Is Ireland Racist?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276210#Comment_118276210

The days of silencing people with cries of "racist" in order to push an agenda are over. Get over it and move on.

It is not racist to worry about any of the above because of 'a few new migrants'

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281848#Comment_118281848

If you're only worried about the demand on services because the people coming in are migrants, and don't raise the same concerns when people migrate e.g. from other counties, then, yeah, it looks a bit racist.

Plus, if your solution to the problem is to stop migrants coming in rather than to improve service levels then, again, it looks a teeny bit racist.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281848#Comment_118281848

The people who suddenly become 'worried' about such things, having never giving it a second thought previously, are indeed just doing it as a means to argue against foreigners. I'm not sure why you feel the need to defend them.

Wibbs

I would say that while there are certainly racists in Ireland, Ireland as a culture is not geared for racism in the way other nations are. Ex European colonial nations would be an example where the societies were geared for racism for a long time and that's been very hard to shake off. America an obvious case, where there was and largely remains a heirarchy in place with White Anglo Saxon Protestant Christians at the top and others following behind, where there was also institutional, financial and cultural racism in play for those of African and later of East Asian background, never mind Jews.

Outside the West in East Asia for example, they never had the post colonial and post WW2 nationalism as a negative guilt thing that the West did, particularly in Europe, so nationalism is stronger, as is the "Us" are better than "Them" narrative, so racism from a western viewpoint can be far more overt.

Now Ireland did have an institutional Cathloicism first after independence, but it wasn't based around "race" and it didn't last long. Plus it was one of the most homogenous nations in the West as far as "race" goes until very recently, so there were few outlets for overt racism simply because there were very few people who weren't White in the place, though it was certainly in play as a background thing. The old version of "eeny, meeny, miny, mo" I heard and accepted as a child of the 1970's would not fly today. Neither would "pennies for the Black babies" or golliwogs advertising teabags.

Going forward is more up for grabs on the racism front. As we've seen in other European nations, as they become more multicultural we see more racism coming into focus, more banding and perceptions of of people into homogenous groups and divisiveness and ghettoisation increases and the same heriarchies build up. And that's very much based on "race". We can already see the beginnings of that here. Yes Ireland has become much more diverse since the mid 90's, however the vast majority of that diversity were and are White Europeans just like the natives, but one could be forgiven for not seeing that and think the majority of this new diversity were non White Europeans. Both the alt right racists and the anti racists certainly seem to have that perception and both work from that perception.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281451#Comment_118281451

No, it's most certainly not a joke.

I've been a party to these kinds of events and understand full well how artificial friendships get formed bereft of any long-term meaning.

It's no wonder immigrants think that the native population are hard to befriend when you have the above as your only comparison.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282889#Comment_118282889

Wtf?

What does my post have to do with you?

Bit paranoid there 🙄

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118275837#Comment_118275837

Travellers are white Irish

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283174#Comment_118283174

Agree, white indigenous Irish cannot be "racist" to other white indigenous irish.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118280344#Comment_118280344

Irish people don't want to let people from three parishes over into their circle ,never mind someone from Brazil

We are unbelievably cliquey

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281551#Comment_118281551

Yes, whatever our progressive enlightened betters deem it to be.

Simples

WrenBoy

Demoralise, Demoralise, Demoralise..

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283221#Comment_118283221

It's pretty much the same everywhere you go. Irish people are not unique in this respect.

Of course, you'll have the usual bloodhounds on here salivating and waiting to brand them with the scarlet "R". The fact is that most humans are tribal by nature and tend to congregate with others of a similar background, with whom they feel most comfortable.

Ash.J.Williams

the Irish middle class will say Ireland as a country isn’t racist , head out and about and you see how your unwashed treat foreign people , it’s nasty

thefallingman

i think Ireland is pretty racist to be honest, look at the comments after that young black guy with mental issues was shot dead by a gang of 12 gardai, would that have happened to a white guy, and then his surviving family having to read all the stuff in the coming days, i don't think so. But in saying that i believe we as a country are getting better than we were, and we're alot better than Australia, i lived there for a year and they were really bad, especially to Asians and Turks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283211#Comment_118283211

Except that racism includes the aspect of culturalism. ie. the fear/hatred/contempt of another culture, which is generally the beef that Irish people have towards Travellers. i.e. it is Traveller culture that encourages them to behave as they do, and thus earn the negative perception of many Irish people.

