Wheel of Time (Amazon)

Most, here at least, couldn't have cared what race the Two Rivers were presented as. The issue was that there were different races in the absolutely isolated village after something like 2000 years. It's symptomatic of the level of detail the showrunners have failed at.

This show needed fan goodwill to find its feet and drive engagement through good social media word of mouth. I can't see it surviving if it sh1ts on the books fans while trying to generate new viewers. Hearing that the showrunners are, basically, casting aside the inbuilt fan base is worrying about their plans

Black Sheep

Agree, the fact they made Perrin black and Egwene aboriginal is the least of the issues going on (Actually for me it’s not an issue at all really).

From the books I don’t recall offhand but I’m not sure it was ever made explicit Perrin was white, for that matter, but I could be wrong.

The main criticism I’ve heard of the casting of Egwene is the actress is not pretty enough, I didn’t think that had a racial undertone but I can understand that it might in some cases. A bit of a mean critique either way btw!

I do think making the Two Rivers as whole very multicultural from the beginning - rather than later - was a misstep but I could put up with it if the rest of it hung together well. Don’t think it’s a big spoiler to say that it makes more sense later in the series.

They could have had bags of diversity on screen, with no messing with the world building, with the Aes Sedai and Whitecloaks - both multi ethnic, multi national organisations - but obviously they felt more is better.

Ah jesus the girl is gorgeous, we'll have none of that now!

Black Sheep

I’m definitely not saying that, I think she’s ‘grand’.

pixelburp

Finished episode 6 and I think the main shows problem for me is 8 episodes isn't enough for this story. 13 was the traditional "short" season fadó, and methinks an extra 5 would have given some breathing room for character arcs. Episode 6 gave us a new character and a couple of twists and developments and I was like 🤷 ok. I can't suddenly care about someone you just introduced Wheel of Time. Ditto the ending: this show needs to take a breath.

Two Rivers was maybe a slip in terms of how it should have presented, but the ethnicity thing doesn't bother me. It's no more distracting than the coiffured hair and ludicrous inaccuracies you'd see in old Hollywood historical films of yore. I'm used to seeing a plethora of faces in my life, silly fantasy stories don't seem especially jarring.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118373751#Comment_118373751

It's jarring because Two Rivers is defined by it's isolation and later exposure to the wider world.

As for more breathing room, yeah this show could do with 13 episodes to fully establish the world and rules BUT considering the showrunners wasted the time they had on dead end narrative, I doubt they'd have used this time well

Outkast_IRE

I enjoyed it , its a departure from the books but so what.

I actually think the special and visual effects are grand. Have had no issues with the sound mix or audio watching it UHD on Amazon Prime, with a good 3.1 soundbar picking up the Dolby Atmos etc.

I think they covered alot of ground often not explaining anything at all . it could of certainly done with a few more episodes and fleshed out some battle / fight scenes a bit more , and the build up to them . There was no investment from the viewer in "holding the gap" and what it meant if it fell really.

Mr.Nice Guy

As a non-book reader, I found the finale disappointing.

What frustrated me the most is that for all the great, grandiose talk of the show that has been built up over all the episodes about the importance of destiny, of sacrifice, of battles of the ages etc...ultimately, the show doesn't seem to have the balls to back that up. There are no grave consequences for the protagonists and there always seems to be an 'out'.

Spoiler Warning

Moiraine sick and at the point of death...no worries Nynaeve heals her. Mat sick and seemingly at the point of losing himself...it's grand, Moiraine cures him. Lan and Moiraine killed in battle! No worries, Nynaeve brings them back from the dead. Oh wow, Moiraine gets killed by The Dark One! Ah no, it was a dream sequence. Oh here we go, Nynaeve dead in the finale. Well, at least that's a big moment that shows the significance of what theyve been fighiting for all this time and- oh wait, Egwene just cured her. Never mind.

It's hard to invest in the drama when we're seeing over and over that the stakes just aren't that high. That's what I liked about Game of Thrones because you felt like any character at any moment could be next to get the chop. I don't get that sense here. It's a shame because there are some nice ideas but the old writing adage of 'kill your darlings' seems to have been replaced by 'magically heal them at every opportunity'. The problem with going to that well so often is that in the end the feeling of jeopardy and suspense is lost.

endacl

Right. Just finished it. Gave it a chance. Never got good.

