Toyota panics .. asks BYD to help make EVs for them

celtic_oz · 05-12-2021 5:11pm #1

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/05/toyota-turns-to-chinese-technology-to-get-evs-to-market/?_guc_consent_skip=1638720366

Toyota executives started to worry back in 2015 when BYD launched its Tang plug-in hybrid, with significant improvements in styling, quality and performance. Most worrying was that fact it was still about 30% cheaper than comparable Toyota models. There was a critical turn of events in 2017 when Toyota's top engineering leaders, including then-executive vice president Shigeki Terashi, drove several BYD cars such as the Tang at its proving ground in Toyota City near its headquarters in Japan. Terashi subsequently visited BYD's headquarters in Shenzhen and drove a prototype of its Han electric car. "Their long-term quality is still a question mark, but the design and quality of these cars showed levels of maturity, yet they were much cheaper than comparable Toyota models," said one of the four sources, who participated in the test drives.

"We were all kinda floored by that."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF9s5CxtCJg

80sDiesel · 05-12-2021 6:57pm

I checked out that Viking channel and he is awful.

unkel · 06-12-2021 1:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118273100#Comment_118273100

Maybe so. But he's on the ball and he doesn't pull any punches. Getting BYD to build electric cars for them sticking a Toyota badge on them might be the only thing that keeps Toyota from going under in the next decade or two. Mind, it's just delaying the inevitable. Toyota fanbois will riposte that they will be first with commercial solid state batteries of course. I'll believe that when I see it 😂

Disclosure: I went long on BYD last week.

06-12-2021 1:23pm

While I could be convinced to drive a ByD car like the the Dolphin, Tang or Seagull I will not invest in Chinese companies. Once the car is in my possession I can derive benefit from it without fear of losing it.

ELM327 · 06-12-2021 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118277015#Comment_118277015

I agree. They do not have a democratic society, too easy for the government to close down anything they dont like or for money to go "missing"

Lantus · 07-12-2021 9:29am

Toyotas big selling point is reliability of it's ice engines. It won't have that advantage in an ev.

Its a very real look at how far behind legacy car makers are compared to Tesla and china. Toyota have accepted defeat already. They have seen third gen byd cars already transitioning into fourth gen highly developed cars in highly efficient factories running at a profit and realized way too late they are way behind the curve.

Bizzarley it looks like vw are about to get rid of their pro ev CEO and replace him with someone more favourable to keeping ice engines and keeping related jobs. Come on vw, don't be silly! You are barely in front of Toyota and you want to ease off!? Nuts.

unkel · 07-12-2021 9:42am

"Toyotas big selling point is reliability of it's ice engines"

"Toyota have accepted defeat already"

Interestingly, Toyota had accepted defeat in terms of diesel engines a good 20 years ago, stopped developing them and just started buying them in from third parties (like BMW)

Agree 100% with all your points. I really hope that Diess will stay at VAG, he is pretty much their only hope and he has done immense good to the company already in terms of their chance to survive and thrive in this brave new world of zero emission vehicles...

Blue4u · 07-12-2021 10:15am

Car manufacturers are not behind Tesla. I thought most people had got over that but seemingly it is still around.

Toyota is still the top car manufacturer in the World and thats after dumping diesel years ago when every other car manufacturer was desperately trying to fill their fleet with diesel models.

VW are second.

Tesla have been talking about electric cars for how long but if I look on an Irish road now what do I see? electric VW and lots of them. Yes the odd Tesla is knocking around but at this stage it has to be at least 3-1 in favour of VW who only really bothered in the last two years.

People are still buying combustions engines all over the World, people are still buying hybrids by the bucket load all over the World. No idea why anyone thinks at this stage that big car manufacturers are suddenly going to dead in the next year few years, that was floating around when the "famous" 35k Model 3 was supposed to arrive, still waiting on that one.

