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Schools and Covid 19 (part 5) **Mod warnings in OP**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭political analyst




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    The Supreme Court is the place for constitutional challenges.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Any word on compliance among pupils and teachers in secondary schools so far?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Not an interpretation. That's what the Bunreacht says:

    Art 42.1: The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭political analyst


    It's the place for final decisions on such challenges. Presumably, the challenge would be commenced in the High Court.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,463 ✭✭✭History Queen




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Indeed. After all, pupils whose parents won't get them to wear masks and thus undergo home schooling instead would be in a position no worse than what those pupils who have to stay at home because of serious health problems (e.g. cystic fibrosis) are in during the pandemic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,463 ✭✭✭History Queen


    I'm in secondary. Can only speak for my own experiences and those I've heard from colleagues in other schools. Compliance is good, some reminders needed to get students (amd some teachers) to keep noses covered and occasionally we need to provide masks to students who break/wet/lose their own. I have two students in my tutor group who have sensory issues and their parents rang us looking to find a solution on masks. Initally they wore visors but when we switched to masks only following advice that visors weren't adequate we set up plans for these students.

    One got a "mask break pass" which they presented to the teacher when they needed to go outside and get a break from their mask, the other mother was really proactive with trial and error of different types of mask and eventually found one her son could happily tolerate. That student was also offered a mask break pass but he felt he didn't need it. First student rarely uses her pass these days.


    Management in our school has been very proactive about encouraging us to take students outside for 5 min mask breaks as the need arises and we take a "remind not reprimand" approach to correct mask wearing etiquette.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    By the way, I think kids wearing masks in primary school is awful and another example of NPHET nonsense, but I just don't see it as the constitutional hurdle the government will fall on.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,368 ✭✭✭bladespin


    MasteryDarts Ireland - Master your game!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    well firstly you cannot know that for sure but secondly and more importantly , a person aged fifteen is at a very different stage of development to someone who is five or six



  • Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭M_Murphy57



    Why would we even need a legal challenge? This isn't the law, this is advice from a tosspot civil servant.


    If they want to exclude kids from school, they can get up to phoenix park and make miggeldy sign his name to a law.


    Until then it's advice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,463 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Good point, only speaking from my own experience. I'm not aware of any secondary schools it caused issues in. Are you?


    A five or six year old isn't being asked to wear a mask. But while you raise comparisons, an 11 or 12 year old at primary is at a similar developmental stage to a 12 or 13 year old at secondary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭lulublue22


    not all secondary students are 15 and no 5 or 6 year is expected to wear a mask. Majority of 3rd class will be 9 - with the odd 8 year old turning 9 during the school year.


    Masks in primary school appear to be a highly emotive polarising topic but to be fair the gap is 9 years old vs 12 year olds ( 1st year ) - so 3 years give or take not 10.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Only a matter of time before all primary school going kids are expected to wear them ( if compliance high for nine upwards), only a fool could not expect it



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,463 ✭✭✭History Queen


    So you're arguing against something that hasn't even happened now? What else is "going to happen "?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭political analyst


    A principal in Dublin said that schools don't know whether pupils are allowed to take their masks off during breaktime.

    If secondary pupils are allowed to take theirs off during breaktime, it stands to reason that primary pupils will be allowed to do the same.



  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭alentejo


    The big issue with masks for primary kids is that mid February will become end of term and will persist next year.

    Very uneasy and unhappy about the masks in primary, however would go along with it for now, however want continuous reviews by government. They should not become the norm



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭lulublue22


    Nice one personal insult when your faulty assertion is highlighted - whether you feel masks will be introduced throughout primary school is irrelevant - gov has announced masks for 3rd class up - 9 years old - again not 10 years of a developmental difference. If you are anti- mask for primary school children so be it - thats your own opinion - we are still not asking 5 & 6 year olds to wear masks and your assertion re developmental difference is factually incorrect rubbish to try and prove your view point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,463 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Of course they'll be able to take them off, how will they eat otherwise? Some common sense needs to apply.


    Edit: aimed at that principal not at you political analyst



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    probably coercive measures to encourage vaccination of all kids over the next six months to a year



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    not personal , I view anyone as an idiot to believe it wont be extended to all school going primary kids in due course


    young primary school kids have far less impulse or emotional control than persons say fifteen , that is a fact , they can endure far less restrictive practices , its why we expect junior cert students to sit quiet during class where as junior infants can be a lot less regimental



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭lulublue22


    Perhaps my post wasn’t clear - as no 5 & 6 year olds are being asked to wear masks there is not a 10 year developmental difference between those children in primary school ( 3rd class ) and those children in secondary school 1st years ( 12 year olds ) so your 10 year developmental difference point is moot. It is 3 yrs . Are you arguing that a 9 year old is so developmentally delayed in comparison to a 12 year old that they are incapable of wearing a mask ? We all know that masks are painful that is not the same thing as being developmentally unable to wear them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭robfowler78


    What’s wrong with this isn’t the wearing of the masks weather you agree or not it’s the fact that this was announced as advice but is in fact been forced on people. It’s like mandatory vaccination is not a thing but you can’t go or do anything without a vaccination cert. These are stealth ways of forcing people to do things.

    what amazes me is how easily people go along with it. The government are very weak here in my mind MM just waiting to cover his own ass and blame Tony eventually as he rides of with his pension.

