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Cars to be fitted with speed limiters from July 2022.

1235

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,452 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    on the continent its common that cars switch to the other lane leaving cars free to merge. I know a lot of foreign people that I work with all give out about irish drivers not doing this.

    Even I think its a stupid rule. I always switch to the overtaking lane to let cars merge on motorways...too many times I have been behind some muppet doing 50kph trying to merge onto a 120kph motorway and they pull out in front of a stream of cars forcing them to change lanes and being completely oblivious to what they've just done.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    just because it might be courteous or common sense to pull over a lane to facilitate merging, does not suggest that the rule that merging is the responsibility of the merger is stupid.

    quite the opposite; if it became the legal responsibility of those on the motorway to let people merge it'd be chaotic; what if there's no room one lane over to move? would you have to hit the brakes to allow them to merge? how would that work?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Great argument for mandatory training for drivers getting into a new vehicle



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I think there will be a lot of disabling of GPS antennae in future cars.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,476 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I think it's gas that there's uproar over electric scooters and having their speeds capped because they are so dangerous, apparently, yet limiting cars to the actual speed limits is seen as crazy woke nonsense, even though there is still mayhem on the roads all the time. Look at all the folks who died over Xmas, I would think speed was a factor in most of these accidents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,187 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    I was looking at potential change to my car, and was looking at a Volvo V70 t8. Looking at the specs, I see that all new Volvo's are limited to 180km/h.

    A quick YouTube later and I see that a guy using vdash, quickly updated the car so that the nav was enabled and the top speed was charged to 250km/h.


    If someone wants to get around the EU speed limiting devices, it seems to be easy enough to do.

    ... Asking for a friend.. anyone handy with a vdash system in the cork area? Might be good to have a contact for the future.



    https://youtu.be/nQh9FjeU1eo



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The reason it's seen as crazy is because of the statistics on the causes of accidents don't justify it. This is a ridiculous sledgehammer being brought in to tackle a cause of only 6% of accidents. A 110db klaxon going off if a drivers eyes leave the road for more than 2 seconds while the car is in motion would likely save vastly more lives, or a continuous exhaled air sensor for the driver that prevented it's use if alcohol is detected would have a vastly more profound effect.

    This fact free obsession with speeding is beyond farcical when 80+% of accidents are caused by distraction. Making talking in a car forbidden and having a mechanism to monitor for and 'disable' it, would, I believe, have more of a benefit.

    It's like having a statistic that 94% of all burglaries being caused by people over 183cm tall and the police only stopping and questioning suspicious looking midgets in a campaign to tackle burglaries.

    Post edited by cnocbui on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,059 ✭✭✭kirving


    There's a second part to this - education to aid compliance with limits. A speed limiter will not fix urban road deaths.

    If 98% of motorists break urban speed limits, and speed is such an abhorrent danger that we need to enforce speed limiting devices, where are all the crashed where speed is a primary factor?

    I'm not try to be smart btw, I know speed can be a problem from cycling in Dublin city - how do you actually get people to understand something which is exceptionally unlikely to result in a collision for them personally? It's mostly people accelerating toward green or orange lights - red light cameras would be much better used of resources IMO.

    My driving tester would seem to agree with you. I broke the limit during the test and passed it fine. Paraphrasing here but it was along the lines of. "You were over the limit a few times, but I'm not concerned about that, you were keeping up with traffic. Just try to keep an eye on it in future is all."

    I already predict the responses to me posting an anecdote which some people won't like. "I call BS, no tester would say this". "Yeak, that didn't happen" "Do you have proof of this?" 😩



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i was told when learning to drive to always keep it at or just slightly over the limit so you won't fail, for failing to make progress.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭cavemeister


    I think driving should be a lesson taught in school like it is in America. I was driving in LA a few years ago on their insane motorway networks and the level of driving was incredible. Say what you want about Americans but you cannot fault their driving abilities.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭zom


    "This fact free obsession with speeding is beyond farcical when 80+% of accidents are caused by distraction"

    Absolutely agree. Next obligatory feature in cars should be driver facing cameras so in case of any accident you will see if they were looking at the road or their phone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    I'm pretty sure giving all Irish drivers a gun would vastly improve road manners here too 😄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    That isn't reflected in the statistics.

    Deaths per 100,000 vehicles per year:

    Norway - 3

    UK - 5.7

    Australia - 7.4

    Ireland - 7.5

    Canada - 8.9

    US - 14.2



  • Registered Users Posts: 39 Just Some Young Lad


    I agree that the klaxon might be a good idea but the exhaled air sensor wouldn't work. What if I am giving my friends a lift home from the nightclub/pub and they're all hammered? The sensor would sense their exhaled air and we wouldn't be allowed to drive.

