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Civil Service Flexitime

  • 30-11-2021 12:52pm
    Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭exitstageleft

    Anytime know what the craic is with Flexitime in the civil service at the moment?

    From what I gather, it's been cancelled since March 2022 with no sign of it returning. I often heard it sold as one of the perks of civil service work so is this making the job less attractive?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,536 ✭✭✭billyhead

    You mean March 2020. It's suspended for those WFH.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly

  • How flexitime will operate in a blended working environment in the future is one of the items being negotiated between the Unions and DPER as part of the plan for an overall Blended Working Policy to be implemented across the Civil Service in 2022.

    Don't expect it to return until those plans are finalised.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭Gusser09

    Flexi leave has been cancelled for obvious reasons. Flexi time is still there. Core hours still exist but once you are working up to the minimum required hours then happy days.

    I'd be more than happy to lose flexi leave permanently in lieu of 100 per cent wfh.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,353 ✭✭✭StevenToast

    "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." - Fletcher

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭Gusser09

    But keeping flexi working hours would be a must.

  • Agreed. Flexible start / lunch \ finish is more important to me than accruing flexi leave.

    So far as Ive heard, 100% WFH will not be an option.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,353 ✭✭✭StevenToast

    "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." - Fletcher

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭BrianD3

    What's the thinking behind no flexi for those WFH, is it a "they'll All just doss" attitude. The civil and public service yet again treating staff like bold school children instead of making the effort to manage effectively and weed out poor performance.

    Time card fraud was happening in the public service before covid i.e. when all staff were in the office. Friends clocking each other in and out. So called managers either unaware of it or couldn't be bothered tackling it. WFH introduced and flexi withdrawn. This withdrawal adversely affects good performers who do the majority of the work and who cannot do their jobs as effectively if they are sticking to rigid hours.

  • Registered Users Posts: 20,338 ✭✭✭✭Rikand

    We're in the office 5 days a week and our CEO as good as said that we are unable to do our work from home so we'll continue to be in the office 5 days a week. We are able to work up flexitime though. Just one of the perks of the job of being forced to be in the office 5 days a week.

    I feel a little bit sorry for the good people like the poster above me. It's always the few bad eggs that ruin it for everybody else.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭exitstageleft

    I'm not sure I get the obvious reasons Flexi-leave is cancelled.

    If it's because of a lack of trust in employees who are Working from Home, then surely the same logic would mean Flexi-time should also be cancelled?

    I guess I don't understand two things:

    Why either would be cancelled because of WFH;

    And why one would be cancelled but not the other.

    I thought that Flexitime was originally cancelled because the massive upheaval presented by the work from home directive at the start of 2020 meant an all-hands-on-deck approach was needed. I didn't think it was because the staff weren't trusted.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly

    I used to it in my office. The bosses go home and the same crew spending the next hour sitting in the canteen building up flexi.

    I'm WFH and would happy give it up. It was just handy for appointments with the kids which are now holidays.

  • Flexi time is still in operation - or at least it is in my Department. The only thing that has changed is that those who are WFH cannot accrue extra hours towards flexi leave.

    We clock in and clock out the same as we always did, we just do it online now rather than at a clocking terminal in the physical office. Our working hours are recorded as they always where.

    I know in other Departments (from reading threads here) that some Departments are not doing online clocking.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭thefallingman

    i've worked in the office all through covid and i can tell you it's the weaker and less productive staff who are screaming to work from home, the difference is incredible.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,478 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997

    Wasting a few hours commuting into the office suggests otherwise.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,478 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997

    You'd have to assume its a scheduling issue. If everyone condenses their weekly hours into less days there will be less people available to cover all the days. So it depends if you are covering something, or producing some output. If you are not measuring productivity, then being present and clock watching is the poor quality alternative.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly

    Only 1 word to describe that comment... Rubbish 🤣

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭thefallingman

    it's just what i've witnessed in my office i'm not saying it's nationwide, but for sure the working from homers are getting off lightly workwise, and get moaned about by the people coming into the office. I guess reduced rates of pay could be offered to wfm fulltime.

  • Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭exitstageleft

    However, I would have expected the scheduling issue would arise regardless of whether staff are in office (Flexi-leave allowed) or at home (not allowed).

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly

    I'm more productive at home than in the office with my stats monitored as they always were but with no distractions

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman

    Banking extra hours worked against flexi-leave is a fundamental part of any flexi system. What happens to the extra hours you work now? Was your flexi balance retained when flexi-leave was banned or did they lapse?

    Why not allow flexi hours to be offset against flexi-leave?

  • What happens to the extra hours you work now?

    Hours worked over and above target hours are lost.

    Was your flexi balance retained when flexi-leave was banned, or did they lapse?

    They were retained, but we are unable to use them at present.

    Why not allow flexi hours to be offset against flexi-leave?

    Let me start by saying I don't make the rules! This isn't a decision that was made at individual Department level. It was made by DPER. I don't know the actual reason why, but I can guess.

    One of the (often forgotten) rules of accruing hours for flexi-leave is that you have enough work to do, that you don't get it all done during your normal 7:24, so you put in extra time to get it done. It's not just "staying in the building until 7pm" to build up hours. I can see the reasoning why they pulled flexi leave for those working from home.

  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭Chaos Black

    In some areas/department “local arrangements” are in place. In others extended hours without accruing flexi has become the norm. E.g. At the start of the pandemic people did extra work to cover the emergency, over time those additional hours stuck (not officially of course).

    Neither approach is technically correct, but since when do people listen to DPER!

    I can’t see flexi leave coming back until they come up with a hybrid policy.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly

    I'm at 11.30 and anything above that gets lost. I manage my day very carefully

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,478 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997

  • The thing to remember is, flexitime and/or flexi-leave is not guaranteed. Pre-covid how it was operated was at the discretion of each Department and it could be changed and/or suspended at any time, such as was happened in April 2020. It was always classed as a privilege and is not an entitlement.

    My guess (and this is purely speculative) is that flexible working hours will be retained and become even more flexible as part of the hybrid model, (e.g. staggered hours / swapping days if you have appointments) but accruing flexi-leave, will go.

    If there is proven business need for extra hours to be worked outside of the standard working hours, then time-in-lieu can still be claimed.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,536 ✭✭✭billyhead

    As mentioned in this thread I'm personally not bothered about losing the Flexi leave entitlement as long as we are allowed to WFH.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,478 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997

    Not in the CS but if it anything like my place you can see the general erosion of Job benefits.

    No (or very limited) WFH but limited flextime

    Covid so WFH but no flextime, but flexible working (hours)

    Gradual withdraw of flexible hours

    Gradual withdrawal of WFH

    End result no WFH, Flexitime, or flexible hours. No timeframe for reinstatement.

    May not be deliberate, but you end up worse off, ultimately. So then other jobs which you might not have considered previous because of less working benefits like flextime or WFH. Are now much more attractive, you might even gain these benefits back somewhere else.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭Gusser09

    The only thing about the Civil Service is the unions do hold power. I can guarantee you that the above won't happen. I can see a stipulation that if you opt for WFH then you will not be allowed to accrue hours towards flexi leave during those days you are wfh. Again I'd be happy with that. I'd argue though in return the extra 27 minutes which was imposed on us during the last recession should also be removed on days we are in the office as part of a hybrid wfh model. A strong social partnership needs give and take.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭square ball