Racism has lost any real definitive importance because it can be applied to just about any situation that involves race, culture, etc.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283262#Comment_118283262

I wasn't actually thinking of our clannishness in terms of racism at all.

Not sure I agree that it's the same everywhere though

Most of us are a few generations at most from a farm ,Ireland still has a deeply rural mindset , if Brad Pitt walked into many local pubs in much of Ireland, the women would be more interested in Tommy local hurler

All about keeping it in the parish

Pussyhands

There's a sizeable cohort who wish Ireland was racist. It would mean they'd be able to show how loving and caring they are to strangers online and make themselves feel good.

There's even a sizeable cohort who believe in supporting criminality to show how anti racist they are.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283293#Comment_118283293

When groups (government advertising, the media, activists) emphasize race as being important and distinctive for years.... of course people are going to focus on it in considering such an incident.

You can't get one without the other. Expecting people to take notice of Black people, that they should be supported as a disadvantaged group, etc, especially considering how connected we are through media, seeing what has happened in the US.... and not expect the same recognition to bleed into other areas of life.

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283293#Comment_118283293

I see we're just re-writing facts now to whatever we want.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283293#Comment_118283293

Are you referring to George Nkencho, the 27 year old grown man, who swung for AGS with a machete? This was after they tried reasoning with him, followed him home at a respectful distance, and tried once more to disarm him, before he lashed out at members of the force. This is the same George Nkencho, who an hour earlier battered the manager of Eurospar in Hartstown, leaving him with horrific injuries. The manager of Eurospar was called Wayne, in case you're interested.

Let's not forget the behavior of George's supporters in the aftermath of this event. Going a rampage in the Blanchardstown shopping center, forcing the staff in Eurospar to pull down the shutters, whilst a baying mob outside were screeching about "white bastards", or his brother threatening to "do" members of AGS. I agree that there was a significant amount of racism around this incident, with much of it attributing to the African-origin community in West Dublin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283293#Comment_118283293

Well there were definitely attempts to make it a racist incident.

It wasnt, of course, it had nothing to do with race, but that didn't stop some people

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283464#Comment_118283464

You are right, the facts haven't stopped anyone from using it as a weapon to attack Irish people calling them racists.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283464#Comment_118283464

I've never seen a white man shot dead by a crowd of 12 gardai in a garden in front of his family before that's what makes it stick out to me anyway, and the reaction then after, and much like Hamchis comments above just left a sour taste but i respect your opinion of course, this just happens to be mine. But like i said i also think we are getting better as a country in general.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283518#Comment_118283518

There were 4, maximum 5 members of AGS outside his house.

Your attempted re-writing of the facts related to this incident leave a very sour taste I must say, particularly for those who live in the neighborhood and personally know some of the people involved.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283518#Comment_118283518

Never heard of John Carthy then? Or what about Mark Hennessey?

Also, there were not 12 gardai in the garden, you need to get your facts right.

When a shooting by armed gardai take place, there is one thing investigated, is it legal and justified? If it is, it does not matter one smidge whether the dead guy is white, black, traveller, or a middle aged white bank manager.

All that matters is that it is legal. And that shooting in Blanchardstown was legal.

If it is not legal, then you see prosecutions of the member that shot him, and various motives and reasons may be explored then. Just because a black man was shot, does not make it racist. I'm fact, given that we are a predominantly white nation, it stands to reason that most people shot by gardai have been white, I expect that to change as our population does.

thefallingman

This is from wiki and is anywhere else you google, turns out there was more than 12 gardai there, i'm not saying he was innocent clearly, but did he deserve to be gunned down the way he was with bullets flying into the house full of kids, i don't think so and i genuinely don't think it would happen to a white guy either, that's just my opinion.

Timeline[edit]

Prior to the standoff with armed Gardaí, Nkencho was involved in an altercation in a Eurospar supermarket in Hartstown, where he allegedly assaulted a manager who received a broken nose which required him being taken to Connolly Hospital.[5][6] Nkencho then produced a kitchen knife from his pocket and threatened staff and later the Gardaí.[7][8] He was followed by twelve unarmed Gardaí, later backed up by members of the Armed Support Unit, who instructed him to drop the knife and then used tasers and pepper spray in attempts to disarm him.[9][10] At 12:35pm, a member of the Armed Support Unit fired six shots at Nkencho outside his family home.[11][12][13] Nkencho received first aid at the scene from members of the Gardaí and was taken to Connolly Memorial Hospital, where he was later pronounced dead.[14][15]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283677#Comment_118283677

Well official investigators will disagree with you, a legal and lawful killing is just that. Your opinion doesn't really cut it, in official legal terms, no offence.

