Wheel of Time (Amazon)

lordgoat · 30-12-2021 10:17am

Agree with most of the comments here, there were strong female characters in the books, they were just really poor as Jordan for me was a very limited writer, especially when it came to writing female point of views etc.

They of course had to sex up the show a lot which for me has made a lot of the relationships messy and I'm expecting the next series to basically do it's own thing. Rand and Perrin end up as total snorefests in the books, the women characters incredibly annoying as all they do is pout and tug there braid and then rage, which left you with Mat, whose story was interesting and well paced (when he was actually in the books).

Hadn't seen those comments from Rafe, man his grasp of the series is worse than mine, but I read them last over 10 years ago and I don't have to make a tv show on them.

I'm almost half tempted to re-read again.

30-12-2021 11:39am

They are setting Egwene up as this fantastic character. I assume, therefore, that they are going to ignore her development into a coercive, manipulative, and abusive bully?

30-12-2021 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118389724#Comment_118389724

I pretty much agree with all you say here.

Jordan built a fantastic, vibrant, and open world of grand ideas. His interpersonal writing skills were horrendous. His ideas of how genders view each other (male and female) was confusing, to say the least.

This show just needed some skill to smooth out those rough edges while bringing the lore front and centre.

But nope, Rafe looks like he is using the WoT brand to bring his own unwritten story (fan fic) to life

Flinty997 · 30-12-2021 11:56am

Jordans characters are all very simplistic not just the women. By and large women have equal standing in Jordans general society and are entirely dominant when it comes to magic. Look at the Seanchan Look at the Aiel all strong women characters.

There's analysis here...

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/sci-fi-fantasy/statistical-analysis-wheel-time/

So it's pretty gender even. That's not true of the TV show. The TV show has effectively neutered the male characters not just in screen time. But more importantly stripped them out of most of the main plot development. Very obviously too.

Most fantasy books, story's, have a rules based magical system. Everything has to fit within those rules. It gives everything context, the show has already broken those rules, made new ones then broken those as well. This will continue as their character changes are not thought out. So there is no rules framework. Hence there is no context.

30-12-2021 12:29pm

The touchstone for fantasy adaption has to be LOTR. Especially if you read the original treatment is was to get (WoT backlash is nothing compared to what that would have been)

There are massive changes in the films

No Bombadil

No Barrowdowns and wights, meaning no moment of glory for the westernesse dagger

No Glorfindel, subsumed into Arwen

Ents done nasty

Gimli's character changes from noble dwarf to comic relief

No Sharky or Shire pillage

Crumbs on jackets

Army of the dead at Minas Tirith

But through all that the story is the the same. The characters have their growth points (including the hobbled Gimli).

It IS The Lord of The Rings, fully recognisable as such even through the changes.

Can people, honestly, say that the WOT is the same story so far?

30-12-2021 12:42pm

Egwene imo becomes the best character in the books

Because Jordan packed so much Rand story into 1-6 he by necessity becomes a more distant character thereafter until close enough to book 11 or so

This meant a lot of development and focus on other Two Rivers characters from then on, all to good effect imo (apart from Nynaeve who pretty much is set aside as a Sanderson character)

Now, if a competent TV writer/plotter saw this as a whole and said "thats actually a flaw and a problem, I will have to probably ease off on Rand and frontload the other plots in series 1" then I would have said there's a person who knows what they are at.

What we got didn't serve that necessity (tweaked and better), it has imo delivered totally different and much worse and again the point isnt "this isnt the books word for word!" the point is "this isnt the books, so why bother saying youve adapted the books, and also its crap no matter what its based on"

jackboy · 30-12-2021 12:58pm

I’d be a bit worried they are trying to make up for the perceived ‘errors’ of GOT which portrayed women in power as just as evil and cruel as men. The was a lot of stick after the feminist hero mother of dragons was reduced to a psychotic killer.

As the WOT books went on the women realized they were not as in control and all powerful as they first thought and could not possibly win without working with the men as equals. The way the show is going it will be hard for most of the female characters to show that they actually need the men and cannot succeed without them.

Flinty997 · 30-12-2021 1:31pm

GOT is very similar to WOT on that it got lost with too many characters and too many story arcs. Many of which went nowhere.

GOT had an even more ruthless purge of these at the end resulting in a car crash ending which was completely out of context with the characters or their story arcs.

GOT though has far more character depth and realisim. I'm not sure it's even possible to compare it with Jordans simplistic characters. WOT is a simple good vs evil fantasy fairytale with Magic.

They may look similar superficially, but they are very different in reality.

Black Sheep · 30-12-2021 3:48pm

In the WOT source material have multiple hero’s journeys going on, for both sexes, and people responded to the romanticism and the way Jordan executed proven archetypes. It was a hit for similar reasons the first Matrix movie and the first Star Wars trilogies were hits.

On the show they’ve retained a hero’s journey arc for the female Two Rivers folk, but Rafe doesnt appear to be comfortable giving the boys the same treatment. I suspect we’ll find his male characters are either bad, mad or need to suffer / learn / make contrition before they can take their place at the hero’s table.

jackboy · 30-12-2021 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118391322#Comment_118391322

Rand already did this by stating that Egwene would never settle to be a housewife. He had to demonstrate that he was supportive of that to be the dragon.

