to the human immune system response.

    6) Interestingly the transplant itself was not the only ground breaking progress here either - though of course it is the headline the public will most be interested in. But at the same time the immune system of the recipient was suppressed by a new experimental drug to prevent rejection. While the heart itself was preserved up until implantation using a new perfusion technology. So two new technologies brought into play there too.

    Overall an interesting story.

    As to the OPs questions: Not struggling with the ethics of it myself as we already use animals for food and grind up their organs to produce insulin and so on. So finding one more use on top of all that seems relatively irrelevant. What religious concerns have to do with it I am unclear. If - to paraphrase Obamas speech on secularism - the religious can translate their religiously motivated concerns into real world arguments accessible to us all - I am happy to hear them speak on the matter. Other than that - listen to them if you feel like it - and let them off down the ballot box like the rest of us :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Hoop66


    Better pigs than...


    Read Kazuo Ishiguro's "Never Let Me Go"



  • Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭pawdee


    Butcher what harm is there in trying? The irony though. Say you need a heart transplant because you've eaten too many pork scratchings? Then up steps Mr Porky himself to save your life!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,210 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    If you do get a pigs heart, don't tell the locals if you go canoeing in Leitrim.





  • Registered Users Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭chrissb8


    Nothing ethically wrong about it, killed for meat, killed for a life saving operation. If someone told me that there was an outside chance my Dad could live but a genetically altered pig had to die I wouldn't bat an eyelid. In terms of messing with the natural order, we're way past that. We have bred animals exclusively to fit our uses for them for centuries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,803 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Ah but religion is not the only source of ethical objections to exploiting pig products




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Kill a pig: LEGAL

    Eat a pig: LEGAL

    Cut out a pigs heart and put it in your body: LEGAL

    Perform oral sex on a pig: ILLEGAL

    What.

    🤯



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