Toyota panics .. asks BYD to help make EVs for them

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284182#Comment_118284182

The link you posted pretty much suggest that Tesla indeed is efficient. The Fiat 500e, a sub-supermini, with large battery (29 kWh) and power (118hp) upgrades has the same efficiency than the car from Tesla chosen on the list, i.e. Model 3 LR with 440 hp sized about three classes up from Fiat. The standard RWD TM3 has better efficiency than the LR pretty much exactly the same as the classic Hyundai Ioniq on the 2nd place. I suggest you should go to test drive a Fiat 500e and after that a Tesla Model 3 and see which car is more energy efficient for space and performance it provides.

Which companies before Tesla introduced Model S back in 2012 in your opinion are more ground breaking in terms of the holy trinity of functionality/performance/range? I can only think of a handful of EVs that even existed before that: The Baker electric etc. in early 20th century, then some 70's stuff all of which were based on lead acid and sold in miniscule numbers. The 1st somewhat exciting BEV was the GM EV1 but even those had lead-acid to start with, were two seaters and more crucially you couldn't actually buy them as the cost per unit would have been absolutely ridiculous. After that a long break with just California specials made in small numbers to bend the ZEV rules (Toyota RAV EV etc.) until Tesla got the Roadster in market. This was then followed by Mitsubishi triplets ca. 2010 followed this time with Li-Ion and shortly after that by the 1st gen LEAF which actually was a very groundbreaking vehicle from a volume maker but just too short a range and also it so happens self destructing battery chemistry.

And then bang, suddenly a groundbreaking Model S in 2012. It was just a quantum leap over the previous model from them. And it actually was really sold to people and wasn't just vapourware. And it was suddenly pretty much everything to everybody if you could afford to buy that is.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285109#Comment_118285109

They released the model S in 2012 and have sold how many Worldwide? a total of 250k I found on google since launch. In comparison the ID.3 sold 814k up till Dec 2020.

As per efficiency they are not market leaders and everyone is fairly similar. Hardly something to brag about if you are in the middle of the pack. Even the VW eGolf which was just a Golf with an electric engine slapped into it was fairly efficient. The list doesn't have the Niro far off it which is again a combustion car with an electric motor slapped into it

The Leaf was more of a ground breaking car the problem was it was horrible to look at. If they used the current design of the Leaf Gen 2 on the Gen 1 it would have sold a lot more. The battery issue is exaggerated with many Gen 1 still on the road and very few issues. Bigger issue was the reliability of the Tesla range with parts of them scattered all over Motorways :-)

mfceiling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284823#Comment_118284823

If you think the Tesla charging network in Ireland is minimal and scarce then you don't want to see what the ESB are providing.

Guess who has the most amount of reliable, high speed superchargers in Ireland? It's not the ESB.

Tesla have a very good charging network. They are nicely spread (more coming on line in the next few months). They are fast. They are reliable. They are so easy to use (no messing around with apps, cards, contactless payments). Plug in...done.

If you buy any other manufacturers EV in Ireland you are relying on Ionity for fast charging because the ESB fast chargers are scarce and almost always in use.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285641#Comment_118285641

Looking at the map from Tesla it is tiny with what 5-6 super chargers outside of Dublin with entire section of Ireland(Cavan, Leitrim, Sligo, Meath etc) not covered at all. Unless I am missing something og course but I am looking at the below.

Sorry but to me that is not "a very good charging network". For all the shouting Tesla do about it I would class that as awful. No idea if ESB or Ionity are better as I don't use the public system at all.

mfceiling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286022#Comment_118286022

Not being smart but if you don't know what the ESB or Ionity's network is like then you haven't much of an idea about Tesla's network either.

Tesla's chargers are fast....very fast. They are placed strategically to allow you to cover large distances. I can travel from my house in Dublin to inch beach in Kerry without stopping in my own Tesla. However that journey is too long to drive non stop. I stop in Birdhill, at around 40 - 50% battery. Plug in, use the bathroom, get a coffee and let the dog out for the toilet. After around 20 minutes I'm back at 90% or around 400kms.