    I agree, this is a bit too much. I'd be getting that feature coded out of my car ASAP.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,059 ✭✭✭kirving


    "Urban speed limits" implies that 98% applies to 30, 50, 60 and possibly even 80km/h limits. But that 98% figure refers to 30km/h zones only - which even DCC accuse the Gardai of not bothering to enforce. We can throw big scary numbers about all day long, but they mean next to nothing if they are so specific that bear no reflection on reality. All that happens when jumping to seemingly big impact stats is that you lose the room, and with it any genuine message you're trying to send.

    This is coming very soon. I have one of those camera in my hand right now in fact.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you mean i won't be able to post on boards.ie while driving anymore?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Is it easy enough to detect that you've got around the speed limit too?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    To be fair, the crashes are happening all around us. They happen every day. People die on our roads every week, and are seriously injured every day. Crashes on the M50 are reported with alarming regularity.

    Most people are lucky most of the time. Most people can break speed limits with crashing most of the time.

    I agree with you that education is critical. I'd push for regular re-testing of drivers to maintain a focus on continuing education. It's fairly ridiculous to done a once-in-a-lifetime test and be driving 20 or 30 years later with no assessment of skills or knowledge.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Just when I think you can't possibly say anything more stupid than you have to date, you go and prove me wrong.

    "Drivers Aged 50-65 get the Best Rates

    Insurance companies believe that drivers in this age range provide little to no risk of getting into an accident. Drivers at this age tend to be cautious of other drivers on the road. They also understand traffic laws and take fewer risks while driving."

    "Fact: Among drivers 75 and older, 3% are involved in all crashes, 8% in fatal crashes, the lowest among age categories. Compare these numbers to the 18% and 16% rates for 35-44 year olds, the group I assumed was the safest." https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/calm-brain/201304/are-older-drivers-safe

    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/truth-age-group-really-most-15789954

    85% of all serious raod accidents in the Uk are caused by male drivers under 25.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    what's the relative data?

    i.e. that shows a very small number of crashes in people 85 or older. the life expectancy in the UK is 81, so a bare figure that few crashes occur in that age bracket has near zero information content.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If you look at driver fatalities in Ireland, as opposed to accidents crashes in North Wales, you'll see a fairly even spread by age, with a spike in over 65s. It is absolutely ridiculous that someone is supposedly in control of machinery lethal to themselves and others based on a test they did 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. It wouldn't happen for any item of hazardous workplace equipment, but we allow it to happen on the roads.




  • Registered Users Posts: 34 Colliewollie


    Not so common to switch lanes in the north of Spain when cars are merging.. I drive a very old diesel (65 hp, 22 years ago!!) and I have to be very strategic and careful when merging onto dual carriageways or motorways here (especially uphill) as a lot of drivers do not give the courtesy of actually moving over even when the outter lane is empty..


    Obviously many drivers do switch lanes, like myself when it's safe to do so.. I see it as a lack of courtesy.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think an eye test every time the driving licence is renewed would be a much better safety measure, and would cost next to nothing.

    It could be implemented by the clerk who is checking the documentation when the applicant is attending the renewal. 'Could you read the letters on the screen behind me please?' A knowledge of the rules of the road could be checked at the same time by filling a 10 question form printed as a set of randomly selected questions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    That's just deaths and is talking of drivers who were in accidents and doesn't separate out who caused the accident. A ridiculous all encompassing 65+ age category captures 80-90+ year olds who are likely frail and tend to die at a higher rate as a result of accidents that younger drivers would have survived. More risible inadequate Irish data collection and analysis. That rubbish you are basing your stupid opinin on captures old people who through no fault of their own, were hit by a drunk sub 25 young male driver and died and make the meaningless dead driver category in higher numbers due to age infirmities. The data is the wrong sort, is inadequately collected, is badly skewed and doesn't support your stupid notion.

    I got my motorcycle and car licences when I was 18. You are suggesting I need a retest at 38 or 48 when the data clearly shows declining accident causality with age.

    Follow the money - car insurance companies know whats what, which is why the premiums are lowest for people in just the age categories you deem to be unsafe. You think speeding is a significant cause of lots of accidents - 6% - and now you think the safest age categories of drivers can't be trusted to be behind the wheel and need to be retested. Have you considered getting an education and learning how to distinguish fact from fiction and how to think critically?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    What data are yo basing this on? The 85% of serious accidents being caused by male drivers under the age of 25? Unbelievable....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,194 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    I suspect that most peoples frustration is to have a hard limit whereby the risk is completely variable.

    Do speed limits get set based on the worst probable situations, i.e., wet dark, busy roads. If so, doing 20km/h over this limit shouldnt be an issue if conditions are more favourable.