Electric cars are still a small market, a growing market but still small in terms of the World. Until you have a full range from a cheap to a premium electric car it won't change. The cheapest electric car at the moment is what? 30-40k? while you can pikc up a brand new combustion engine car for what/ less than 10k.

Toyota have accepted defeat already 😂

zilog_jones · 07-12-2021 10:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282216#Comment_118282216

They've been making hybrids for over 20 years and the whole hybrid powertrain and batteries have been reliable, not just the ICE. They shouldn't have any trouble making much simpler BEV powertrains reliable, they just need to get their arse in gear and get the costs down.

Lantus · 07-12-2021 10:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282498#Comment_118282498

Their hybrids are ice cars with an additional component made with traditional car building factories and workforces and associated suppliers.

A modern ev from the ground up is a different animal and Tesla and the Chinese use fit for purpose factory's with smaller workforces and can make cars faster at a greater profit and implement changes quicker. They are 3 generations ahead in development with no signs of slowing. Vw boss Zeiss has been trying to get his firm to switch and the legacy maker is kicking back. They don't like change. None of them do. They have been class leaders for decades and don't want it to end. I don't blame them but the market will decide for them sooner rather than later.

If it's so easy for Toyota to make an ev then why cosy up to byd? Because new factory's and processes to develop an ev take years and hundreds of millions before you see a profit. The late starters will be doing this as their ice car sales fall steadily in the next 10 years towards zero. It will be too late then.

Blue4u · 07-12-2021 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282498#Comment_118282498

Why do they need to "get their arse in gear"? the electric car market is still tiny and they are selling hybrid by the bucket load. They have a PHEV out now and just announced an electric car to come out soon. VW had to come out quicker because their entire fleet was based on diesel which was problematic to say the least, Toyota can point to them getting rid of diesel long before others.

BYD are down 29% in first half of this year and if Toyota really wanted they could just buy them out.

unkel · 07-12-2021 11:13am

The electric car market is only tiny in backwards countries. In Norway, over 80% of all new passenger vehicles sold are now fully battery electric. Will be the same in many other countries within the next 5-10 years. ICE is dead, it's just a matter of time. How quickly the incumbent ICE manufacturers can switch over to EVs will determine if they survive or not

Fingleberries · 07-12-2021 11:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282655#Comment_118282655

The main move behind the BYD cosy-up is that they needed an affordable BEV. The bzx4 is likely going to be pricey (High-end Rav4 territory), as the PHEV RAV4 starts at around €50k. Even with grants, this is beyond the normal reach of someone who might be interested in BEV as a family runaround or a simple city car, etc.

In the UK recently the Model 3 was the best selling car, not just electric car, for a few months. Toyota (and other manufacturers) need to have an affordable BEV to get market share and mind share (even in the relatively small BEV market) back from incumbents like Tesla, BYD, etc. This is a stop-gap measure to recover from the focus on Hydrogen or until they get their own processes in train and can then steamroller the market with their scale and production capacity.

VW are doing a great job at trying to be relevant, if the number of id.3 and id.4 cars around the place are anything to go by. They would be crazy to ditch Diess, just because he's told some home truths and is a Musk fanboy. But, vested interests in the older markets and manufacturing, are at play against him.

Blue4u · 07-12-2021 11:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282831#Comment_118282831

I think people are really overplaying the significance of Tesla. Outside a specific market nobody really cares about Tesla. Plus that is the market that all the other manufacturers are moving into first. Do you honestly think a Toyota RAV owner is going to swap to a Tesla or to a new PHEV/Electric RAV?

Tesla are selling cars while everyone else is buying SUV/Crossovers. If you look at the Tesla Crossover, with the funky doors, how much success has that had in replace X5's etc? I actually see more Audi eTrons

The small car market is awash with cheap combustion engine cars and any electric car released will have limited range plus is going into a market which people don't want to mess around with plugs etc. So the hybrid small toyota is in an ideal position against other straight electric, plus they are really economical.

