Civil Service Flexitime

exitstageleft

Anytime know what the craic is with Flexitime in the civil service at the moment?

From what I gather, it's been cancelled since March 2022 with no sign of it returning. I often heard it sold as one of the perks of civil service work so is this making the job less attractive?

billyhead

You mean March 2020. It's suspended for those WFH.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244988#Comment_118244988

Which for now is most of us.

How flexitime will operate in a blended working environment in the future is one of the items being negotiated between the Unions and DPER as part of the plan for an overall Blended Working Policy to be implemented across the Civil Service in 2022.

Don't expect it to return until those plans are finalised.

Gusser09

Flexi leave has been cancelled for obvious reasons. Flexi time is still there. Core hours still exist but once you are working up to the minimum required hours then happy days.

I'd be more than happy to lose flexi leave permanently in lieu of 100 per cent wfh.

StevenToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245205#Comment_118245205

I agree

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245278#Comment_118245278

But keeping flexi working hours would be a must.

Agreed. Flexible start / lunch \ finish is more important to me than accruing flexi leave.

So far as Ive heard, 100% WFH will not be an option.

StevenToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245290#Comment_118245290

Its like I am talking to myself!

BrianD3

What's the thinking behind no flexi for those WFH, is it a "they'll All just doss" attitude. The civil and public service yet again treating staff like bold school children instead of making the effort to manage effectively and weed out poor performance.

Time card fraud was happening in the public service before covid i.e. when all staff were in the office. Friends clocking each other in and out. So called managers either unaware of it or couldn't be bothered tackling it. WFH introduced and flexi withdrawn. This withdrawal adversely affects good performers who do the majority of the work and who cannot do their jobs as effectively if they are sticking to rigid hours.

Rikand

We're in the office 5 days a week and our CEO as good as said that we are unable to do our work from home so we'll continue to be in the office 5 days a week. We are able to work up flexitime though. Just one of the perks of the job of being forced to be in the office 5 days a week.

I feel a little bit sorry for the good people like the poster above me. It's always the few bad eggs that ruin it for everybody else.

exitstageleft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245205#Comment_118245205

I'm not sure I get the obvious reasons Flexi-leave is cancelled.

If it's because of a lack of trust in employees who are Working from Home, then surely the same logic would mean Flexi-time should also be cancelled?

I guess I don't understand two things:

Why either would be cancelled because of WFH;

And why one would be cancelled but not the other.

I thought that Flexitime was originally cancelled because the massive upheaval presented by the work from home directive at the start of 2020 meant an all-hands-on-deck approach was needed. I didn't think it was because the staff weren't trusted.

I used to it in my office. The bosses go home and the same crew spending the next hour sitting in the canteen building up flexi.

I'm WFH and would happy give it up. It was just handy for appointments with the kids which are now holidays.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249856#Comment_118249856

Flexi time is still in operation - or at least it is in my Department. The only thing that has changed is that those who are WFH cannot accrue extra hours towards flexi leave.

We clock in and clock out the same as we always did, we just do it online now rather than at a clocking terminal in the physical office. Our working hours are recorded as they always where.

I know in other Departments (from reading threads here) that some Departments are not doing online clocking.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250103#Comment_118250103

i've worked in the office all through covid and i can tell you it's the weaker and less productive staff who are screaming to work from home, the difference is incredible.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250604#Comment_118250604

Wasting a few hours commuting into the office suggests otherwise.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250173#Comment_118250173

You'd have to assume its a scheduling issue. If everyone condenses their weekly hours into less days there will be less people available to cover all the days. So it depends if you are covering something, or producing some output. If you are not measuring productivity, then being present and clock watching is the poor quality alternative.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250604#Comment_118250604

Only 1 word to describe that comment... Rubbish 🤣

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251617#Comment_118251617

it's just what i've witnessed in my office i'm not saying it's nationwide, but for sure the working from homers are getting off lightly workwise, and get moaned about by the people coming into the office. I guess reduced rates of pay could be offered to wfm fulltime.

exitstageleft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251170#Comment_118251170

However, I would have expected the scheduling issue would arise regardless of whether staff are in office (Flexi-leave allowed) or at home (not allowed).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251644#Comment_118251644

I'm more productive at home than in the office with my stats monitored as they always were but with no distractions

Wombatman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250554#Comment_118250554

Banking extra hours worked against flexi-leave is a fundamental part of any flexi system. What happens to the extra hours you work now? Was your flexi balance retained when flexi-leave was banned or did they lapse?