Tesla are actively seeking more sites in Ireland. They are the best, most reliable private network in Ireland. Way better than anything offered by what the ESB offer.

unkel

And you forgot to mention that most Tesla Supercharger sites even in this country have 8 stalls. So 8 cars can charge at the same time. Most of the ESB ones only 1 car can charge. At pathetic speeds. And of course the reliability, the Tesla Superchargers just work. Same can not be said for the ESB chargers or even the Ionity chargers

And that is just Ireland, have a look at the USA or continental Europe. You could drive from the arctic circle in Norway to the south west coast of Portugal in any Tesla without even needing any card, app or fob, without even having to plan your journey. The car will tell you along the way where to charge and for how long. Arrive at the charger, stick the cable into your car and relax - the car is charging

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286124#Comment_118286124

I showed you the map with the point so what exactly do I not know about it? You just picked a journey which is covered by a fast charger. Travel from Dublin to Donegal town/Letterkenny/Westport/sligo and what happens then?

I don't see Ionity and ESB shouting about the charging network like Tesla. If you think that is a "very good network" then I would hate to see what you think is a poor network.

P.S. I didn't want to go down the Ionity/ESB so hence why I didn't discuss. The thread is not about Tesla by the way so I will stop now.

unkel

My EV which is over 7 years old can go from Dublin to any of those towns at the speed limits without charging. Most reasonably priced new EVs currently on sale can do same. But like you say, we are way off topic here. You said Tesla is nothing special, then others pointed out where Tesla is indeed special, this includes the SuC network. But let's move back to Toyota. Needing Chinese company BYD to build their EVs for them.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287674#Comment_118287674

From what I can see Toyota are not getting BYD to build their EV's, they are taking some technology form them to put into the car but that has been done for years, BMW diesels engine into the Toyota etc. This has always happened, didn't Tesla & Merc have some sort of agreement at one stage?

Only EV fans get all excited about this, probably because most get all out of sorts with the "self charging" advertisement campaign Toyota uses. The car also according to the article will be for China only, VW etc are all doing the same with China only cars because the regulations are a lot lower, makes sense to get a company to help them.

unkel

Fair point, I didn't spot that the car will be for China only. In that case there is nothing new in this article, I'm pretty sure that was announced a few years ago.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282650#Comment_118282650

An EV is not a different animal from the production side of things. That is a huge mistake Musk made with his clueless belief he could get robots to build cars instead of using people.

Doesn't look like the price drop in batteries is happening, so a significant drop in prices looks like it will be delayed, which is of course necessary to make them cheap enough to force down the throats of people on more modest incomes. If the delay in battery price reduction persists, a lot of governments are going to have to revise their foi-gras forced feeding scheme for EV's and ICE ban deadlines.

JPup

I don't think this is too significant. It's just a way to get EVs into the Chinese market quickly to meet government requirements as far as I know.

The big test for Toyota comes around 2025 when they are betting that solid state batteries take over and they are aiming to be a leader in that market. They've taken a view that conventional hybrids will largely tide them over until then (although they are bringing out several current gen technology EVs in the meantime). Time will tell if that proves to be a smart strategy or not!

celtic_oz

I wouldn't rule out Toyota selling this in other markets if they can't stand up something of their own quickly in that segment

https://www.gizmochina.com/2021/12/05/toyota-partners-chinas-byd-build-30000-electric-car-launching-2022/

BYD is a fast-rising tech provider in the EV industry and its proprietary blade battery cells technology is attracting attention from the big hitters in the industry. The new Toyota-BYD electric car is rumored to be slightly bigger than the Toyota Corolla. There are still some key details that are still not available for the new Toyota electric car. It is unclear whether Toyota hopes to expand the availability of the car beyond China.

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285246#Comment_118285246

So you say that 250k cars sold was low. How many EVs did VW sold before ID.* was released? For a small manufacturer Tesla have been well able to churn out large numbers of the Model 3 since 2017 although are still suffering from insufficient manufacturing capacity as of Dec 2021. 2012 was well before sales gained traction and we have Tesla to thank for making BEV competitive compared to the alternatives. Knowing that it was from a maker that was just learning to build cars and had to design pretty much everything inhouse, the Model S was an impressive feat. The unlimited mileage warranty for 8 years for the drivetrain was genius as it allowed them to take risks and shortcuts at the beginning and then repair everything under warranty when they gained more expertise in building their components.