Padre_Pio · 07-12-2021 12:24pm

Toyota, VAG, Mercedes, companies that have invested billions over the past 60-70 years in ICE technology. Honestly, it will come down to how ruthless they are in pivoting entire factories, supply chains, R&D departments, etc to electric.

You might have hundreds of engineers each with decades of experience who are suddenly obsolete because ICEs have gone from hero to zero in the space of five years.

unkel · 07-12-2021 12:39pm

Agree with your point Padre_Pio, but the development of diesel cheating software about 10 years ago proves EVERYBODY in the industry knew full well that diesel (ICE) was a dead duck at that stage. The only reason ICE still sells is that most manufacturers are fighting tooth and nail to sell as many ICE as they possibly can, before they are banned from doing so.

07-12-2021 12:46pm

ICE sells because they have got established production facilities and R&D costs on engines sunk. each additional ICE unit produced has a small marginal cost.

They're not developing any more new ICE engines and just investing minimally to refine the existing engines they have until 2030 to 2035 when they transition over to EV. Those dates weren't decided without tacit agreement of the big European Manufacturers. The current small capacity turbo'd petrol engines of the European manufacturers will be the foundation of their product offerings until they transition over to EV.

magicbastarder · 07-12-2021 12:49pm

why are toyota so far behind on battery technology, when they were the first major manufacturer to have success with hybrid technology? you'd have thought that would give them an advantage in motor and battery technology, but did they just stagnate there and not countenance the next leap?

unkel · 07-12-2021 1:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283412#Comment_118283412

Because they gambled big style on hydrogen cars. Still do even though most other manufacturers have come to see this as a ludicrous solution for small vehicles over the last 10 years or so.

Blue4u · 07-12-2021 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283230#Comment_118283230

They just need to change one factory, then maybe two. VW already did it and can show the blueprint. It's not like they haven't done this many times before . In reality a swap to electric is easier as less moving part etc and the process should reduce labour. Supply chain/R&D why do they need to pivot? it will be the same suppliers to the main manufacturers and they will be using the same supply chain. R&D will be the same just with an electric version the same as the combustion versions

Not sure why you think those engineers are obsolete? 10-20 years combustion engine will continue to be sold. They are just the engine engineers and the rest will continue to work as is on electric cars. Combustion cars will continue to have developments made on them along with electric cars, maybe in 10 years they might stop and at that stage either the engineer will have retired or will have transferred to electric.

People are over estimating what electric cars mean because Tesla made such a big deal out of it. Tesla problem is they had nothing set up to start with including an experienced manufacturing division. Something the main manufacturers already have.

Blue4u · 07-12-2021 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283389#Comment_118283389

VW just released a whole load of new combustion engines last year. All engines can be classed as a refinement of the previous versions. Other manufacturers will do the same and continue to develop newer engines.

Padre_Pio · 07-12-2021 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283886#Comment_118283886

Changing a factory cost billions of dollars and can take years.

Reducing labour and rejigging lines also cost billions of dollars.

Suppliers definitely won't all be the same.

Engineers can't just change disciplines overnight or even over months or years. There's a global shortage of electrical and software engineers.

mfceiling · 07-12-2021 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282990#Comment_118282990

But Tesla are the pioneers of electric cars. Very good efficiency from the batteries, good technology, supercharger network and "the cool factor".

Tesla also have a subscription policy in place. You want the full maps and Spotify and you pay for it....every month. That's a lot of money coming in. Add in the cost of supercharging and that's another guaranteed revenue stream. So when you buy a tesla the company still gets money from you.

07-12-2021 2:06pm

No. Their line up is based around the EA211 and developments on that along with the MQB platform and to a certain extent MLB.

The profits are coming from EA211 on MQB until the end of the decade.

Blue4u · 07-12-2021 2:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283935#Comment_118283935

"the cool factor" for a small minority.

