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Murder at the Cottage | Sky



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yes he absolutely could. I suppose I'm struggling to imagine Harris actually wants to get to the bottom of all this, and expose all the layers of corruption... We can only hope.

    Dwyer and the bantry detective were both from Kerry. Nuff said.

    I have heard rumours of a link to the Kerry babies with this case and the gardai involved, but it literally is just local rumour, I have nothing to substantiate it whatsoever.

    Imagine tho....

  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    I am not, in this context, speculating around what might have been the reason for the killing unlike someone like @tinytobe who persists with the idea that everything is equally valid and so appears to want to muddy the waters continuously, in the same breath speaking about top level cover-up and this randy Guard nonsense.

    The kind of big busts the top brass are interested in don't usually mean local police are in on the kind of coordinated activity that takes place. There may be a number of reasons they want to keep them in the dark. There is a high probability that Sophie was part of, or a victim of, some operation organised at a high level which we can suspect due to subsequent evidence in the high court and how politicians in the Dail said that at a diplomatic(meaning secret) level, the French were given assurances as regards the investigation.

  • Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    25 years on, it's unlikely to prove police corruption and Harris will probably only involve himself if there is a good chance of success, - he'd have a motivation, pinning the success on himself. Otherwise, it's difficult, it's like trying to prove that a bent referee in a football match has been match rigging and that 25 years later.

    The only possible breakthrough I could imagine is some new DNA evidence which wasn't investigated back then. It'll be the only conclusive proof of anything and even then, it's probably to say without doubt where the DNA was found like whether a particular piece of clothes belonged to Bailey or Alfie or somebody else, etc.... The rest is only some form of cold case profiling, like they did with the Jack the Ripper case in London.

    Regarding the speculation whether her husband, Daniel Toscan du Plantier had hired a contract killer to kill his wife: I find the motivation for the murder very very high, as a lot of money for her husband was at stake, but also he would have had to hire somebody, had the the contacts, and also a substantial amount of money would have to have exchanged hands. I would largely presume her husband's financial ongoings and possible financial irregularities was well investigated by police, only grey area would probably have been some secret bank account in say Switzerland, or so.....

    Also, if the cause of murder was only sexual rejection of one single Guard, the whole local police would certainly not have covered up for him and his sexual follies. The cover up served a larger group of Guards, not just one of them, putting drug trafficking and Sophie seeing and knowing something pretty high up in regarding what was likely and what not.

    I don't think this case is in any way connected to the Kerry Babies. There is always a lot of talk and rumors in rural places. Back in 1997 the police even built on that, public opinion in that rural community was sort of split whether it was Bailey or somebody else. They just had to incriminate Bailey a bit more, and a majority believed it, that's just my suggestion.

    Well, keeping everything equally valid would keep an open mind to all the options. And yes, it's all speculation.

  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    You are happy to agree ad nauseam with every theory since we supposedly have no reason to suggest that certain things are so persuasive they are beyond reasonable doubt. As if having an 'open mind' is somehow the most reasonable position and not precisely the way the powers that be would like people to think. Too many senior Gardai have given barely credible evidence in court for it to be a coincidence but this is a detail of equal importance as the evidence by someone like Marie Farrell, in your portrayal of the case. That is absurd, so what's your game really? Don't answer, I already know.

  • Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    The thing is your asking a question, but not wanting an answer.

    Just to help you understand, there is no game or not "my game".

    It's a murder with a lot of lose ends, a lot of motives and possibilities and an obviously incompetent police force.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭ crackcrack30

    The guards went hard and heavy on some (with little evidence)

    The guards went easy on others (with little exculpatory evidence)

    The guards took advice and sometimes direction from others (without looking at them or the source its self)

    The guards I'm sure everyone will agree were guilty of gross incompetence at least , some think more..

    Gross Incompetence by the Gardai has made this case appear complicated or unsolvable, even supernatural to others 'white witches and international drug gangs'

    Irish murder ....Who had issues with Sophie.... who had contacts with Sophie..... who saw Sophie last, open minds, simple police work.

    International/ french connection...... Forget about it, it will be never solved... carried out with precision, three steps removed from everything.

    I go with the first.

  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    "The guards I'm sure everyone will agree were guilty of gross incompetence at least" This is Bullshit of the highest order. It never happens. It is the lazy excuse wheeled out every time something unseemly happens in any area of public service. The modern phrase is 'systemic failure'. Is it really credible that people who are able to connive their way to the cushiest, financially rewarding state jobs are guilty of incompetence again and again?

