Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Is Ireland Racist?

  • 06-12-2021 2:23am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭


    I would say that Ireland is doing very well in relative terms to other countries especially considering the massive demographic shift we have seen in the last 20 years or so. Outliers like Gemma O Doherty and her handful of followers are to be expected but Irish people in general seem to be accepting of all people on first impression no matter colour/creed until they have a reason not to which is something to be admired.

    There are of course those with a particular agenda on twitter and the like who would have you believe that we are basically like the Antebellum South but these are usually young/immature people whose views are the result of saturating themselves in American media.



«13456718

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,462 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Yes, we are. It's actually hidden down near the bottom of the constitution and all. Article 51



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,489 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    As a country? No, I don't think so. We have long seen an affiliation with other groups or societies prejudiced against which I think has led us to be more naturally accepting towards others. We also don't have the colonial past or superiority complex which I think is the root cause in other countries where it is a significant problem. We don't have the history of ingrained racism within organizations or institutions such as exist in the US or previously in Northern Ireland. Irelands work place laws also are very progressive in ensuring that any such practice that might nurture a fledgling racist frame of mind are challenged pretty quickly. But I say all that as a white Irish person, so maybe I'm just not seeing something that doesn't affect me.

    But there are some racists within. And not just Gemma and her handful of vocal supporters. We've seen plenty unpleasant stories of public figures being targeted with racist remarks by Irish people and also video footage where members of the public are targeted (by other members of the public) in the same way.

    I think any act of racism or evidence of it should be rooted out no matter how small or apparently insignificant it is because to not do so allows such practice to appear normal or acceptable. I think there are a significant number of people who use very stringent criteria for something to be seen as having been racist and so they argue vehemently that some behaviour, that someone else might feel is racist, is not actually such. I think in their mind, as long as you don't use the N word, or a similar undisputedly offensive term, then you're not really being racist and that I think we should continue to call that out for what it is. I also think a lot of these people are quick to target or try to undermine someone who is trying to highlight racism moreso than they are whoever did behave unacceptably.

    Racism isn't a genetic trait you are born with, it can grow and fester if not challenged or if encouraged to do so by like minded individuals. We saw the way Brexit in the UK led to an increase in racist sentiment, just because Ireland or anywhere else can be seen as non-racist now, doesn't mean it isn't something that shouldn't be guarded against. And whatever about Twitter, where I ignore anonymous accounts, on here there's been a significant increase in the types of threads and discussions on topics around this whole space with plenty, questionable views expressed within them. But, that's a handful of accounts rather than a significant change in the national mindset, in my view.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,072 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    I find that it's generally people who don't interact with different races, and have never been the foreigner in another country that are obsessed with the topic, and those are the people who you tend to find on the extreme ends of the racism scale.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    In general, the less exposure to/contact with people of different ethnic/cultural backgrounds we have, the more likely we are to hold racist views. In other countries, the areas with the fewest ethnic minorities/immigrants are the areas where concerns about race or immigration are felt most strongly.

    If this holds good for Ireland, then you might think that, in the past, when Ireland have little immigration and few people of an ethnic minority background, racist views might have been quite widespread, but not often expressed because they occasion for expressing them did not often arise. As Ireland became more cosmopolitan and diverse, the prevalence of racist views in the population might be expected to diminish over time but their expression might rise, at least for a time.

    As to whether racist view are widespread now, the simple test is to ask people from cultural or ethnic minority backgrounds what their experience is. Whatever it is, listen to it. If you know few or no people of cultural or ethnic minority backgrounds that you can ask, that in itself might suggest that there's a fair degree of practical segregation at work in Irish society.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭SuperS54


    Rather important to stick to the dictionary definition of racism when discussing this topic, the term "racist" is very much abused by those trying to bully others who may think differently to themselves.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Oxford English Dictionary: "Prejudice, antagonism, or discrimination by an individual, institution, or society, against a person or people on the basis of their nationality or (now usually) their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized"



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    I find that most of it is people looking for racism under every rock they can find so they can tweet about it.