I dont think Tesla are the pioneers, electric cars have been around for years and multiple manufacturers have made them just never pushed them out to market

To update, not the most efficient based on the below. The network is not complete and the technology is seemingly good? but the build quality and TCO outside warranty is terrible.

https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/economical-cars/1548/most-economical-electric-cars

Fingleberries · 07-12-2021 3:16pm

In the same way that Apple didn't invent the digital music player or touchscreen device, Tesla didn't invent the electric car.

They both, however, brought product to bear that caught with the public because of ease of use, a certain flair and joined up thinking (e.g. Things like: If lack of charging options holds back EV sales, let's use a percentage of the sales in a region to finance chargers in that region - making it easier for owners and easier for sales)

Often, among the public, the word Tesla has become synonymous with referring to electric cars - like iPod was for MP3 players.

Because Tesla could start form the ground up as an electric only car manufacturer they didn't have the baggage of the common makers (Toyota, Nissan, VW, etc) but it cost them a load of cash to get to where they are today.

Legacy manufacturers have the finances to do something similar, but don't want to kill their cash cow (ICE) to get there its a slow transition and first mover in the mass market has been ceded to others.

Nissan has had the Leaf for 10+ years, Toyota have almost 20 years of hybrid tech. What did either do with it?

Tesla has only a tiny fraction of the global car market, but it has been enough to wake some sleeping giants. It will likely never kill them, and I'm not sure it wants to, but at least it seems prompted a response.

Blue4u · 07-12-2021 3:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283917#Comment_118283917

As I said VW already have the blue print, they done it initially on a small factory with the eGolf to reduce costs when they done a bigger factory.

You seem to be jumping around topics, first you mention combustion engine engineers which as i said will need to re-skill but they are still 10 year probably off that.

Now you seem to be talking about electrical and software engineers which are different, an electrical and software engineer will work on cars even if the fuel is petrol/diesel/hydrogen/electric. Plus you will find the big manufacturers are already working with specialist companies in the area of software development like autonomous driving. One of the biggest which is based out of Ireland.

Suppliers in the majority will be the same, the likes of Bosch have already started to buy out companies who provide electric car components so if they dont have in house they are big enough to buy them. Even the magical tesla buy from ....... Bosch

Blue4u · 07-12-2021 3:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284565#Comment_118284565

Tesla haven't sold anywhere near the amount of devices that Apple did and have not shacked up the market like Apple did. Companies crumbled overnight with the iPod/iPhone and went bust. Sorry but that never has or will happen with Tesla.

Just look at Tesla charging in Ireland, it is minimal and scare, even in the US you see queues around the block to charge points. I own an electric car but I know the benefits of it and the disadvantages. The major been public charging which in every country in the World is a huge stumbling block which once you go past the hype Tesla have not resolved.

JohnC. · 07-12-2021 3:57pm

It's no good saying BEVs are a small percentage (which is debatable in itself now) so there's no rush. It's no use waiting until BEVs are a bigger deal to start getting serious. Wait that long, and they'll find others have eaten their lunch.

.42. · 07-12-2021 4:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282399#Comment_118282399

Not sure where you are living but their are more Tesla Model 3s in my estate then any other brand of electric vehicles.

Blue4u · 07-12-2021 4:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285018#Comment_118285018

The market says different

https://www.electricireland.ie/news/article/electric-vehicle-sales-double-in-ireland-in-first-half-of-year

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284938#Comment_118284938

See link above, 4%. Toyota which this thread is about are going to release an electric car which will coincide with a lot of people on PCP on RAV4, it was released in 2018 if I remember but you couldnt get one till 2019 when they shipped in major quantities. 3 year PCP will mean they are up next year

07-12-2021 4:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284182#Comment_118284182

The link you posted pretty much suggest that Tesla indeed is efficient. The Fiat 500e, a sub-supermini, with large battery (29 kWh) and power (118hp) upgrades has the same efficiency than the car from Tesla chosen on the list, i.e. Model 3 LR with 440 hp sized about three classes up from Fiat. The standard RWD TM3 has better efficiency than the LR pretty much exactly the same as the classic Hyundai Ioniq on the 2nd place. I suggest you should go to test drive a Fiat 500e and after that a Tesla Model 3 and see which car is more energy efficient for space and performance it provides.