I'm not saying that it's a good thing, it's a terrible thing, but it was legal.

fyi, don't take your facts from Wikipedia 🙄

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283677#Comment_118283677

your probably better off not using wiki as a source to form your opinions , especially considering the lack of self awareness your displaying here 😀

for clarity though anyone trying to murder gardai or anyone else deserves to be "gunned down "

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283706#Comment_118283706

i never said anything about legality, the amount of gardai there was never in dispute, just by a few here, like there was a machette, when in actual fact it was a kitchen knife. Anyway this is getting onto a different discussion than the op's original question so i'll leave it there people will make up their own mind anyway which luckily we are entitled to do.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283301#Comment_118283301

Culture (boss?) is not a race.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283743#Comment_118283743

You never mentioned legality?

That's the whole point, if the incident was legal, how could you possibly believe it was racist? That doesn't make sense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283801#Comment_118283801

I didn't say it was. I said that culturalism is part of racism. Which if you do a little bit of reading, you'll find it to be the case. As such, feeling contempt towards another culture can be interpreted as racism.

I'm not saying I agree with such an expansion of the scope of the term racism. I don't. It takes away from the impact/importance that the term has, but it is what it is.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283743#Comment_118283743

There is a difference between the ASU and general Gardai. You might want to reconsider what Hamachi said.

As for the kitchen knife reference, that could include a wide variety of shapes and sizes. You've sought to downplay Nkencho's part in all this... and pass responsibility on to others, namely the Gardai, and use this as an indication of racism in Ireland. When, in fact, Nkencho went nuts, attacked multiple people with a weapon, repeatedly refused to back down, and was shot as he threatened the police. His race wasn't a factor until his family started complaining about what happened.

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283305#Comment_118283305

And long may that continue as far as I'm concerned.

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283518#Comment_118283518

Top tips to avoid getting shot dead by the cops- don't go down to the shops and batter the manager, then swing a knife around in shop as this will attract the cops.

Also when armed cops are trying to get you to drop the knife don't swing for them!

Fairly basic stuff I would have thought but some people find it very hard to grasp and instead want justice!

I think the only real way to determine how racist this country is is to speak to people of other races living here. What is their experience. And i mean real ordinary people not some of the hucksters whose wage depends on portraying the Irish as racist.

Id imagine most have had experiences of racism here. How bad i don't know. Joe Duffy did a show a year or 2 ago where he interviewed people on their experiences and it seemed pretty bad for some of them.

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287643#Comment_118287643

Joe's hardly going to have a load of people on who've experienced no racism and not have a story to tell though is he

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287737#Comment_118287737

You think racism is not a problem in Ireland ?

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287744#Comment_118287744

What do you mean by a problem? It happens, yes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287760#Comment_118287760

As i stated above i don't know how much of an issue it is, we'd need to hear from peoples experiences. I just asked you a question.

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287778#Comment_118287778

I know, sure I answered did I not.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287790#Comment_118287790

Just about yeah. Thanks

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287800#Comment_118287800

You are welcome. Enjoy your night pal. I myself am off to sleep.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287643#Comment_118287643

That really doesn't mean much though. I've traveled extensively, and I could probably assign many of my bad or lukewarm experiences to racism if I wanted to. In some cases, they definitely were related to racism, but others could been simply that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or some people have really stupid mindsets when it comes to insults and agro.

The point being that experiencing racism in a country, doesn't make that nation (and everyone who lives there) racist. Individuals are racist. Some groups are intentionally racist.. but the idea that you can call an entire country racist is nuts...

The simple truth is that everyone can and will experience some racism firsthand... even in their own country. There's plenty of Black people who are racist towards other Black people (Africa is extremely tribal after all). Plenty of white people who project guilt over being white. TBH every time I hear a White person going on about white privilege, I know that they're being racist towards their own ethnic group. But it still comes down to individual or mob behavior.

I already mentioned earlier in the thread a country can't be racist. That some individuals are racist. But id like to try and understand the extent of it here. And its through peoples stories that we might get an idea of that. And yes some will interpret things as racist such as being overlooked for a job where they just weren't the best candidate.