Why not allow flexi hours to be offset against flexi-leave?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251902#Comment_118251902

What happens to the extra hours you work now?

Hours worked over and above target hours are lost.

Was your flexi balance retained when flexi-leave was banned, or did they lapse?

They were retained, but we are unable to use them at present.

Why not allow flexi hours to be offset against flexi-leave?

Let me start by saying I don't make the rules! This isn't a decision that was made at individual Department level. It was made by DPER. I don't know the actual reason why, but I can guess.

One of the (often forgotten) rules of accruing hours for flexi-leave is that you have enough work to do, that you don't get it all done during your normal 7:24, so you put in extra time to get it done. It's not just "staying in the building until 7pm" to build up hours. I can see the reasoning why they pulled flexi leave for those working from home.

Chaos Black

In some areas/department “local arrangements” are in place. In others extended hours without accruing flexi has become the norm. E.g. At the start of the pandemic people did extra work to cover the emergency, over time those additional hours stuck (not officially of course).

Neither approach is technically correct, but since when do people listen to DPER!

I can’t see flexi leave coming back until they come up with a hybrid policy.

I'm at 11.30 and anything above that gets lost. I manage my day very carefully

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251714#Comment_118251714

It happens vastly less though.

The thing to remember is, flexitime and/or flexi-leave is not guaranteed. Pre-covid how it was operated was at the discretion of each Department and it could be changed and/or suspended at any time, such as was happened in April 2020. It was always classed as a privilege and is not an entitlement.

My guess (and this is purely speculative) is that flexible working hours will be retained and become even more flexible as part of the hybrid model, (e.g. staggered hours / swapping days if you have appointments) but accruing flexi-leave, will go.

If there is proven business need for extra hours to be worked outside of the standard working hours, then time-in-lieu can still be claimed.

billyhead

As mentioned in this thread I'm personally not bothered about losing the Flexi leave entitlement as long as we are allowed to WFH.

Flinty997

Not in the CS but if it anything like my place you can see the general erosion of Job benefits.

No (or very limited) WFH but limited flextime

Covid so WFH but no flextime, but flexible working (hours)

Gradual withdraw of flexible hours

Gradual withdrawal of WFH

End result no WFH, Flexitime, or flexible hours. No timeframe for reinstatement.

May not be deliberate, but you end up worse off, ultimately. So then other jobs which you might not have considered previous because of less working benefits like flextime or WFH. Are now much more attractive, you might even gain these benefits back somewhere else.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118255915#Comment_118255915

The only thing about the Civil Service is the unions do hold power. I can guarantee you that the above won't happen. I can see a stipulation that if you opt for WFH then you will not be allowed to accrue hours towards flexi leave during those days you are wfh. Again I'd be happy with that. I'd argue though in return the extra 27 minutes which was imposed on us during the last recession should also be removed on days we are in the office as part of a hybrid wfh model. A strong social partnership needs give and take.

square ball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251644#Comment_118251644

What Department are you working in?

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118256346#Comment_118256346

An honest one, you ?

square ball

DSP for my sins.

HartsHat

Two things. Lots of civil servants don't have any flexitime, anyone from AP and above, for example.

Secondly anyone who works in the CS and hasn't seen lazy colleagues abusing flexi is lying.

One person in a Dept I used to work in used to come in at 7.30am and head off in to town in to coffee. She'd wander back around 8.45am with 1 hour and 15 of flexi built up, every morning.

Imagine those people with WFH and flexitime.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118261375#Comment_118261375

Just on the above, you cant accrue flexi before 8am! Or more than 11.5 hours in a four week period.

I'm not going to deny there are those who abuse flexi, but if this woman's pattern of behaviour was well known, then the onus was on her supervisor to pull her up on it.

You wouldn't get away with that where I work.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118261375#Comment_118261375

Does this mean AP and above aren't trustworthy. Or if someone doesn't have flexi they couldn't just leave their office for a few hours and do nothing, or just sit at their desk and do nothing. None of that is Unique to CS.