    And thats me speaking with one Indian parent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,763 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    I always thought that the Irish view was the simplest one in the world; just don't be a cnut. That's mine. I don't care where you're from, what you look like or which alphabet you go by, just don't be a cnut. If you're not, we may get along.



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


     'I think there are a significant number of people who use very stringent criteria for something to be seen as having been racist and so they argue vehemently that some behaviour, that someone else might feel is racist, is not actually such.'

    You can say that again. Some people think calling for a boycott of businesses because they are owned by people with a certain skin color is perfectly acceptable!


    Ireland racist? No, not in broad sense. Racist things happen for sure.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The only reference I can find for that quote is the CRER website, 'coalition for racial equality and rights' and seems to be quite politically loaded.


    The definition I can find and I believe most people commonly understand racism to be is

    "racism(noun): the unfair treatment of people who belong to a different race; violent behaviour towards them"

    " the belief that some races of people are better than others, or a general belief about a whole group of people based only on their race"

    Your defintion above would fit for two warring countries, which seems odd.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 14,930 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    On come on, we are one of the most racist countries in the world.

    Look at our attitudes to and treatment of our own ethnic minority throughout the decades if not centuries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The definition I quoted is the one in the Oxford English Dictionary (the big one, not the Shorter or the Concise); doubtless that's where the CRER got it from.

    The OED definition would not cover two warring countries, unless they were at war for reasons to do with race or ethnicity. But if it did cover two warring countries, wouldn't your suggested definition also cover two warring countries even more clearly?

    Yours looks much too wide: unfair treatment of, or violent behaviour towards, people of a different race would under that definition, be "racism" regardless of reason or motivation. At least the OED definition only covers treatment directed at people on the basis of their nationality, race or ethnicity.

    Which dictionary does your suggested definition come from?



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,921 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Well it obviously isn’t well hidden if you can find it in A51. Care to quote which part exactly?



  • Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭OneLungDavy


    One of the worst cases of racism I've seen recently was after the George Nchenko killing. The Spar workers caged into the shop while shouts of "white bastards" were directed at them. Turn on RTE the next day, they conveniently sweep in under the rug "Peaceful protests around the country". I'm sick of the double standard towards genuine racism, just call it out for what it is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    That's the term as commonly understood by most people, in Ireland, the word is used in context to denigrate opinions of others and is variously used as a synonym for prejudice, fascism, bigotry, xenophobia, unconscious bias, and holding opinions outside the 3" x 5" index card of allowable opinion. In modern Ireland objections by local groups to central government dumping large groups of refugees in their communities is regarded by opinion formers with quick access to the media as "racism", irrespective of the merits of locals arguments, and of course the Irish enmity for the designated ethnic minority called "the travellers". Elements of the charity industrial complex are a major purveyor of this new world of racism and the legislation they create to ensure future funding streams. I reckon John Smoke is not wide of the mark when he observes:

    Some of the loopiest stuff in Britain can be found out in the Celtic fringes. This is likely because these are places isolated and parochial, making them a breeding ground for liberal yokels with a chip on their shoulder who think they’re not ‘cosmopolitan enough’. See the entire state apparatus of the Irish Republic, for instance.


    source


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    There's less in this rant than meets the eye. Obviously the "racism" term has been understood as derogatory since at least 1945, so saying that people use the term to denigrate the opinions of others does not, in itself, suggest that they are using the term wrongly. Similarly, saying that they use it as "a synonym for prejudice, fascism, bigotry, xenophobia, unconscious bias" isn't saying much; racism is prejudiced, bigoted and xenophobic; fascists are often - even usually - racists, and unconscious bias can - obviously - be racist. So, again, these usages are not necessarily problematic.