    This investigation has been highly competent because of the outcome, which is all that matters. If it looks like Keystone cops all the better, as the dumb public lap it up. It's a lesson to people in the UK who would plant evidence in order to get convictions. The fall guy, Bailey, is only convicted in the public eye with the Guards winking at us saying 'trust us, we know things we can't say' since we have an honest legal system unlike the dastardly Brits. Result! No trial, so no embarrassing revelations, yet we have our man. Beautiful!

    Keeping us all safe is a dirty business occasionally and we can't handle the truth. But whether we can or not we won't be tested in this case.

    "The Freedom of Information Act was passed on April 21, 1997, and came into effect a

    year to the day later, on April 21, 1998. That Act was considered ‘ground breaking

    legislation’ because one of its primary aims was to change the culture of secrecy that

    had existed in Ireland, and to empower citizens..."

    We learned in Bailey's high court case that the statute of limitations meant that 1996 might as well have been 1796.

    Something was going on in Dunmanus in 1996 and it was all covered by the Official Secrets Act. All you have to do is figure it out...

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    For someone who constantly says that we are all speculating and all speculation is valid, you are ever quick to dismiss others opinions.

    You say English isn't your first language, so I'm assuming you aren't irish, nor familiar with the culture here? You have clearly NO idea the lengths Gards go to in order to protect one of their own. This isn't an isolated case, go and read up about the McBreartys in Donegal which happened just 2 months before Sophies murder, then come back here. It was undoubtedly a garda who caused the hit and run up there, not even a particularly high up one: yet a whole family was targeted for murder and terrorised for years, until they got a private investigator and proved it was a hit and run by getting the body exhumed. TWICE.

    This is what Ian Bailey is up against. And all of us, actually, unless things change. There's absolutely no need for your "it must be a high up conspiracy" talk when we have several examples of it happening on ground level in Ireland.

    Sure, dismiss the kerry babies link, there's no proof. But nothing would bloody surprise me at this stage.

    Just don't come over all authoritarian with your opinions then accuse others of not accepting your speculations. It works both ways.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on

  • Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    By the sounds of it you have a problem with me, so I'd rather you'd send me a personal message, not bore others with your kind of talk, and certainly not if it doesn't concern the case. I also don't recall using "conspiracy" in my posts.

    What I am certainly not aware of is if this is or was an isolated case of police corruption or if there were more. I also had little experience with the Guards back in the 90ies, but the kind of experience I've had with them back then, wasn't exactly that they were very comptent and many appeared to me as if becoming a Guard was because they had no other career options, were physically fit and needed a solid income. Sorry, if that's offensive, but that's how I recall the situation back then. I also recall the saying "If you want help you call the Guards, if you don't want help you call the Guards" The issues you're describing probably fits the situation best.

    I'd say that Sophie was probably not knowledgeable on the lack of competence of the Guards, and trusted them, probably she thought they were as good as in Paris, - and she was very wrong.

    I bet one thing, than none of the bent Guards in the investigation of Sophie ever gotten disciplined, or fired from the job. Coercing somebody to lie in a court of law or supplying somebody with drugs should have triggered a full blown investigation in any civilized police force.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    No problem with you personally, no, just responding to your posts on here.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,470 ✭✭✭ OwlsZat

    The point is that the lady got killed the night the only state pathologist was on his birthday night out. Its almost too perfect.

  • Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    I'd say that's more a conspiracy theory.

    The killer would have to have more than some kind of planning. Knowledge that there was only one state pathologist, and it's exactly him who will be called out to South West Cork upon Sophie's murder, one could have known that if one had inside information.

    And then there is the coordination when Sophie would visit Ireland at the same time, or possibly luring her to come to Ireland, look after something around the house, like fix the heating, etc.... - it's not impossible, but a bit too much in planning, considering how much the collusion of the local police went so incompetently wrong.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭ crackcrack30

    No disrespect to Guards ... I know a few .. but back in the 'Day' his/her father/uncle was a guard , Im over 5'9... so I'll be a Guard... nine yes Nine months later ..hey presto they give you the cap.

    If you are lucky enough to get into an urban center you might get to appreciate a bit of anti-social and organised/personal crime..

    If you stay out in the sticks its doley doggers , drink driving , gun licences and saturday night pubs ETC. ...

    West cork was the sticks.. The local/ regional guards were not nearly ready for anything like what happened. Rather than good interviewing , intelligence gathering, diligence and good police work they focused their efforts on rumors, diversions fear and confusion ... panic... incompetence.

    To back up or cover up for colleagues above or below in matters of scams, informants, 'adultery/sheep rustling' is one thing but murder is a whole other ballgame, ball park , galaxy..... and pure fantasy to me..

    How many other state backed/ sponsored murders happened along the Irish coast that month, year, decade or even since?

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,411 ✭✭✭ Yurt2

    When you think about it, the minimum height requirements for AGS were utterly bizarre and it was crazy that they lasted for so long (not abolished until 2001).

