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War criminal Tony Blair to be given most senior knighthood in new year honours list

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,123 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Is this genuine or are you parodying the activist class?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,013 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    If my aunt had a schlong she'd be my uncle.

    Iraq was being led by a murderous dictator who was gassing to death his countrymen women and children.

    1000's of Iraqi's had their heads chopped off at his command. He needed taking out for war crimes.

    Blair facilitated this and I have no problem with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Ah yes, the attempted smart remark because you can’t debate the facts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    And that Iraqi leader who was gassing civilians was backed by Reagan and Thatcher. So why weren’t they hauled off for complicity of his crimes? Why don’t the media mention their part in his crimes when they discuss their legacies? Bit too inconvenient I guess because the media weren’t complaint too at the time. (Bar ITN who exposed Saddam gassing humans and the Western backing for it).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,933 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    I might be somewhat comfortable with the ideal of one country deciding to remove the leader of another country if they did so using some of their special forces or supposedly smart bombs. When it's done in a manner that inflicts death and destruction on literally millions of people in that country, over several generations, I find it hard to be so.

    History has shown not only that the arguments put forward at the time for the war were irrefutably false and manipulated, but that those in power, certainly in the US and most likely the UK at the time knew just how false they were.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,013 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    Reagan and Thatcher had a lot more to answer for than Blair. Thatcher especially.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Because they didnt supply Saddam with chemicals? France and Germany did though...allegedly. Very naughty. Actually Thatcher came up with all kinds of wheezes to supply military equipment to Iraq that could not be classified as weapons.

    But...but...but... the USA...

    Saddam was overtly backed by Russia, China, Israel, France, North Korea, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Germany and quite a few others. The US, like Israel backed both sides at various points when it suited them and kept the conflict going because it suited them



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 914 ✭✭✭buzzerxx


    In response to the OP, This is a Mockery of the once heralded honour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,624 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace



    These little trinkets, and accolades are so meaningful. Obama slaughtered thousands with his drone Tuesday and he was given a Nobel Peace prize.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭boombang


    I'm just making the point that in everyday language the word criminal can denote someone who has committed, but not been convicted of, criminal acts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    The US protected Saddam from war crimes charges that’s why they get a special mention. Without them blocking Iran’s legal action, a lot of lives would have been saved.

    I’m fully aware of the wrongs of other nations, but I’ve no idea why you’re pretending the US is being victimised here for their part in Saddam’s war crimes and crimes against humanity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭timmymagoo


    Regime change sounds good

    Husssian gaddafi now assad and if possible the Iranians

    The problem for me is Tony Blair is a very clever guy and he knew entering Afghanistan and Iraq would long term only make things worse so why did he push for it

    That's the question he is never really pushed on

    Cheney wanted revenge full stop, that I can get

    But Blair had no skin in the game, so why did he actively push the wars not just in the UK But around the world

    I don't get it



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭John Doe1


    The man should be in prison for popularising neo-liberalism never mind the war crimes.

    He also seems like the sort of guy who would be friends with Epstein and that ilk..



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Except for the claims that Saddam had WMDs which was the core excuse used for the invasion of Iraq. The US has never managed to prove their existence. And while you acknowledge that their true aim was regime change, that's still a major problem in itself.

    Western nations steered the development of the UN, over the decades, to be a mechanism against that kind of intention. It's the reason why the US used the CIA covertly rather than military intervention in South America, and Africa, to put in regimes that were favorable to their interests (often placing rather dodgy regimes in power). Whenever other nations (Soviet Russia in particular) sought the change of regimes to favor their own politics, the UN and Western condemnation was there to block such efforts.

    It weakens the stance of being the good guys in international diplomacy, and makes a mockery of claiming to protect the freedoms of others... because they'll seek to dismantle to choices of others who don't conform with their plans for a region.

    Iraq was a war based on lies/faked evidence told to the international community to bring about regime change.. and yes, it did destabilize the overall region, causing the fall of regimes (not solely Iraq) and the push of people towards more fundamentalist Islam, which these former regimes stood against. They weren't great regimes, but then, from a western perspective, very few foreign governments match up to western values and interests, but they were often replaced by something even worse.