    As for objections to the resettlement of refugees being denounced as racist when, in fact they are not, can you quote some examples - preferably, with links - of objection which are not racist but which have been denounced as racist? I'm not saying such a thing never happens, but I doubt that this is the dominant use. And of course there are many countervailing examples of people who deny that their views are racist when they quite obviously are.

    As for John Smoke, I have no idea who he is but the tone of his writing does not suggest that he is going to offer a dispassionate or balanced account of this (or any other) topic. I'm hoping for cites with a bit more credibility.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    As @Peregrinus says, in general a community/country/street/location with an homogenous population tends to be the most insular and unfriendly to outsiders. And historically Ireland was very homogenous, which in theory should be an indication of general unfriendliness to outsiders.

    I'm not sure it holds at a national level. Certainly back before the 90s, there would have been a lot of very casual racism. Ching-chong Chinaman jokes, "Eeny-meenie-miny-mo, catch a ....", and so forth. Not hate, but jokes if they were heard by any of these minorities, would definitely have a whole new aspect to them.

    Overall, I would say that we have adapted really well to immigration and been very accepting of other cultures and cultural differences. We've come to understand - with very little resistance - that cheap racist jokes and remarks of the past are not cool, and just dropped them. Of course there are pockets of racism. Every country has them.

    I expect this general ease of integration is a cultural thing. Having spent centuries with the local culture being demonised and suppressed, and millions of Irish people emigrating to live abroad, we generally have a "live and let live" approach. We don't insist that immigrants conform to Irish cultural norms, or get annoyed when they do their own thing. In the same way that the English might. So long as someone else expressing their culture doesn't force an Irishman to have to do anything or change anything, then they're happy to let at it; and often delighted to see something new or give it a try themselves.

    There is one very specific streak of racism running through Irish society; against travellers. And if you don't agree that it's racism, then whatever; hatred against travellers is endemic in the Irish. The whos and the whats and the whys aren't really relevant; hatred isn't justifiable. Yes, the traveller community could be considered racist against the settled community. But that's not OK either. Everything is not hunky dory just because everyone hates eachother and everyone has an anecdote of the time of "them" wronged us.

    So to answer the OP - is Ireland racist? Yes, but in a very singular and specific way.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    A more pertinent (and honest) question that the OP would like to pose is how long can the Progressive use the self-flagration of the fear of not being seen as Racist so as to push even more changes at a political and social levels. Douglas Murray, in his book "Strange death of Europe", identified this as the key tactic to push this agenda because of the lack of pushback against those who cry racism at ever opportunity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,514 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    It's a joke I presume. The constitution has 50 articles.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    This new way of judging the racism in society is to look at the disparate outcomes among groups and say 'aha, racism' this then is used to call anyone a racist who supports any policy deemed to be increasing these disparate outcomes. (E.g. Nixons war on drugs was seen by many as racist because it disproportionately effected minorities. Anyone seen to be supporting tougher immigration laws could also easily fall foul of this new definition of racism)

    For some reason the definition that you supplied now leaves out that the belief that one race is superior to another is racist. That's the majority of the racism I experienced growing up in Ireland with an Asian parent. I was looked down upon, joked about, stereotypes were slapped upon me because I was seen as different. That's what hurts. By way of how you were born you are inferior. Imagine having people think that about you? That's what you need to understand racism, that's why I think the definition that I supplied best fits this.

    Racism is the belief that groups of humans possess different behavioral traits corresponding to inherited attributes and can be divided based on the superiority of one race over another.

    We need to leave the politics out of it. Now it seems ok to look down on people and to see them as inferior at least if you have their best interests at heart. That's what I see in this new definition of racism and in practise and it disgusts me.

    From my experiences peoples attitudes haven't changed much over the years. There always will be a small amount of bigoted people, usually very ignorant and very stupid. Just you used to know who the racists were because they would let you know. I preferred that to them lying and smiling to my face.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 16,338 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    As to whether racist view are widespread now, the simple test is to ask people from cultural or ethnic minority backgrounds what their experience is. Whatever it is, listen to it.