Fred Astaire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118373751#Comment_118373751

Yes but it's actually a plot point in the books that Two Rivers folk all look the same and then there's one person (The Dragon) who looks strikingly different - which immediately raises questions and suspicions from important characters in the early books.

If everybody looks different in the Two Rivers (and everywhere else) then all that is lost. If everybody in the Two Rivers was black lets say, except for this character it would even make more sense than what we got.

It's a minor enough change but it's symptomatic of a series which has tended to favour identity politics over giving a meaningful adaptation of the show. The power level of the women, fully fledged lesbian relationships which are at most hinted at in the books, completely miscasting certain roles (MIN?), the fact that women could be the dragon when it makes absolutely no sense, the fact that female characters are actively taking major plot points from the males who are neutered beyond all recognition - these changes are all likely coming from the same place. It's likely the same place the diversification is coming from.

In terms of your gripe about episode 6 - that complaint is echoed amongst book readers and it is worsened considerably by the fact that they have created new material - meaningless shite which had no business being included. The character of Steppin is not in the books and the focus on the Aes Sedai/Warder nonsense took time away from what actually mattered. So when people say 8 episodes isn't enough time I'm likely to agree - but not when this idiot showrunner keeps introducing his own irrelevant scenes and then has to rush through the stuff of actual consequence.

Flinty997

Just finished it..... I don't get it.

Spoiler Warning

They've pillaged the source material and butchered the story. It now makes no sense and they put it together badly and managed to spend a huge budget on making it look like a late 80s budget TV set.

https://youtu.be/GPFDEGu5g3o

I mean everything she says is true. It's actually harder to get wrong.

She's of the same view as me; they're after creating something with little to no resemblance as the source material and just slapped book terminology over it (badly and out of context).

How a showrunner of niche genre, like this, thinks the show will survive without its core base (which is in the millions) is beyond me.

I've a prime subscription for The Expanse and this, nothing else. That's how much I wanted this to succeed.

Flinty997

Same here my prime sub is solely for the expanse. Once it's up I'll quit. Wheel of time wouldn't persuade me to keep it up, or rejoin.

Slydice

Finished! .. well finished season one. That was a decent adventurey/magickey/explorey show. That's where it did well. It had a "season one finishing" feel to it at the end but that's certainly because there's more to come and I'll give it a go. Definitely had some adult themes and violence so not for the very young.

8: What the hell just happened?!!?

Spoiler Warning

So like.. the dark one is destroyed.. OR IS HE?!?! dun dun dunnnn

We know who the dragon reborn is.. OR DO WE!?!?! dun dun dunnnn (maybe there's five of em?)

Nynaeve was dead.. OR WAS SHE!?!?!? dun dun dunnnn

So I dunno. Let's see..

Spoiler Warning

Everything seemed very streamlined there like it was "All part of the plan" (TM). Especially the way Padan Fain was going on.

It feels like... [some age old battle.. light/dark etc] is done and beginning is [new story with five big characters]

which seems like a fair way to keep the story going and make it bigger now that the introduction to the universe is done.

Then that ending! 😲

Spoiler Warning

What did that poor girl do that they are sending a tidal wave seemingly hurtling towards her and her alone!?!?

all to be revealed in the next season(s) I assume 🙂

Future: Well, yeah, they do adventuring/exploring/magic n stuff pretty good and have plenty of next stories to explore so I'd definitely be thinking I'll give it a go.

I think I've seen that it got good viewership and has lots of book fans so I'd say there's a good change it won't get it's budget cut.

lordgoat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118374537#Comment_118374537

Don't read the books then.

I enjoyed it far more than I thought I would. Liked the first 5-6 books, the next few in the middle until Sanderson takes over are some of the worst books published.

Main gripe with Season 1, not enough Matt. Which was a huge gripe when reading the books.

But with all book adaptations, why do people expect or want them to be the same and not what they are 'adaptations to get as many people to watch this as possible'.

Do people really think if Game of Thrones was chapter by chapter it would have worked? Christ there are character and chapters where nothing relevant happens. Same here. It needs to be condensed and hey if it convinced me to watch it all, it def worked.