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭ saabsaab

    I don't agree nothing like a big Guard to quieten a few rowdies. Saw this myself and I doubt that a guy of 5 7" could achieve the same effect.

  • Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    I wasn't aware of all the issues with the Garda in Ireland.

    I am just thinking, suppose if I was like Sophie, owned a house for a vacation in rural SW Cork, and called the Guards if I'd seen repeated activity of drug trafficking in the area. And then if I'd only been given lame excuses and no further action by the Guards, what would I have done next?

    If the local Guards were in it as well, it would ultimately have been my own life which would have been at stake. They would have to have gotten rid of me no matter if I lived there permanently or not.....

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭ saabsaab

    If that were true wouldyou not leave some details/evidence to be opened in the event of my death. Strange for a documentary maker/journalist not to record what might be happening?

  • Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    Apparently, there was a diary, which was missing. Not certain, if it's ever been located.

    I'd guess that Sophie was totally oblivious to the possibility of police incompetence in Ireland, thus nothing of that sort you mentioned was kept. And if so, it would have most likely have been in France in her home. Don't know if somebody ever looked for something like that in Sophie's home in France?

    But it's a good point and would be a good line of enquiry.

  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    There is nothing strange about the lack of information on Sophie or her house. Any activity around the house or problems internally don't appear to have been mentioned to her family or friends, her husband only visited once and had nothing to say about it. Alfie and Shirley heard nothing. We know very little about Sophie really, despite gushing profiles from people like Lara Marlowe she doesn't appear to have been particularly successful as a writer or documentary maker. I don't believe she was the kind to go running to the cops about drug dealers, she was from Paris where people tend to be worldly.

    It seems the conviction of Bailey in France wasn't hampered by the connections her family has with the French 'establishment'. Lara Marlowe wrote in 1997 ;

    "Press reports portray Mr Toscan du Plantier as a personal friend of French President Jacques Chirac, and there has been speculation that justice officials will pay special attention to his case for this reason. Mr Toscan du Plantier is a very important person in France," Mr Spilliaert said."

    Sophie could have been working with the French police for all we know.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭ saabsaab

    For a person in that business it is a bit strange all the things yoiu mention are a little odd. Nothing, Nada. perhaps she had notes or a diary that was stolen seems very possible.

  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    Dear diary, I met some baddies😎 today in Goleen.......

    I'm not convinced🙂

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭ saabsaab

    Dear Diary,

    I have noticed some late night traffic through my property, a car sometimes a 4 wheel drive heads up and seems to be collecting/delivering something. I must watch out tonight and take the regs. in case it is needed.

  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    That sounds like something from Enid Blyton. I loved the Famous Five.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭ saabsaab

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭ chooseusername

    So the stars were aligned that night.

    Pathologist drunk at his birthday party.

    Right guards on duty.

    Full moon.

    Sophie happened to be in residence.

    Alfie and Shirley stoned.

    What could possiblie go wrong?

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,470 ✭✭✭ OwlsZat

    Yes madam of the booze agrees whole heartedly. Why would he have the protection of AGS?

  • Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    There are so many unanswered questions in this case.

    Suppose, it wasn't one killer but two or more? One lured her to open the door, then hit her with that poke and the other one with the cavity block after she'd been chased to the gate. Also this could have been possible.

    The blood stain on the door and the blood on the gates would indicate that she was hit twice. Also if the killer returned to the house to clean up, he'd hardly missed that stain on the door.

    Myself I tend to rather focus on the motive and on the known events that happened thereafter to consider what may have happened.

    Most likely this murder case will remain a mystery.

    Myself and anybody can be totally wrong on this, but most people, I have known who owned holiday homes in a foreign country kept all the records about the ownership, deeds, contracts and ongoing communication with management companies, etc.. at their main residence. In Sophie's case this would have been at her home in France.

    After her death these records would have fallen into the hands of her husband, and upon his death, into the hands of her son. Judging by the way her son behaved and felt ( he even kept Sophie's coat hanging in the same place, at least according to the documentary ) he would also have kept any records on the house, - certainly the important ones, deeds, solicitor's letters, etc... but most likely also the non important notes.

    If there was a diary and if that diary was missing, I'd say only her son would be able to confirm that.

    Other than Sophie's son, I'd say only the caretaker may have some insight, - don't know if the caretaker from back in 1997 is still alive today.

    Post edited by tinytobe on

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  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    "Press reports portray Mr Toscan du Plantier as a personal friend of French President Jacques Chirac, and there has been speculation that justice officials will pay special attention to his case for this reason. Mr Toscan du Plantier is a very important person in France," Mr Spilliaert said."

    Did justice officials in France pay special attention to this case? Oui ou non? How would they go about it?

This discussion has been closed.