    This notion that its bad going over what is in affect an arbitary limit is a diluted argument. Limit cars to 160km/h I can understand but to have it match each limit on each road I think is over the top.

    My vote would be have a tolerance above the limit allowed, say 20 - 30%.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    "In 2016, uncorrected or defective eyesight contributed to more than 250 people suffering injuries on UK road"

    In 2016 there were 181,384 road cccident cassualties in the UK.

    Yeah, we need to spend many millions on tackling 0.1378 % of injuries when the national debt is already at €150,000 per income tax payer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    They're moving to online renewals so I don't think you can rely on there being a Patty/Selma clerk in the office. A theory test as part of the renewal is a good idea, and could be done online, just like the theory test for learners now.

    Would be minimal costs involved, as people would be paying for a test, just as learners do at present.

    I get confused when you talk about accidents and causes. If they are accidents, then surely there is no cause, because they're just accidents. If there is a cause, they're not accidents, they are crashes or collisions. Speeding isn't accidental. You don't accidentally press the accelerator.

    But regardless, your callous disregard for the deaths of elderly drivers is noted. Your meaningless data doesn't show scenarios where old people would have been able to get out of the way of the drunk sub 25 young male driver if they had better reaction times.

    I'm not sure where you got your 6% figure about speed from. Here's what the RSA tell us about speeding:

    • Of the driver and motorcycle driver fatalities with a record of their actions leading up to the collision (n = 387), 25% (n = 95) were exceeding a safe speed.
    • excessive speed was a contributory factor in 1 in 3 fatal collisions between 2008 and 2012. This may not have been the sole cause of the collision. 
    • of this number 19% cited excessive speed as the sole contributory factor. 
    • of the 322 people killed in speed-related collisions, 158 were drivers, 49 were motorcyclists and 100 were passengers. 

    Clearly, speeding on our roads is a very big issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Driving gloves


    I have noticed on some stretches of motorway that the speed limit sign for 120 km/h is often far down the slip road.

    If the car relies on sign reading technology then it will prevent drivers from getting up to speed before joining. Carnage.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,574 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    This has been explained to you previously. "Excessive speed" in RSA parlance refers to (an arbitrary judgement that) a driver was driving at a speed too fast for the conditions (a safe speed may be well below the limit), and not to exceeding the posted speed limit. The best data available to us indicates that only a minority of "excessive speed" crashes are primarily due to driving in excess of the limit - i.e. this nanny state nonsense will not do anything to prevent the vast majority of crashes and may in fact make things worse (as a driver of a car with a bang up to date similar system, they simply aren't reliable in determining the correct limit).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If they're not routinely breaking the speed limits, then they have nothing to fear from the speed limiters. They won't be affected at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I know that slipway theres another one at ennis, they are absolutely lethal. It's not the speed limiters that would cause the accident its the ridiculously designed slipways



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    They might move those signposts?? Maybe needs to be done anyway, this could force them to do what needs to be done



  • Registered Users Posts: 42 Driving gloves


    What if the 120 sign is blocked by shrubs and the car can’t see it and thus get up to speed?



  • Registered Users Posts: 529 ✭✭✭yoke


    Relying on physical signs would be easily beaten as a system, you’ll get random jokers putting up cardboard signs with “120” painted on residential roads. Or a transparent mini display of the sort used currently in rearview mirror overlays which attaches in front of the camera lens and occasionally flashes the image of a sign saying “120” at random intervals. Or just throw some dirt on the camera lens and watch the system fail.

    relying on GPS and a database of street speed limits would have the problem of what to do when gps is not available - presumably these cars aren’t only going to be sold in Ireland. Again, you’d get jokers going around with GPS jammers so either everyone’s car stops, or everyone can break the speed limit (whatever behaviour the manufacturers choose for when no GPS signal). Or else just drive around with a gps jammer yourself and break the limit all day.

    based on all the above, the best they could actually enforce effectively with current technology would be an absolute top speed limit on every car, fixed at say 130kph or something. It’s going to prevent **** all deaths - I don’t know how many people die a year due to speeding over 130kph but it’s not the majority of road fatalities


    stupid, expensive, unworkable idea that might be profitable to car companies, but no one else. At present anyway…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Do you think this would be a good reason for not introducing a life saving measure? Or maybe you could put in a report to get the shrubs cut back?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    We have CARnage today, with 2 or 3 people killed on the roads each week and speeding being one of the major causes of road deaths?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,059 ✭✭✭kirving



    • Excessive speed was a contributory factor in 1 in 3 fatal collisions between 2008 and 2012. This may not have been the sole cause of the collision. 

    What percentage did excessive speed play in the collison, or was it incidental? Did they hit a tree at 90km/h in an 80km/h zone because thy were on the phone, but hitting it at 70km/h would have killed the driver anyway? 1/3 is too simplistic a figure IMO.