Flinty997

If they had made a better story you'd have a point. But they haven't.

They've also added new stuff that's completely redundant, and very badly done. Which kinda the opposite of what you're suggesting.

People mostly aren't complaining that is not the same as the books. (Most haven't read the books). They are complaining it's bad.

I dunno what's so great about matt. He's a pretty miserable character thus far. They've only focused on a very narrow part of that character. There's no balance.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118385275#Comment_118385275

Matt is one of the best characters in the book. The portrayal of him in the show is very different. There was enough boring characters in Rand and Perrin in the books so no need to make Matt the same. Seems to be an attempt to make females more interesting, competent and in charge, which is a bit different from the books.

Black Sheep

Finally watched the last few episodes last night.

After picking up in the mid season I think these really really dipped in quality. A bit of a mess. I wasn't surprised to see the Green Man cut, but as a finale and a 'reveal' of the Dragon it was really disappointing.

In the interests of balance I will say that there were a few visual elements that I did like:-

The way gates (A touch of Stargate about them, but it worked).

Padan Fain is great, I think he's going to work really well. The hunt from book 2 could work well on TV. Would the battle at Falme be the finale? Or would they stretch to accommodate another book on top, maybe we'd get book 3 covered as well.

Shienar's aesthetic as a whole I liked, even if - as is likely to be a continuing pattern in this show - they made sure to suck the stoic heroism out of Easar's character... I'm not sure the showrunners are that comfortable with pretty traditional heroic archetypes, they've either got to be accidental heroes, conflicted anti-heroes etc. The women don't seem to suffer from this, and to a lesser extent Lan.

I also can appreciate the design of the Blight. It's not what I envisaged, but for me it did work. It's been some time since I read the books, but I must admit I visualised the Blight as a kind of blasted post-apocalyptic landscape. There was obviously vegetation, animal-life and water there, but I envisaged pools of rotting, brackish water and the vegetation being twisted, alien-looking stuff hung with rotten fruit (The smell of the Blight is one of the descriptive elements that has stayed with me).

What's the future for this series?

To be honest although Amazon is pushing it reasonably hard on social media I wonder about it's longevity as a show. Not because it is not faithful to the books (Couldn't care less, we're way past that now), but because it is just not good enough in an era where there is so much exceptional TV around.

In season 2 I'm expecting a compression of book 2 and possibly book 3.

One of my favourite parts of the series was Mat's story arc where he rises up. I don't think it's giving much away to say that begins in Tar Valon.

One of the most satisfying episodes with Mat was a gamble he took on the Warder training grounds, I was really hoping to see that on screen, it would have been an excellent action scene and could have been played for some comedy too. In the books it's a scene where we start to see that Mat is not quite the useless layabout that everyone thinks he is, that even aside from his luck, he's got an annoying habit of pulling the fat out of the fire with surprising flare.

That doesn't seem to be Mat's arc though. Instead we're getting "glum unheroic tramp Mat", and I'm not sure I see a turnaround coming soon.

Rafe seems like a nice guy. He has talked in the past about what it was like to grow up gay in Salt Lake City, obviously dominated by Mormon ethical norms. His experience of 'otherness' and being an outsider is apparently what led to him writing the show with what he described as an intellectual message related to gender and diversity. He says he wants the show to start conversations.

I have to admit I throw my hands up when I read that kind of thing. It's not actually because progressive ideas related to sex and race are anathema to me. But when I turn on the TV, incredibly, I am looking to be entertained and I don't particularly want well-meaning dudes like Rafe worrying about needing to act as an educator or social engineer :) Maybe if he worried more about tight writing, plotting and characterisation the season 1 finale would have been hotter than it was.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118385328#Comment_118385328

I mostly agree with that.

The one thing I'll say is that women have strong roles in the books. They may not be the lead character but they are not second class citizens. Large parts of the books are solely about the female characters.

The changes they've made seem mostly pointless as a result. Often they make no sense at all.

Black Sheep

The women absolutely are strong and in charge in the books. That was one thing that never needed updating or retconning!

Nynaeve and Egwene's story arcs are long and detailed enough that they could practically have been stand-alone series themselves, in the work of another fantasy writer. It's just that in the WOT there was also story arcs related to the three male protagonists weaved in alongside.