Which companies before Tesla introduced Model S back in 2012 in your opinion are more ground breaking in terms of the holy trinity of functionality/performance/range? I can only think of a handful of EVs that even existed before that: The Baker electric etc. in early 20th century, then some 70's stuff all of which were based on lead acid and sold in miniscule numbers. The 1st somewhat exciting BEV was the GM EV1 but even those had lead-acid to start with, were two seaters and more crucially you couldn't actually buy them as the cost per unit would have been absolutely ridiculous. After that a long break with just California specials made in small numbers to bend the ZEV rules (Toyota RAV EV etc.) until Tesla got the Roadster in market. This was then followed by Mitsubishi triplets ca. 2010 followed this time with Li-Ion and shortly after that by the 1st gen LEAF which actually was a very groundbreaking vehicle from a volume maker but just too short a range and also it so happens self destructing battery chemistry.

And then bang, suddenly a groundbreaking Model S in 2012. It was just a quantum leap over the previous model from them. And it actually was really sold to people and wasn't just vapourware. And it was suddenly pretty much everything to everybody if you could afford to buy that is.

Blue4u · 07-12-2021 4:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285109#Comment_118285109

They released the model S in 2012 and have sold how many Worldwide? a total of 250k I found on google since launch. In comparison the ID.3 sold 814k up till Dec 2020.

As per efficiency they are not market leaders and everyone is fairly similar. Hardly something to brag about if you are in the middle of the pack. Even the VW eGolf which was just a Golf with an electric engine slapped into it was fairly efficient. The list doesn't have the Niro far off it which is again a combustion car with an electric motor slapped into it

The Leaf was more of a ground breaking car the problem was it was horrible to look at. If they used the current design of the Leaf Gen 2 on the Gen 1 it would have sold a lot more. The battery issue is exaggerated with many Gen 1 still on the road and very few issues. Bigger issue was the reliability of the Tesla range with parts of them scattered all over Motorways :-)

mfceiling · 07-12-2021 6:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284823#Comment_118284823

If you think the Tesla charging network in Ireland is minimal and scarce then you don't want to see what the ESB are providing.

Guess who has the most amount of reliable, high speed superchargers in Ireland? It's not the ESB.

Tesla have a very good charging network. They are nicely spread (more coming on line in the next few months). They are fast. They are reliable. They are so easy to use (no messing around with apps, cards, contactless payments). Plug in...done.

If you buy any other manufacturers EV in Ireland you are relying on Ionity for fast charging because the ESB fast chargers are scarce and almost always in use.

Blue4u · 07-12-2021 7:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285641#Comment_118285641

Looking at the map from Tesla it is tiny with what 5-6 super chargers outside of Dublin with entire section of Ireland(Cavan, Leitrim, Sligo, Meath etc) not covered at all. Unless I am missing something og course but I am looking at the below.

Sorry but to me that is not "a very good charging network". For all the shouting Tesla do about it I would class that as awful. No idea if ESB or Ionity are better as I don't use the public system at all.

mfceiling · 07-12-2021 7:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286022#Comment_118286022

Not being smart but if you don't know what the ESB or Ionity's network is like then you haven't much of an idea about Tesla's network either.

Tesla's chargers are fast....very fast. They are placed strategically to allow you to cover large distances. I can travel from my house in Dublin to inch beach in Kerry without stopping in my own Tesla. However that journey is too long to drive non stop. I stop in Birdhill, at around 40 - 50% battery. Plug in, use the bathroom, get a coffee and let the dog out for the toilet. After around 20 minutes I'm back at 90% or around 400kms.