As of the LEAF 2010-early 2013 the batteries really are poor compared to any other BEV out there apart from the lead-acid cars. I can't at least think of any other car that has such badly degrading battery cells regardless of how the car has been used or abused. If the car had had more range it would have masked the degradation but without exaggeration the range of a few year old early LEAF was pretty much useless for any main car duties. The 2013 and up was almost faultless though so Nissan did learn their lesson. I do prefer the styling of the mk1 LEAF over the current version as it was actually distinctive and designed with function over form. But it was a bad call from Nissan to try to market it to the Corolla loving masses who were not ready to drive something that doesn't blend in and shows character. The L24 was a very good and complete first try especially from a usually conservative mass manufacturer that has pretty cool tech for a 2010 mass market non-premium model. Just the original LMO battery was a comparative disaster.

All of the above examples of efficient cars you list suffer from high power consumption at high speeds due to the compromises the manufacturers had to take to make the conversions to happen. But in case of Niro/Kona and eGolf the cars were actually designed at the time from ground up to be able to accept EV components or ICE/hybrid drivetrain. But design compromises in packaging compared to every tesla model out there apart from the original Roadster had to be done. The same is true with LEAF which again was heavily based on an ICE platform and assembly lines.

Anyway, all of the above is ot in this thread. Sorry.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290740#Comment_118290740

It's too easy to set off the Tesla fan club. None of the above is correct but as OT will leave it, in terms of VW as you ask see below.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1262594/volkswagen-group-global-electric-vehicle-sales/

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290936#Comment_118290936

You're right about the Tesla fan club. Have covered over 20k in less than 6 months on the TM3 before 2 x LEAFs. It's an amazing car.

Sorry, can't check the article as it's behind a paywall and/or registration. But I suspect that the numbers for eGolf and eUP are probably quite small from a large manufacturer. And they couldn't have bothered with the ID.* without the Tesla effect.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290968#Comment_118290968

Yes very small, 250k 😂

mfceiling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291941#Comment_118291941

Do you own an EV blue? You have some hatred for Tesla by your posts on here.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118292321#Comment_118292321

I don't hate Tesla, just pointing out the flaws in them. People raving about a charging network which doesn't cover half the country. That's without even discussing how poorly built they are.

I do own a BEV, owned multiple so I am well aware of the disadvantages of all of them and the advantages. It seems pointing out the flaws is not the way around here.

Would I buy a Tesla? not at the moment because it will takes ages to get delivered and then could be built terrible. Will I in the future, if they resolve the issues then of course

mfceiling

The old "they're built terrible chestnut".

Look at Richard Symons channel on YouTube and see what he thinks of the build quality. He's an EV specialist and is as fair and honest as they come.

It's old hat at this stage.

The charging network while not brilliant is way better than any other provider out there.

What model of BEV do you have? Curious to know as you previously claimed you knew nothing of the ESB network or Ionity.

Lantus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282990#Comment_118282990

The Tesla model 2 should be released in 2023/24. Vw Id life is set for 2025. That's some lag. Tesla can move and change very quick because it's processes and factory's are state of the art and designed to build EVs.

I think people fail to see the critical differences and just see cars. A lot of people saying it's easy to switch out a factory and build an ev but vw real world time is 5 years for above model. Too slow!

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118294053#Comment_118294053

You really need to stop believing the hype because it is all rubbish. When has Tesla ever met a deadline? they fire out dates, the fans lap them up, hand over money and then start with the excuses.

Do you honestly think Tesla factories are better than any of the other car manufacturers who are selling millions of cars every years :-)

The thread is about Toyota and not VW. The reason why electric cars are not big in the market is because the disadvantages are too big on them at the moment, the range is limited. The supply is limited. The network is poor to recharge. They still have no option for people who don't have a nice big driveway to park and charge a car overnight etc etc.

For some this is not a problem. For the majority this is. Plus even when you get past all of that and buy a Tesla, you run the risk of one showing up build in a "state of the art" factory but have bits hanging off it, large gaps at doors etc.

Toyota have excellent technology in the hybrid system, they have a PHEV out now with a large range. They have zero interest in diesel which is the problem at the moment. They have an electric car coming out in the most popular space in the World and they also have a build quality which is hard to rival in the World. The fact they are number 1 for a number of years confirms that.

Yes the fans will overlook the massive issues tesla have, others won't. The bigger issue now is Musk will soon be getting bored, when he gets bored he moves on and sells. In 2-3 years time will he even own Tesla or will he flog to GM or someone else?

mfceiling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118294276#Comment_118294276

Yawn...