I've mentioned previously that I like TV Nynaeve. And I do.

But one thing I would say is that actually in a way I think Jordan's Nynaeve in the books is even more of a feminist icon, in the way she was written. Much pricklier, less smiley, entirely focused on the best interests of her people and book Nynaeve didn't let herself acknowledge her attraction to Lan for way way longer. They've completely obliterated the "will they, won't they" / love triangle / unrequited love element. I'm kind of surprised.

Flinty997

What works in GOT is characters are for the most part are all flawed. They have good and bad in them. Made good books and his tv.

That was the tension in the original WOT the characters are often forced to make compromised decisions that have repercussions. So are conflicted as a result. Which you can identify with This is entirely lost in the TV show thus far. No one seems to know what's going on, and thus the decisions they make seem nonsensical and have no context.

Fred Astaire

It's all the more baffling that they have made Egwene the centre of so many arcs - and raised her power level to almost Dragon levels without training - when in the books she has a good arc. They didn't need to give her 20 you-go-gurl moments in Season 1, they didn't need to have her so powerful already because now there is no learning. There can be no growth. There can be no arc now because shes already so powerful. Who in their right mind could train a girl who can already heal without training?

The books already had strong female characters, with good arcs, where the women were independant and powerful - but that's not enough for Rafe, they need to be more powerful, more centric at the expense of the male characters. The females were already so well treated in the books, but somehow that isn't enough for this pretender.

Egwene alone has significant alterations to make her more central and more powerful. They literally turned the show into an Egwene female/feminist power fantasy. -

1. A Dragon candidate against all logic.
2. A Ta'veren when she isn't.
3. Sleeping with Rand - repeatedly. Bizarre change at a time where they should be growing apart. The whole point of that 'romance' is that they were only fated to be together because they were in a small town - once they got out into the world and met other people they realised just how unsuited they were for a romantic relationship. And this happens FAST.
4. Moiraine asks Lan if Logain is as strong as Egwene?!? WHAT? Logain at that point would have been able to slice Egwene into little pieces with a 10th of his power. Ridiculous nonsense.
5. Now at the centre of a love triangle with Rand and Perrin. Absolute vomit. Remember in this version Perrin had a wife just a few weeks ago - which makes that change even more effing bizarre.
6. Can fcuking heal now?!? What?
7. Rand's favourite book which he bonds with Loial about is now Egwenes favourite book? Such a dumb change just because.
8. Egwene stabs Valda instead of Perrin going beserk like he should have done. Can't have a male character looking strong
9. Takes Rand's defining moment along with Nynaeve and a bunch of female extras when she decimates a trolloc army in the 10,000s. Christ, RJ only allowed Rand to kill enough just to turn the tide of battle. But here a fcuking Apprentice and a bunch of wilders can kill 10's of thousands of trollocs? What a ridiculously dumb change.
10. In the ways it's Egwene that realises the trolloc is approaching - not one of the best warriors in the world in Lan. And apparently he doesn't know Moiraine's 'tell' after 20 years - a tell Nynaeve knew after virtually 20 minutes. What a complete joke.
11. Rand's dream where he decides this isn't real because no way would super duper Egwene be a housewife - no she's a strong independant woman. That dream was originally Egwene's from later on with the roles reversed, but Rafe said fcuk that, Rand is a loser now pining after Egwene.

In the books Nynaeve is already powerful but untamed - but she has a significant power check on her in that she can only channel when she is angry. In the show that is gone and now she is able to do things such as fight off Machin Shin? LOL.

I really despised how they sped through Lan and Nynaeve's relationship so fast - where Lans speech was so incredibly unearned. They change the story so much but then throw a couple of lines from important book moments in - which are completely undeserved - and act like they are earned.

Sudden Valley

I think having the original fanbase on side is not always a sign that the show is good so not too concerned about that even though I've read most of the books here.. Like it seems there is still a great hatred for the Witcher TV series online even though the show is quite good and most faithful to the book series. In this case though I don't think the TV or book fans will be happy about the ending of the season. The first half was not too bad but the second half of the season was a bit of a stinker. I think the changes to what was in the books should have come about in the later seasons when the books became long and drawn out. Be interested what they do next season but more like seeing a car crash in slow motion.