Tesla are actively seeking more sites in Ireland. They are the best, most reliable private network in Ireland. Way better than anything offered by what the ESB offer.

unkel · 07-12-2021 10:06pm

And you forgot to mention that most Tesla Supercharger sites even in this country have 8 stalls. So 8 cars can charge at the same time. Most of the ESB ones only 1 car can charge. At pathetic speeds. And of course the reliability, the Tesla Superchargers just work. Same can not be said for the ESB chargers or even the Ionity chargers

And that is just Ireland, have a look at the USA or continental Europe. You could drive from the arctic circle in Norway to the south west coast of Portugal in any Tesla without even needing any card, app or fob, without even having to plan your journey. The car will tell you along the way where to charge and for how long. Arrive at the charger, stick the cable into your car and relax - the car is charging

Blue4u · 07-12-2021 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286124#Comment_118286124

I showed you the map with the point so what exactly do I not know about it? You just picked a journey which is covered by a fast charger. Travel from Dublin to Donegal town/Letterkenny/Westport/sligo and what happens then?

I don't see Ionity and ESB shouting about the charging network like Tesla. If you think that is a "very good network" then I would hate to see what you think is a poor network.

P.S. I didn't want to go down the Ionity/ESB so hence why I didn't discuss. The thread is not about Tesla by the way so I will stop now.

unkel · 07-12-2021 11:35pm

My EV which is over 7 years old can go from Dublin to any of those towns at the speed limits without charging. Most reasonably priced new EVs currently on sale can do same. But like you say, we are way off topic here. You said Tesla is nothing special, then others pointed out where Tesla is indeed special, this includes the SuC network. But let's move back to Toyota. Needing Chinese company BYD to build their EVs for them.

Blue4u · 08-12-2021 11:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287674#Comment_118287674

From what I can see Toyota are not getting BYD to build their EV's, they are taking some technology form them to put into the car but that has been done for years, BMW diesels engine into the Toyota etc. This has always happened, didn't Tesla & Merc have some sort of agreement at one stage?

Only EV fans get all excited about this, probably because most get all out of sorts with the "self charging" advertisement campaign Toyota uses. The car also according to the article will be for China only, VW etc are all doing the same with China only cars because the regulations are a lot lower, makes sense to get a company to help them.

unkel · 08-12-2021 11:37am

Fair point, I didn't spot that the car will be for China only. In that case there is nothing new in this article, I'm pretty sure that was announced a few years ago.

cnocbui · 08-12-2021 12:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282650#Comment_118282650

An EV is not a different animal from the production side of things. That is a huge mistake Musk made with his clueless belief he could get robots to build cars instead of using people.

Doesn't look like the price drop in batteries is happening, so a significant drop in prices looks like it will be delayed, which is of course necessary to make them cheap enough to force down the throats of people on more modest incomes. If the delay in battery price reduction persists, a lot of governments are going to have to revise their foi-gras forced feeding scheme for EV's and ICE ban deadlines.

JPup · 08-12-2021 12:11pm

I don't think this is too significant. It's just a way to get EVs into the Chinese market quickly to meet government requirements as far as I know.

The big test for Toyota comes around 2025 when they are betting that solid state batteries take over and they are aiming to be a leader in that market. They've taken a view that conventional hybrids will largely tide them over until then (although they are bringing out several current gen technology EVs in the meantime). Time will tell if that proves to be a smart strategy or not!

celtic_oz · 08-12-2021 2:46pm

I wouldn't rule out Toyota selling this in other markets if they can't stand up something of their own quickly in that segment

https://www.gizmochina.com/2021/12/05/toyota-partners-chinas-byd-build-30000-electric-car-launching-2022/

BYD is a fast-rising tech provider in the EV industry and its proprietary blade battery cells technology is attracting attention from the big hitters in the industry. The new Toyota-BYD electric car is rumored to be slightly bigger than the Toyota Corolla. There are still some key details that are still not available for the new Toyota electric car. It is unclear whether Toyota hopes to expand the availability of the car beyond China.