What is means is their performance and output regardless of who they are or public or private is not being measured.

Conqueror

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118262262#Comment_118262262

In Health, one was able to accrue flexi from 7:30am from early 2019.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118262966#Comment_118262966

Okay, I didn't know that about Health - but it still doesn't change the fact that supervisors should be responsible for making sure this type of abuse doesn't happen amongst their staff. If someone is getting away with this kind of abuse, I see that as a failure on the part of their manager to manage.

There was flexi abuse going on in my department a few years ago but HRD went on a purge. A lot of people got into a LOT of trouble, and there were consequences, including suspensions, withdrawal of increments, people permanently removed from flexitime, amongst other measures taken. It doesn't go on any more.

But, the thing is, someone like that woman mentioned is what makes the argument for the retention of flexi-leave difficult. They ruin it for everyone, including for those who are not abusing it. If someone can't accrue extra hours, there is no point them logging on/showing up at 7:30am and staying until 7:00pm.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118261375#Comment_118261375

I knew an ap who would wander in at 9 go to the canteen after putting their coat in the office and be still there at 1030 when I went for my tea break.

The person would then complain how busy they were 🤣.

You just couldn't make it up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118262966#Comment_118262966

The only thing is its harder to hide in an open plan office. The APs working with the plebs was a real struggle for them. They couldn't pretend to be working. 😁

HartsHat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118262810#Comment_118262810

That's only true if you think clocking on and off is the only way to measure performance and output.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118261375#Comment_118261375

We have them, sign in at 8am, then breakfast at their desk till 9am, then "tea break" at 1030, but not for the required 20 minutes, they take 45. Then the oul 30 minutes flexi lunch that lasts an hour, these are people crying to work from home and they can't be trusted and their stats are way down but noone says anything, because all of the boss's are at home doing the same thing.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118263431#Comment_118263431

That was MY point :) I was being rhetorical.

Its that old argument, how do you know if people are working at home? The answer to that is well how do you know they are working in the office? Often the answer is you don't know what they are doing in the office. THAT is why you don't know what they are doing at home.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118263564#Comment_118263564

That's the other side of it. you can only know how much something is improved by measuring the before and after. if no one does this. Or if people ignore the stats, then they can make up any story they like. Something like is a culture thats driven from he top down.

This is why they come up with things like Competency interviews and PDMS system. The bluffers can avoid having to use metric's and output when getting up the ladder. Once there they are unable to answer any question about anything.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118262966#Comment_118262966

There was a big debate moving to Miesian plaza about the location of the clocks. Some didn't want a clock and you'd have to log into your pc and clock in. They eventually relented.

As for the lobby and having it next to the canteen but I can't go there.

My dept has to clock in at a pc.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118263431#Comment_118263431

Yes, but the problem is any kind of meaningful performance management in the CS means the boss comes under fire from the unions or you end up with a bullying complaint. So you just have to let it go as HR aren't going to take a tough enough stance to remove the problem.

Augme

There are people who will do anything to avoid work. In every walk of life Nd job. They are easier to get rid of in the private sector though.

There are many problems in the civil service. Weak managers, weak hrs, weak unions. These allow people to do nothing and get away with it. But another big problem is that they've taken the attitude that the best way to deal with the underperforms in to treat a large portion of the civil service like a child.

The quality of managers in the civil service is poor. As is the quality of training on offer to them. There's never any requirements to upskill or improve your skills and management skills. If someone does want to learn it is basically done on a voluntary basis. Probation is too easy to pass and so is the yearly performance review.

billyhead

I think a lot of Departments are clamping down on underperformance and PIPs are now the go to wherever it occurs.

Flinty997

People do lots of courses lots of qualifications. They learn nothing from them as they just need to tick that box.

Karlos77

Do you think they will ever get rid of flexi time in the civil service.

I am going for Ap and the downside is lack of flexi time.

square ball

It's not available to anyone in my Department that works remotely at the minute. Will you be working full time in the office at AP level?

I miss the Flexi days but the option to work from home is saving me over 2 hours commuting time per day.

Hard to see it being completely removed for staff full time in the office but may be not be as flexible with less staff availing of it.