    Im vaccinated I’ll put the masks on and toe the line but I really feel sorry for anybody who needs medical treatment or any health service in the future because it’s not going to be available long waiting list etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 523 ✭✭✭Infoseeker1975


    If masks are needed for 8/9yrs to stem the numbers in hospital, then the CMO and/or government should logically explain this.

    As adults we can book a restaurant for 2 hours and spend most of that time talking and not eating, all without a mask.

    Why let people know late on a Tuesday for it to be implemented on a Wednesday, give some forewarning so we can discuss and explain this to our kids as to why it is needed or not depending on your viewpoint.

    At the beginning we were all told not to handle the masks and guidance was given on how to put the mask on and off.

    Now we have 8/9 yr olds having to wear a mask tomorrow who have in most cases never worn one and how many times in the day will it be handled, taking on or off, etc.

    For me the mental aspect of this on kids is a big issue; I know people say kids are flexible but 2 of my 3 kids are so angry tonight that they have to wear a mask tomorrow, this of course might change in a few weeks or months of wearing the masks but it is so frustrating the timeline of how the government handle this and how they apply it without guidance, timelines to prepare, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭robfowler78


    But you see Tony and Co. announced it last week it’s been all over the media it’s just the people who believed MM when he said it was advice. Again they pulled the rug out from under people with this stealth enforcement of things.

    I can’t for the life of me work out why they can’t just be up front and take the flack. It’s all cloak and dagger that’s what I think really has people annoyed.

    If it was more up front people might by into it more. Let’s face it the schools will be full tomorrow of kids wearing masks and all will be forgotten next week as we move onto the next idea that pops into their heads to try quell a virus in winter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    perhaps i should make clear that i oppose mask wearing in secondary schools too

    i also repeat what i said earlier , junior infants will be expected to mask up in a matter of months , why would they stop at nine year olds ? , no reason why a kid in fourth class is any more contagious than a five year old



  • Registered Users Posts: 523 ✭✭✭Infoseeker1975


    Yes, it is likely you will be right about it being less news worthy next week as we are so compliant.

    I had to collect 2 items today and in both shops the person had the mask on but not over their nose. Then, I went to Super Valu, the man had the mask on and he pulled it down when asking for a specific cake:)

    Personally, I would struggle to wear a mask for 5.5hrs straight so I wish all the teachers out there the best of luck tomorrow. Also, trying to understand what my 10 yr says is tricky at times, with a mask on, I would not even bother trying - one positive for him is the teacher will likely stop asking him questions once he works that out!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,606 ✭✭✭pah


    I can sit for up to 3 hours in a cinema with a total stranger each side of me, no mask.


    Masking primary school kids is ridiculous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭robfowler78


    My own personal view is masks are a benefit but only when used correctly and are actually sterile as such. But all through this pandemic the vast majority of people have been using them incorrectly as in touching them, using the same one over and over, pulling them out of their pockets or leaving them in handbags or cars. I would wager that they have actually not help as much as people think in the real world. But then What do I know🤷



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    irish people absolutely hate not going along with what is declared the " right thing to do "



  • Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭robfowler78


    We sure do it’s just boggles my mind and infairness it’s not just an Irish thing at the moment it just seems to me that we are handing over very important rights etc very easy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    well I havent been to every country but we are far and away the biggest followers of whatever is respectable Ive ever encountered



  • Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭robfowler78


    Its all about been seen to do something. At the end of the day lockdown of some sort is happening I’d say Jan -Feb we will see hospitality and pubs in some form of lockdown. I think we will open up quicker this time as the money is gone. People won’t sit at home for €203 euro….



  • Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭hesaidshesaid


    A few points on primary schools at the moment;