They're not sending out cars with bits hanging off them or massive gaps at doors.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118294661#Comment_118294661

Really? just two, the list is a lot longer. It's funny how they make excuses for Tesla. If you bought a 100k BMW and it showed up with issues I doiubt anyone would make an excuse.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-owner-details-quality-control-issues-remains-supporter-2021-9?r=US&IR=T

https://insideevs.com/news/527421/tesla-models-owner-quality-issues/

Sorry but this is too funny not to add. A new safety feature that you can bring with you in and outside your car

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9721329/New-Tesla-owner-outraged-airbag-90-000-car-falls-hands.html

Busman Paddy Lasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118294276#Comment_118294276

"The thread is about Toyota and not VW. The reason why electric cars are not big in the market is because the disadvantages are too big on them at the moment, the range is limited. The supply is limited. The network is poor to recharge. They still have no option for people who don't have a nice big driveway to park and charge a car overnight etc etc"

Interesting to this as a Toyota EV thread, Tesla Fremont Factory used to be a venture between GM and Toyota. Toyota sold it to Tesla in a cooperation deal which included electric vehicle development.

Toyota invested in Tesla as part of that deal. They had a ten year head start and blew it. Backed hybrid and hydrogen instead.

Quick Google says Musk owns 17% of Tesla

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/11/10/business/elon-musk-tesla-stock-sale.amp.html

mfceiling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118294682#Comment_118294682

My wife bought an 840d BMW new at the start of the year.

So far it's been back with a heated seat motor that was stuck on and even though the switch said it was off the seat was boiling. The fan goes on high at the number one position (they're looking into it). The front tyre pressure sensor keeps saying the wheel is flat (it's not).

The car is 11 months old with 6 thousand kilometres on it.

Build quality? Excuses?

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118294763#Comment_118294763

How have Toyota blown it? they are the number 1 car manufacturer in the World and no sign of losing that anytime soon. Electric cars are still a tiny part of the market and at this stage they are not fit to grow any bigger because as already outlined the infastructure is not in place

The Toyota hybrid system is still way superior to flat petrols and you have most manufacturers only coming out now with hybrids and PHEV. The decision by Toyota to dump diesel means they have no vested interest in a technology which is going dead.

Just because Toyota is using a chinese company to ship out cheap chinese cars means very little. Electric cars will ony become mainstream when VW/Toyota/BMW have a full range available, as proved when the update of electric cars shot up with the ID range was launched.

Blue4u

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118294848#Comment_118294848

If I had a penny for every time on a website someone has a story to back up a point 😂

Back to the original Toyota story. Electric cars will not be main stream for at least 5 years. They will only become main stream when the likes of VW, Toyota etc bring out a FULL range of cars.

Do you honestly think if Toyota turned around tomorrow and said to Tesla we wilkl give you a few million if we can get XYZ to build our own cars they won't flog it?

Sure didn't VW sell off the electric car base to Ford so they could get up and running quickly. That's how the car manufactures work

galwaytt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118294848#Comment_118294848

cars - all - are liable to faults. Ironically, the more complex (read: expensive), the more faults. It's just a statistics thing. If your 840 didn't have heated seats (like most cars on Irish roads don't), then you couldn't fault (that), and you couldn't flag it as a fault.

The Dacia Spring will probably score highly for that very reason: what's not there, can't break, and if it's not key to the core car function: leave it out. Ergo : reliable.

There was a guy on here (or possibly FB EVOA page, cant' remember) recently who is trading out of his 1 yr old ID4 into a Kia EV6 because it's spent 4 months off the road in the 1st year.

Back O/T, I do think Toyota are late to the BEV party, but I'd be very surprised if the BYD wasn't anything other than an interim thing to bridge the gap until they have their own. There is also the very real issue of selling too many BYD built cars and any impact on the Toyota/Lexus usp: reliabilty & quality. For this reason I don't anticipate them spreading them all over the world, and it will be just a regional offering.

Like them or loathe them, ICE or Hybrid, there's a reason Toyota/Lexus are regularly at the top of the quality charts. They'd be fools to give that up.

celtic_oz

A prototype thought to be a fully-electric 2023 Toyota BZ Corolla has been caught testing ahead of its release in late 2022, but don’t expect to see the vehicle in local showrooms any time soon.

While the model name has yet to be confirmed, it’s believed Toyota is co-developing a cut-price Corolla with Chinese electric carmaker BYD

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/electric-2023-toyota-bz-corolla-spied