08-12-2021 3:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285246#Comment_118285246

So you say that 250k cars sold was low. How many EVs did VW sold before ID.* was released? For a small manufacturer Tesla have been well able to churn out large numbers of the Model 3 since 2017 although are still suffering from insufficient manufacturing capacity as of Dec 2021. 2012 was well before sales gained traction and we have Tesla to thank for making BEV competitive compared to the alternatives. Knowing that it was from a maker that was just learning to build cars and had to design pretty much everything inhouse, the Model S was an impressive feat. The unlimited mileage warranty for 8 years for the drivetrain was genius as it allowed them to take risks and shortcuts at the beginning and then repair everything under warranty when they gained more expertise in building their components.

As of the LEAF 2010-early 2013 the batteries really are poor compared to any other BEV out there apart from the lead-acid cars. I can't at least think of any other car that has such badly degrading battery cells regardless of how the car has been used or abused. If the car had had more range it would have masked the degradation but without exaggeration the range of a few year old early LEAF was pretty much useless for any main car duties. The 2013 and up was almost faultless though so Nissan did learn their lesson. I do prefer the styling of the mk1 LEAF over the current version as it was actually distinctive and designed with function over form. But it was a bad call from Nissan to try to market it to the Corolla loving masses who were not ready to drive something that doesn't blend in and shows character. The L24 was a very good and complete first try especially from a usually conservative mass manufacturer that has pretty cool tech for a 2010 mass market non-premium model. Just the original LMO battery was a comparative disaster.

All of the above examples of efficient cars you list suffer from high power consumption at high speeds due to the compromises the manufacturers had to take to make the conversions to happen. But in case of Niro/Kona and eGolf the cars were actually designed at the time from ground up to be able to accept EV components or ICE/hybrid drivetrain. But design compromises in packaging compared to every tesla model out there apart from the original Roadster had to be done. The same is true with LEAF which again was heavily based on an ICE platform and assembly lines.

Anyway, all of the above is ot in this thread. Sorry.

Blue4u · 08-12-2021 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290740#Comment_118290740

It's too easy to set off the Tesla fan club. None of the above is correct but as OT will leave it, in terms of VW as you ask see below.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1262594/volkswagen-group-global-electric-vehicle-sales/

08-12-2021 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290936#Comment_118290936

You're right about the Tesla fan club. Have covered over 20k in less than 6 months on the TM3 before 2 x LEAFs. It's an amazing car.

Sorry, can't check the article as it's behind a paywall and/or registration. But I suspect that the numbers for eGolf and eUP are probably quite small from a large manufacturer. And they couldn't have bothered with the ID.* without the Tesla effect.

Blue4u · 08-12-2021 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290968#Comment_118290968

Yes very small, 250k 😂

mfceiling · 08-12-2021 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291941#Comment_118291941

Do you own an EV blue? You have some hatred for Tesla by your posts on here.

Blue4u · 08-12-2021 10:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118292321#Comment_118292321

I don't hate Tesla, just pointing out the flaws in them. People raving about a charging network which doesn't cover half the country. That's without even discussing how poorly built they are.

I do own a BEV, owned multiple so I am well aware of the disadvantages of all of them and the advantages. It seems pointing out the flaws is not the way around here.

Would I buy a Tesla? not at the moment because it will takes ages to get delivered and then could be built terrible. Will I in the future, if they resolve the issues then of course

mfceiling · 09-12-2021 12:13am

The old "they're built terrible chestnut".

Look at Richard Symons channel on YouTube and see what he thinks of the build quality. He's an EV specialist and is as fair and honest as they come.

It's old hat at this stage.

The charging network while not brilliant is way better than any other provider out there.

What model of BEV do you have? Curious to know as you previously claimed you knew nothing of the ESB network or Ionity.

Toyota panics .. asks BYD to help make EVs for them

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