    • of this number 19% cited excessive speed as the sole contributory factor. 

    So 6.27% of crashes were caused by "excessive speed" alone.

    Of those, how many were excessive, but below the posted speed limit?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Ok, let's look at it another way then.


    What do you think are the major causes of the 150-ish deaths on the road each year?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,059 ✭✭✭kirving


    Car crashes are. But from such a proponent of (currently unreliable) technology, I'd be interested to hear the answers to the following:

    • Of the 1/3rd of fatal road collisions where "excessive speed" was a contributing factor, what percentage of these were driving below the posted limit?
    • Of the 6.27% of fatal road collisions where "excessive speed" whas the sole contributing factor, what percentage of these were driving below the posted limit?

    The RSA are very careful in their language to state excessive speed, rather than "exceeding the posted speed limit". The two are very different.

    Speed limiters are only as good as the posted limit.

    As an example, I know this place off the top of my head. 30km/h is just about safe to do here. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5183933,-8.8330604,3a,75y,89.38h,78.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZRLs3X_oMZqfBkKsiB5KcA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

    The posted limit is only somewhat related to the actual safe speed that an average driver can safely navigate the road. It's sometimes due to local complaints (to raise and lower the limit), noise pollution, traffic flow, expected weather conditions, and to direct drivers toward primary routes (I recall that the old N4 or N6 had it's limit lowered, where people would leave the M6 or M6 to skip the toll).

    "Speeding" to most people means exceeding the posted limit. Mandatory speed limiters reinforce that thinking.

    Boiling down road safety to a vague primary cause of "speeding" (ie: exceeding the limit) actually does little to help the population's understanding of why and how excessive speed, amongst other things, contributes to crashes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Post edited by AndrewJRenko on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,059 ✭✭✭kirving


    You've posted the RSA headline stats which refer to "excessive speed".

    I'm asking for a the link between that excessive speed, and the effectiveness of mandatory speed limiters. (which are based on the posted limit.).


    Your last two posts are deflection from this question, but I believe it's an important one in determining whether speed limiters will be valuable in reducing road deaths in Ireland.

    Where have I sad that there is no value in speed limiters? Pure strawmanning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If you want more details on RSA research, then contact the RSA. I've found one of their research people to be fairly decent at responding. I'm not your researcher here. I'm posting what every safety authority, and every police force in the world will tell you, that speeding is a major cause of crashes, deaths and injuries on the road.

    What we are seeing on this thread is a total resistance to a reasonable safety measure, mainly because the lads won't be able to get their jollies going vroom vroom.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,059 ✭✭✭kirving


    So you're happy to repeatedly post their headline stats, imply that they're applicable to this argument, but then deflect when it's pointed out that their definition of "excessive speed" is not the same as the "exceeding the posted limit".

    When you say "speeding" above, do you mean:

    A) driving above a safe speed for the road conditions (ie: "excessive"), or

    B) driving above the posted limit?

    You're using stats for A), to help justify introduction of laws related to B) only.

    There is reason why their bulletins do *not* say "exceeding the posted limit was a factor in 1/3 of crashes". So I can only conclude that they're referring to A), which I actually happen to agree with for the most part.

    Some of the reason I'm pointing out this difference, is that the RSA themselves seem to specifially differentiate between the two.


    I don't have much issue with a reliable and safe speed limiter, my 200km one way commute is quiet motorway door to door. I turn on cruise control to 120km/h and relax.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    copped this while coming off the M50 earlier - i was in the exit lane for northbound on the N2, which takes you in a tight circle for 270 degrees; this is what you can see from the M50. the sign is about 2m further from the main M50 carriageway than the signs applying to the M50.

    https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4048924,-6.3094969,3a,75y,236.51h,80.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOcZ_sKBkNF8XQUJZI3ptgQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,059 ✭✭✭kirving


    Good spot!

    These types of edge cases can and do cause problems, particularly if the tech isn't totally reliable. We can't launch blindly into this if there are obvious issues.

    Will a car on cruise control hit the brakes hard? Will it ease off the throttle?

    Infrastructure design is a big part of it too. We need to be looking at how our roads and cities are designed so that we make the enevitable switch to autonomous cars safer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Do you think there's much of an overlap between A and B in the real world?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i've come up with a frankly genius solution. doesn't even need explanation.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,059 ✭✭✭kirving


    You're certainly adept at wearing someone down by repeatedly deflecting from direct questions.

    There might be some overlap, but if it was significant, I don't think the RSA would be quite so specific in their language. They're absolutely not one and the same. Look at the 80km/h 1.5 lane width road I posted above - that is unfortunately a common sight in this country.

    You've posted the collision statistics, I'm asking how applicable they are.



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