Flinty997

If the show is good it doesn't matter if it's faithful to the books or the fans etc. We've had lots of good adaptations GOT, Expanse, LoTR, Hobbit the list is long.

That's not the issue with WOT, the show is poorly written, directed, adapted and produced.

Shows take a season or to to settle down. We'll see what happens.

Black Sheep

Making Egwene and Rand's relationship a sexual one from the get go strikes me as likely just reflective of how the American writers likely understand relationships to be, or at least their belief that if they are to "update" what Jordan wrote then it must be reflective of the culture around them. So Rand and Egwene are suddenly part of a "hook up" culture just because. They'll say it's to better explain character motivations into the future, but then again this is the same line of argument that led to Perrin having a blacksmith wife who was "fridged" early on. As far as the motivation argument goes.... Yeah, sure they couldn't have any kind of emotional bond unless they're having sex, right...? ...Right? Hmmm.

Lan and Nynaeve having their arc compressed into the first season makes less sense to me. Surely even writers with a pygmy emotional intelligence and a limited understanding of a notion like self-denial in favour of duty could appreciate that it might make sense to delay the viewers' gratification by stringing out their relationship for a few seasons. I'm not quite clear on why they've blown their load so early on this.

Fred Astaire

The problem now is that the wheels are already in motion on things that cannot be undone. Existing changes will have huge ripple effects going forward - and that's before we get into whether there will be more changes next season. Which is an almost certain yes by the way, given that Moiraine and Lan will have to be written fresh storylines to keep them with something to do.

Here are some nuggets from a recent interview with this con artist -

I don't even think Rand has the most POV chapters in the books overall.

He does by a huge, huge margin. Like it isn't remotely close. How could you claim to have any knowledge of the books and get this so wrong. Rand = 236. Next 3 highest = 154, 130, 116. He has almost double the wordcount of the next highest character.

With Game of Thrones, the first book is a perfect television season, and then it becomes much more disparate the deeper you go into the books.Whereas Wheel of Time starts out in a way that's hard to make a clean adaptation for TV, but then as you get into the later books, it really is built along a clear, clean TV structure of an ensemble story.

Wheel of Time has 5 Unique POV's in Book 1. By book 13 there are 28 unique POV's. 28. Game of Thrones starts out with 9 POV's and and in the last published book, A Dance with Dragons, there are 18. So Wheel of Time goes from 5 to 28, an increase of 460%. Game of Thrones just doubles theirs. This is such a stupid take it's almost beyond belief - because Wheel of Time becomes way harder to write later on as compared to GOT, unless you are dropping huge numbers of characters.

On Perrin - We needed to be patient with the wolf stuff because as soon as you know what's going on there, then you know he's not the Dragon Reborn and it takes him out of the mystery.

Who would have thought - creating this pointless mystery of who is the Dragon Reborn hinders the actual main characters from having any actual development.

On Mat - I think Mat is the character who most clearly struggles with the darker elements of himself.

I don't think it's possible to have such a fundemental misunderstanding of the character. This is quite literally the antithesis of the character Mat Cauthon.

Black Sheep

I agree on with the comment above on Mat, it's interesting how wrong Rafe is here. Did he actually read the series or is he getting this second-hand? Mat's largely at peace with himself throughout the books. Mat's problems are external for the most part. It's Rand and Perrin who are in crisis much more often, struggling with the morality of what they must do as leaders.

I was just reading something that suggests the WOT got enough views that it's safe enough from cancellation for the forseeable future, in fact they now have to manage this in tandem with releasing their LOTR adaption in order that they get he most out of both.

If you think people are 'angry' about the WOT adaption all I'll say is just wait till they see what a modernisation of Middle Earth looks like :)

So this is where Morainne's crap about Mat having the dark within him comes from. Rafe's head and nowhere else.

Mat is the ultimate reluctant good guy. He whines and complains, even thinks about not doing the good deed but everyone around him (and the reader) never doubts what he'll do.

Another total misread/wholesale-change from the showrunners.

Why, again, not just make a new IP?

Flinty997

Feels like Rand has a lot less screen time than this would suggest.

https://youtu.be/rQacC0WH5uc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118386532#Comment_118386532

He has screen time, he just does nothing or his actions are based around what Egwene wants/needs