    That's why this is important. That's why we shouldn't be in such a rush to forget or approve the invasion of Iraq. It was a short-sighted intervention with little consideration of what might have happened to the region, and the actual lives of the people who lived there. The same with most regime change efforts by the US (or the UK) over the last century.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr



    The US went into Iraq the open, stated aim of forcing regime change. Good luck retrofitting criminal charges onto their decisions. Despite what Clare Daly whinges about, going to war is still not a crime in itself.

    All the rest of your post is just the usual bellyaching of the west being baddies, like there's actual goodies out there. 😂

    I would actually agree that the west should leave stable dictatorships in place, so long as they are not acting against the west, but I won't have people who spout guff about Blair being a war criminal make the case for leaving Saddam in place as well.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Tony Blair is not a good human no matter how much people try to justify his actions.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nice amount of revisionism there in your posts... makes me wonder if you even remember the narrative leading up to the invasion.

    As for the rest, it's obvious you're not interested in engaging in a discussion, since you constantly dismiss/deflect others points rather than dealing with them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Disagree strongly, Blair is a ghoul, Thatcher had legitimate grounds to take back the Falklands. Blair had none to invade Iraq

    History will be far kinder to Thatcher



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,624 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    IN terms of foreign policy, maybe; but not domestically. She'll aways be remembered for the miners strike and the poll tax riots.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    not by everyone , she improved the economic status of the UK immeasurably overall from 1979 to 1990



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,239 ✭✭✭Be right back


    I spotted that there is an online petition for it to be taken back. Thousands have signed it, up to 200,000 in a day.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,624 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    And then was forced to resign because it wasn't universal.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    everyone cant be a winner but the bottom line is the UK was far stronger when she left in 1990 than when she arrived in 1979



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Gaddafi, a good friend of Ireland was taken down in collaboration with Western media feeding the public lies to make them believe that interfering in Libya was necessary, Libya was one of the most well off African countries with one of the highest standards of living yet the west expect us to believe this was some sort of humanitarian mission?

    Western media claimed that he was using ''rape as a weapon'' Human rights organisations did cast doubt later on about claims of mass rape and other abuses perpetrated by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, which have been widely used to justify Nato's war in Libya.

    Nato leaders, opposition groups and the media have produced a stream of stories since the start of the insurrection on 15 February, claiming the Gaddafi regime has ordered mass rapes, used foreign mercenaries and employed helicopters against civilian protesters.

    An investigation by Amnesty International has failed to find evidence for these human rights violations and in many cases has discredited or cast doubt on them. It also found indications that on several occasions the rebels in Benghazi appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence which western media then took at face value in order to bolster support for the war.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Blair will be remembered for two things:

    The Iraq war

    His policies of mass immigration which ultimately led to Brexit.

    Both of these will rankle him forever, no amount of awards will every make up for that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    The gassing occured during the period when Saddam was considered a western ally and was in receipt of western aid during his war against iran. N o action was taken against him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,013 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    I don't think Blair ever considered him a western ally. Reagan and Thatcher did though. That's the whole point see.

    The Labour party raised it in Parliament but were told "Saddam was an ally" by Thatcher's regime.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults


    It was Blair who destroyed Labour. He achieved medium-term success by dragging the party to the right and essentially becoming a clean and 'nice' version of the Tories. Labour voters voted for him because it was (nominally, at least) Labour. Loads of Tories voted for him too because their policies posed no threat to the rich. The Tories were always going to get their act together eventually, clean themselves up a little (on the exterior, at least) and win those voters back. It left Labour with nowhere to go, except back towards genuine left-leaning politics.

    Corbyn peaked in 2017 and should've gone then. The anti-Semitism nonsense was really ramped up after that election. There's no way the British establishment was going to let a left-winger get that close to power again.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I doubt he cares all that much tbh.