    This is the measure that matters. Yes we should all strive to be more aware of our biases and be more accepting. But, the measure of whether that works? Is in the perceptions and experiences of those who are subject to those bias, not in our own understanding of what we think they feel.

    Also fully agree re cultural exposure and in particular travel. Particularly outside the Anglophone world it really does soften ones views. What we here in Ireland are fond of calling parochialism, is a form of clannishness that is falling more and more by the wayside. If the Irish welcome means anything at all these days? We should remember to try and extend it more. To learn from our own diaspora and remember what it was like to be locked out by the "natives" in so many of the places we went to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,514 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Is Ireland racist?

    At a national/structural level, then No. There are countries in which some element of discrimnation is pretty much woven into the structure/identity of the country, and Ireland is not one of them.

    Are there pockets of racism? For sure, like everywhere.

    Are there people who like to shoehorn racism into everything, as a motivation for any incident involving people of different races? Definitely.

    Are there people who like to argue endlessly about how X isn't racist, really, when you look at it from this pointless angle? Definitely.

    Are there people who like to blindly sling the term 'racism' around the place when somebody raises a legitimate issue? Definitely.

    Are there people who think they are being oh-so-cunning by cloaking their racism in 'a legitimate issue'? Definitely.

    I'd say similar about 'racism' as I've said about 'rape' in the past - everybody agrees that it's wrong, but there's huge disagreement (and much of that disingenuous) about what it actually is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,915 ✭✭✭TheIrishGrover


    Are there racists in Ireland? Yes

    Are there racists in EVERY country in the world? Yes

    If Ireland is considered racist because there are racists in Ireland then the same must be said for every country in the world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,630 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Can anyone point out a non-racist country? Where is this utopia?



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,703 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    i think we are largely very open and accepting, but i suspect the tides slowly turning there to!



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    @osarusan wrote:

    I'd say similar about 'racism' as I've said about 'rape' in the past - everybody agrees that it's wrong, but there's huge disagreement (and much of that disingenuous) about what it actually is.

    This is a good comparison. Like sexual assault/sexual harassment, it's one of those things that for a subset of people, it happens frequently enough to be a regular part of their life. For everyone else, they rarely if ever see it happening.

    And it results in a disconnect - the first group experience it so often that they can only assume the second group are aware of it but ignore it or take part in it. The second group see it so infrequently - if ever - that they struggle to accept that it is as ubiquitous as the first group makes it out to be.

    The reality is that both situations can be true - that some people experience or engage in racism on a regular, perhaps even daily basis, and that everyone else, even a majority, are completely unaware of it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Much like the definition of racism many other words have been updated recently to push political agendas. Of course there will be resistance from those who refuse to update their definitions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,941 ✭✭✭kravmaga


    OP, according to this recent survey, a lot of Irish people are on the fence and will not reveal their true opinion in public but behind the scenes is different.

    Opinions are different. Racism exists in every country. Prejudice and discrimination also exists in every country in the world.

    Direct discrimination, Indirect discrimination, Positive discrimination and Positive action are all well and alive in any country.

    An interesting book published by Gordon Allport in 1954, an American psychologist published a book called "The nature of Prejudice" in which he identified five levels of prejudice. Allport related his scale particularly to the Jews in Nazi Germany.

    OP, Ireland is no more racist as a country than any other in the world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    I call bullshit on that. Nationality would be xenophobia.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    As a country Ireland is not racist.

    Are there racists in Ireland? Absolutely. The worst ones in my opinion are the ones who try to disguise their racism as something else, something totally different. For example, they sudden worry for our services, education, health, that these things are completely under pressure because of a few new immigrants.

    point out that immigrants are all from different backgrounds, socio economic backgrounds, education backgrounds, then it's something else...

    always a very well spoken reason to put down the non natives.



Advertisement