Flinty997 · 30-12-2021 4:28pm

I think people liked the mechanics of the magic system, and the world that he created.

I've no idea what's the magic system is in the TV show. Seems random.

Flinty997 · 30-12-2021 4:28pm

Tyrone212 · 30-12-2021 5:06pm

I never read the books but I binge watched this over Christmas.

First few episodes were good and action packed. Middle of the series was boring enough. The final few episodes were a bit underwhelming. The defence of the city was very poorly done IMO ,like something you would have seen twenty years ago and the cave scene at the end pretty meh.

So it peaked in the first couple of episodes then declined with a minor improvement towards the end. Not sure if I'll watch season 2. I liked Moiraine's performance, good actress.

mewso · 30-12-2021 11:36pm

Pretty funny how at any point in the blight you could look to the side through a gap and see the spot you have spent the last few hours walking away from.

Mr.Fantastic · 31-12-2021 2:34am

Finished watching this recently, and there was some decent bits in it but my god it was incredibly dull at times.

In comparison to LOTR or the Witcher this really didn't grab me.

Need a Username · 31-12-2021 1:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394477#Comment_118394477

I like it but it hasn’t “grabbed” me either.

Pike is great in everything but her supporting cast is rather dull other than Matt (who of course has been recast - does anyone know why this happened?)

It got a bit more interesting in the last episode I saw with Maria Doyle Kennedy showing up as a tinker woman and the mysterious singer who saved Matt and boring guy.

Need a Username · 31-12-2021 2:01pm

Are there any other sword and sorcery fantasy shows from around world ?

The Witcher (no 1)

Game of Thrones

Kingdom (Korea)

Is Arthdal Chronicles good? And are the 18 episodes on Netflix the first and complete story?

pixelburp · 31-12-2021 2:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118395779#Comment_118395779

They're all YA oriented but the only 3 I can think of: more steampunk but I believe Shadow and Bone reviewed well? Could be wrong though. Cursed adapted the Arthurian legend from the view of the Lady of the Lake - but got cancelled. The Letter for the King was another and it's still in limbo re. renewal IIRC.

Sudden Valley · 31-12-2021 2:22pm

Shadow and bone was watchable but for most of it read like a teen romance. Very few fantasy shows even the cw that has a tonne of superhero shows only had one very cheap looking fantasy show the outpost.

Black Sheep · 31-12-2021 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118395779#Comment_118395779

The Outpost springs to mind, although I never watched it!

pixelburp · 31-12-2021 2:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118395900#Comment_118395900

Oh yeah made sure to say they were all YA. But sure don't know what Need a Username is into 😎 Fantasy is expensive and doesn't seem entirely popular these days in the zeitgeist. Guess that's why it's rare to see.

Flinty997 · 31-12-2021 3:15pm

What's YA?

pixelburp · 31-12-2021 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118396144#Comment_118396144

The genre of "young adult", so think Hunger Games or Harry Potter by way of two examples. Advanced stories that dabble with more adult subject matter, albeit often coated with a degree of bloodlessness; thematically they usually acts as metaphors for growing up, adolescence etc.

Need a Username · 31-12-2021 3:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118395821#Comment_118395821

Shadow and Bone is on my to watch list because there is the steam punk element.

I keep forgetting about Cursed because it got cancelled. I thought to the Letter to the King was medical adventure, didn’t know it was fantasy. That long in limbo must mean it is not getting another season.

Thanks for the reminders on those.

Need a Username · 31-12-2021 3:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118395900#Comment_118395900

I never watched The Outpost for the reason it was cheap looking and it seems to be some kind of a THE 100 knock off.

Is it still going? Thought that was cancelled.

Need a Username · 31-12-2021 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118395985#Comment_118395985

YA fantasy/sci-fin is fine with me as long as there is more to than the “romance”.

Loafing Oaf · 31-12-2021 4:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118395779#Comment_118395779

Vikings is pretty decent and a lot of it verges on fantasy tbh

Need a Username · 31-12-2021 4:08pm

Don’t you know that as soon as I post about how Wheel of Time hasn’t caught my full interest I watch an episode that kicks it all up a fair fee notches.

It was the episode where the Aei Sedai are holding a wizard claiming to be the Dragon and then his army attacks.

It took the focus off the angst riddled twenty somethings who behave like teenagers and onto some interesting characters and interesting aspects of the world like the tinkers and the Aei Sedai and their concubine sidekicks.

The battle wasn’t up to the quality that Game of Thrones had but it is great to see a fantasy’s adventure where the characters who have magic actually use magic. And it is fun to be able to see the magic.

Also I’m glad that the constantly pissed off bird in the group is apparently the Dragon Reborn. I was worried it was going either Romeo or Juliet.

31-12-2021 4:54pm

Shadow and Bone was good imo, well done with plenty of style

Need a Username · 31-12-2021 4:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118396380#Comment_118396380

Vikings is great stuff - finished it a few months ago.

Wheel of Time (Amazon)

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