On the face of it i don't think we are a particularly racist country. But i am a white Irish man who has never experienced any sort of prejudice in this country. So i couldn't speak for the experiences of an African living here or a Pakistani. I wouldn't be an easy undertaking to get an accurate picture as someone mentioned earlier the people most likely to ring Joe Duffy about racism would be people who have had bad experiences.

I can only speak for my own experiences and what I've observed. I have Asian family and friends of various ethnic backgrounds.

Structurally, no. I think contemporary Ireland makes a strong effort to ensure racism doesn't happen and by and large in officialdom, employment and education it seems to be fairly good.

In day to day life, my Asian family members haven't encountered any issues and have had very good and open career opportunities and have been quite well embraced.

Where things start to have issues here is where many of us have issues - thuggush abuse by what I can only describe "roaming street bullies". I've heard of and seen several incidents of really nasty racial abuse from these "characters" but, it also has to be said that they seem to also be willing to throw any other kind of abuse too and are often just vicious to absolutely everyone.

I've encountered occasional and really quite shocking racism from some older folks (in Dublin). Most of it is just sheer ignorance but some of it really couldn't be explained away by that and it was as downright nasty in reference to "mixed marriages" and expression of faux concern for mixed race children, who happen to be my neices and nephews.

I am not sure where those attitudes came from, but they were no different to what you'd see in Britain from a certain type either.

I don't think we have anything like the race relations issues the US has and we don't share its history. I think it's also something we need to avoid importing.

I also think you have to be a little careful not to assume aspects of online social media racism is reflected in the real world. It can be extremely vicious, all about pile ons and bubbles and it often isn't defined by geography. I know I've encountered abuse myself from weirdos online.

Irishness is very much a state of mind and I think for most of us it's also something that is capable of embracing and bringing people into the fold and into the big, broad Irish family. I think that's something we should feel proud of and confident about.

We have a hugely positive and outward looking national identity that isn't about the fragile ego of ethnic nationalism and anyone who tries to push it into being about bloodlines needs to be told where to go.

The other area we fall down badly on is definitely around our relationship with our own traveling community. There are social problems and, like in most ethnic groups that have suffered from social and economic exclusion, you'll find that is both the root cause and the driver of a vicious cycle of exclusion, feeding into lack of opportunity and into social problems which, reinforce prejudice, which causes more exclusion and the cycle goes on and on and on ...

It takes a big effort to break that cycle and I think we are only barely beginning to do so. It will take bridges to be built, trust to be built and community to connect, but I would say that at least we are recognising it is a problem and we are tackling it.

Overall I think ireland has racists and racism issues. They're not American problems nor are they a byproduct of imperialism superiority complexes and we need to identify and solve our own unique issues.

However, by and large I don't think Ireland is particularly racist. It's also self aware enough as a society to identify and tackle these issues and not so arrogant as to think it's perfect. We do genuinely strive to be a decent society. That's probably the main thing that will ensure that we have a good outcome.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278028#Comment_118278028

Yeah, the Irish abroad tend to stick together.

And in places like the US they are definitely racist, it goes back generations and exhibits itself in recently arrived Irish immigrants to.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283518#Comment_118283518

that's because you've obviously never looked, that's how people usually get shot by cops, abbylara is one to look up.

BingCrosbee

Racism is ignorance and we have become a very well educated country so that we generally make other nationalities very welcome and they appreciate that. Those who don’t interact generally with people and who contribute negatively to society are the racists in Ireland. They don’t work and never have and they rear families who follow the same route through life.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288271#Comment_118288271

The other area we fall down badly on is definitely around our relationship with our own traveling community. There are social problems and, like in most ethnic groups that have suffered from social and economic exclusion, you'll find that is both the root cause and the driver of a vicious cycle of exclusion, feeding into lack of opportunity and into social problems which, reinforce prejudice, which causes more exclusion and the cycle goes on and on and on ...

The "cycle" with the Travellers exists because their culture is completely incompatible with a modern society. It's a primitive culture that encourages abuse of all kinds, and invariably leads to them becoming outsiders. Stop protecting that culture, and the cycle will end with Travellers becoming part of mainstream society, because there would be no more excuses for behaviors that are unacceptable to us. ie, the abuse and the focus on violence.

The cycle goes on and on, because they're encouraged through government supports to maintain that culture. The racism directed towards Travellers exists because their behavior is offensive to many Irish people. It's not complicated, and it's not hard to understand.