    1. Covid is everywhere and the testing delays mean that we have kids and teachers out for much longer than necessary. They should be fast tracked for testing, particularly the teachers, purely because classes have to close if teachers aren’t available.
    2. Think about who pays for masks…. Parents. No extra cost to government. Schools have been told they should have extra supplies if a child forgets theirs. No idea who’s paying for that, it’s not like schools are flush with cash.
    3. Absolute bullshit sending this info on masks to principals at 5.15pm and telling them it’s to be enforced tomorrow.
    4. Measures that might actually help like contact tracing and HEPA air filters will cost the government money so they’ve abandoned them. In an unpublished paper for NPHET back in September, Prof. Martin Cormican came out and said we needed to move away from the ‘medicalisation of society’. Fair enough, except that our health service stumbles along at the best of times and cannot handle any kind of Covid surge. Anyway, among the recommendations were to discourage testing of under 13s - hence the abandonment of contact tracing in primary schools… now we see where that’s left us. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/covid-19-nphet-paper-envisages-change-to-more-normal-testing-system-1.4671986
    5. Air Filtration: There was a committee set up to advise government on this called ‘Expert group on the role of ventilation in reducing transmission of Covid 19’ - people like Prof. John Wenger and Asst. Prof. Orla Hegarty were on it. You can see that he was advising awareness of ventilation back in August here; https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40354085.html. Orla H resigned eventually when she realised gov were not really interested in their recommendations, one of which was that HEPA filters should be used in crowded, badly ventilated spaces ie. schools. The Irish Examiner has recently reported on this, you’ll see that the Dept of Ed recommends that schools use the Emergency Works grant to fix any ventilation issues. This is a long drawn out and unnecessarily complex process, one which principals frankly don’t have the time for while firefighting endless Covid cases among kids and staff. Quite apart from this, it’s almost impossible to get builders and building supplies at the moment. https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40755462.html
    6. ’The advice we have from the HSE’s expert group is that they (HEPA filters) are not required’ - Stephen Donnelly on Claire Byrne yesterday. The group he’s referring to is a totally different group called AMRIC (Antimicrobial Resistance and Infection Control) which focuses on hospital transmission. They are not experts on ventilation, or on schools. Guess who is on that group? Prof. Martin Cormican. Are we seeing a pattern?
    7. That said, I have heard reports that teachers who have bought their own air filters say that you still need some of the windows open to keep the CO2 monitor in the green range. So they’re not a silver bullet, but they would mean we would be working in less Baltic conditions.
    8. People underestimate kids. Most of them can wear masks no problem, even the infants. Yes they’ll touch them and take them off and whatever, but mask-wearing helps to reduce aerosol spread so it will likely help to reduce transmission to some degree. I had 24 kids present today (5th class) and 22 wore masks and just got on with it. Masks are not great, it’s hard to hear through them, facial expressions are lost etc. I think it’s massively unfair that kids are saddled with this considering government and Public Health pushed the ‘schools are safe’ farce for so long and now refuse to engage with other measures. But here we are, and teachers and parents and most importantly, kids want schools open, and government have to be seen to be doing something to combat the rise in infections, so masks it is.
    9. But how very **** it is for kids to be told, wear masks to school and no play dates etc for now purely because the adults in government wouldn’t listen to those in schools who have been telling them since Sept 2020 that schools are not safe and that realistic measures were needed.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,914 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    An excellent post.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,789 ✭✭✭the corpo


    Would love to know why Stephen Donnelly is so against HEPA filters. Does he think they're going to become sentient, SKYNET style? Or is he afraid of Daleks?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Because they'd have to pay for them and they don't want to. So it's much easier to put the burden on the kids and their parents through masks. It's awful.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    He doesn't want to pay for them. It is actually as simple as that



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,789 ✭✭✭the corpo


    I dunno, I'd say they could be Daleks... wake up, sheeple




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,047 ✭✭✭appledrop


    Wow hesaidshesaid, all I can say is take a bow an outstanding post👏



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,563 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    On the day the government magic up 2 billion for mansions in donegal??


    They always find the money if its good for votes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,047 ✭✭✭appledrop


    The clean air in classrooms seriously needs to be addressed.

    We have had an exceptionally mild + dry autumn.

    However as we all know, the worst of weather in Ireland is usually Jan-Mar and last year schools were closed during this time.

    There is no way we can keep all windows + doors open in depths of winter in order to get those monitors to turn green.

    We would be warmer on I'm a celebrity!

    Pre Covid every 2nd person would get sick around Christmas/ January and trolley numbers in hosiptials go off the scale.

    Sitting in a freezing classroom shivering is not going to lead to healthy immune systems that can fight Covid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭grumpyperson


    Does anyone know if it's 9 years up or just those in 3rd class, i.e. would an 8 year old in 3rd class have to mask up?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Don't put masks on them, the schools won't refuse entry if enough parents push back



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  • Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭Pepsirebel


    That's the problem though....enough won't.

    If the entire country took a "blue flu" day (apologies to the gardai 😉) would our government take notice or how we feel....wishful thinking I know



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Irish people value appearing respectable above all else



  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭grumpyperson


    Not in favour of this. I've gone with the guidelines, got vaccinated, stayed in my 2km when asked etc. but this is too much.

    If anyone interested, petition here.

    www.change.org/p/dr-tony-holohan-no-to-covid19-masks-for-children-in-irish-primary-school/



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Because they cost money and they blew the budget on poxy hand sanitizer last September. So open windows and force masks on children is our whole Covid education policy.

    As Professor Paul Moynagh pointed out on prime time, the mask issue is just an irrelevant smokescreen for the much bigger issue of ventilation. The goal for NPHET/Government is hoping masking kicks ventilation to touch for another few months.

    There have been teachers, principals, parents screaming for adequate ventilation measures since day one of this. Completely ignored in favour of the cheapo solutions.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭Pepsirebel


    Maybe it's time to change. Everyone had their price & this codollogy on all kids with this should be ours! Enough, it's time to shout STOP.

    No wonder the brits stuck around for so long, it's only when our great grandparents said no more did we rid them. They would be sickened by what they are seeing today.

    I'm not a nationalist at all just trying to think when, we as irish people actually stood up for what we believed in and to protect our kids

    Apologies, a bit ranty !!!



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