    Politicians have a wonderful ability to ignore what doesn't mesh with their outlook. After all, they tend to leave office with heaps in pensions, security, etc. in addition to all those conference key speeches they're paid for, or the scope for writing. There will always be plenty of people willing to praise him (or other politicians), regardless of those who had a negative impression of his actions/decisions.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,477 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Over a decade in power is hardly 'medium-term' success. Their image was hardly a 'clean and nice' version of the Tories, it was a more less ideological clean and nice version of a hard socialist left.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,624 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    That's the point: you're supposed to govern for eveyone, not just the rich. That mistake left her legacy one of violent uprising in the streets.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    Not sure if mentioned but a great documentary about New Labour on the BBC iPlayer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults


    They served three terms - and at some point next year, they'll have been out of office for longer than they were in it. It wasn't long-term success. And they were literally nothing more than a clean and nice version of the Tories. They bore no resemblance whatsoever to a party of the left. It wasn't for nothing that Thatcher described Tony Blair as her greatest achievement. Once the Tories cleaned themselves up and shifted towards the centre ground, they went back into power and have yet to lose it. The closest Labour came to winning an election was in 2017, having moved back towards a left-leaning position under Corbyn. Without all the smears, they probably would've won. Now they're being led by a sort of 'Blair-lite' bland centrist, they're floundering. And they'll continue to flounder until the electorate has a distinct reason to vote for them instead of the Tories.



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    They never would've won with Corbyn, and they didn't. Simple fact is labour have always been notorious for losing but for the first time in their history won 3 consequitive elections under Blair. It's more success than they have ever had.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Corbyn far too socialist for me but he strikes me as a man of great integrity and was treated appallingly by the media.


    Blair is a slime ball



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    I agree, he still would not have won however. One of the biggest turn offs for me with Boris was his cowardice in not facing Andrew Neill as he knew he'd get a pasting.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You defeat your own argument when, literally directly after saying Blair "destroyed Labour", you refer to the verb "to achieve" and the noun "success".



  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    While the US gets most of the blame for the Iraq wars, Britain, a country that in its militaristic aspect is little more than a rogue state and a bully, has been meddling in the region for centuries. It's part of their cultural tradition, innit? (France, another rogue state in its militaristic aspect, has been meddling for centuries in the ME and North Africa too, but stepped back for the Iraq war... back in since, of course, stirring trouble in Libya and beyond.)



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,537 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    As far as I know, admission to the Order of the Garter is a convention for former prime ministers. However, it has a fixed amount of members so the reason Blair is getting admitted now is that it's taken this long for a vacancy to arise. The Order dates back to Edward III and the fourteenth century. It did mark the beginning of the calamitous hundred years war so at least they're being consistent.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭Freddie Mcinerney




  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭Freddie Mcinerney


    Still be good not go to war on a fabrication. At least Robin Cook see different.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,123 ✭✭✭✭Danzy




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults


    Do you understand the concept of nuance? The nature of how he achieved that success placed Labour in a position where, once the Tories got their act together, there would be little difference between the two parties. That's not to say that Labour won't inevitably return to power some day, but they're relying on Johnson or his successors destroying the Tories first. It's no coincidence that Labour's best post-2010 election result in 2017 (actually their highest share of the vote since 2001) came after the party shifted towards a left-leaning position (i.e. they differentiated themselves from the Tories).



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    If a petition gets 10,000 signatures, the government will respond, If a petition gets 100,000 signatures, it will be considered for debate in Parliament

    So far 632,747 have signed the petition

    Boris will be well aware that allowing Blair to be eviscerated could put him in the same position over Brexit and Covid and sleaze later on.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The honour is a grant of the Queen alone - no number of signatures can force the government to change that so they can debate all they want but as they (the gov) were not part of the decision then there's fanny adams they can do about it directly.

    'War Criminal' - love it. That is your opinion, not fact, but I'm going to get flamed for that... so fair warning; regardless of my thoughts about Sir Tony, I don't give a toss about your opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Blair's (and others) freedom from the consequence of their actions speaks volumes about the way International "justice" is tailored to keep various actors beyond reproach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Where can you sign or must you be a UK citizen?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's on change.org (easy enough to find) ... this is not the UK Gov petition website (which I assumed with my earlier comments) so all it is is a record of people who object... and I would guess anyone can 'sign'

    Capt'n Midnight is wrong (sorry) but this 'petition' can hit 10,000,000 signatures and it'll still mean diddly squat as regards having the government debate the matter - my original comment still stands, however, this particular knighthood is the Queens' choice alone (presumably with 'advisers' in the background) so it is not the usual governments recommends, HM obliges like the run of the mill New Year honours.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Like I said "it will be considered for debate in Parliament"



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