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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,698 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01


    These are the key question for Drew Harris to consider:

    At such an early stage of the investigation, why was it deemed Ian Bailey did it lock, stock and barrel?? Especially without one shred of evidence?

    Without any evidence against Bailey, why were the Gards allowed to coerce witnesses?

    Leo Bolger & Alfie Lyons basically got off scot free for their part in a well organised drugs ring - How did that happen?

    The whole Maria Farrell saga - From start to finish, up to and including the £500K property she accrued with the help of the Gards.

    The blatant disregard to follow other credible leads.

    A poster previously stated that the Guards had it in for Bailey from day one.. If this is true, the Country should hang it's head in utter shame. I expect (and believe) we are a much better nation than that.

    However.. the shenanigans of the investigation does not rule out that theory. (If anything it supports it).

    I honestly cannot comprehend, that an entire murder investigation would be clouded by it's contempt for one individual. Even the thought of it would stand your neck hairs on end...

    But anybody taking a step back and looking at the case, would struggle to see anything other than a modern day witch hunt.

    If you can accept that Bailey wasn't targeted because he was a pompous blow in with an irritating manner, then what other reason would warrant such unbridled attention?

    Was there an immediate fear, that Bailey as a sharp investigative journalist was on to something?? That he could blow the lid off some nefarious activity going on in the area, an activity that Sophie had seen / heard?

    It always bothered me that the Guards raided the studio and took all Bailey's diaries away.. Why? Did they want to know how much he knew? What about the missing diaries from Sophie's cottage..? A bit coincidental isn't it?? She never travelled without her journals?

    Drew Harris needs to get his wellies on and start wading through this proverbial BS... What we know is only the very tip of the iceberg.

    There must have been a reason to persue Bailey from the get go.. He was one of many unusual characters to inhabit West Cork at the time. The difference with Bailey was, he had his nose in everything, and had no fear of the Guards, and when he wore his investigative journalist hat, he seen the job through to the end... and the brutal murder of Sophie had him on a high, he even stated this case would be the making of him.. You can rest assured, no stone, nor corrupt Guard would be left unturned...

    Was this the reason to take swift action against Bailey.. Take him down, before he takes us down?

    Over to you Drew...



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    It has to be asked why such a senior police officer as Ted Murphy, head of the Garda National Drugs Unit (GNDU), was seconded to the investigation when there were already some senior officers on the case.

    All hypothetical of course, I would think there was clearance at the highest level for some activity that went wrong and resulted in Sophie's death. Bailey walked into something he initially found exciting but has ever since rued the day. He was the perfect patsy and again, this would have been cleared at the highest level.

    Of what benefit would an explanation of what was really going on be to Drew Harris and the Gardai? Zero. They've other fish to fry.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Good Post.

    See, i don't think it was authorised at a higher level than Dermot Dwyer, but I agree otherwise.

    You have to look at his back story because it gives some perspective to how this could have happened; fresh out of the absolute feck up that was the Fred Flannery case, Dwyer gets relocated to west cork, hanging his head in shame, only to be super over the biggest murder case to hit rural West cork, probably ever. Now, we've seen from his dealings in the Flannery case, that his pattern of work was shady to say the least, but in that instance it backfired on him and a guilty man went free and subsequently committed suicide and justice could never be done.

    Imagine Dwyer, knowing it was one of his boys who killed Sophie but had to cover up for a fellow kerryman, yet desperate for a conviction to save his reputation and career.... Along comes Bailey... All his dreams came true! An ideal suspect in every way, except actual evidence and proving they knew each other. So then came the relentless mission to make the suspect fit the crime.

    Fitzgerald was part of it, without a doubt, and a couple of others. I'd say the lower rank lads weren't happy but what could they do except follow orders and keep the peace.

    speculation, of course. But this is my most likely scenario.

    I'll dig out the article later about Dwyer /Flannery

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    So Ted Murphy was just making coffee for the boys?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The thing is, all this happened, when Drew Harris wasn't in office, thus one could believe that he would have a neutral approach, - that is if there was ever a proper investigation into this.

    The investigation is not so much who did it, but how did the police handle the matter, - that is if there is nothing to convict anybody on the murder. I was also not aware that Marie Farrell got a 500 K property out of this? Did the Guards pay for this? I couldn't even imagine that this happened?

    In the end, I always suggested that the Guards went to such great length to coerce, to cover up and collude that there must have been a very strong motive for that, automatically leading to the speculation that the Guards were in on it in some way, possibly drugs? We all don't know.

    I would also find it hard to believe that several local Guards would cover up for just one guy ( the often mentioned "horny Guard from Bantry" ) who just had a personal sexual interest in Sophie, it must have been something bigger and involved more individuals than just one guy to go to those lengths.

    Also 1997 was a very different place, way less transparent than things are today, Ireland was also a very different society than it was today, even more so the South West of the country, also there was not internet as widespread as it is today where online discussions could take place and others could read in on it as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Drew Harris will have a 'neutral approach'? I believe he served in NI. No doubt he'll be influenced by the regular admissions of collusion with criminal elements by state forces, when they've grown a conscience following unnecessary investigations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01



    So, Maria Farrell and the brood hot legged it from England on the back of a defrauding the Social Welfare caper...

    They settled in West Cork, where they were basically untraceable to the British authorities.

    Having five kids, a small business, and a troubled past, money was very tight.

    Then Sophie happened.

    For whatever reasons (still cloudy to this day), Maria Farrell embedded herself full on into the investigation with her Fiona phone calls...

    As the Guards took an interest in her, and Dwyer thanked God for answering his prayers.. The sallow skinned stranger with a peaked beret that Farrell had reported, had morphed into the six foot four local Ian Bailey. Dwyer's redemption was all but complete..

    Just a few more witness testimonies to wrap up, and the case was solved.

    Unfortunately, a pesky legal requirement was putting the celebrations on hold, the DPP was looking for some of that tricky evidence malarkey...

    Not to be downbeat about such a trivial matter like evidence, Dwyer employed the same method he had used with Maria...

    She had her 'no car insurance' offence sorted for her, and was most appreciative. Surly the boys looking at serious time for their drugs cultivation shenanigans would be just as appreciative..?

    So with the boys in line, Maria happy out, Dwyer on a roll... What could possibly go wrong??

    Well ..... Maria Farrell shown her true colours, her statements were the equivalent of toilet paper.. Bailey uncovered Maria Farrell's dishonest past. The ex soldier from England who was paid to get Bailey drunk and confess, sold his story to the gutter press (this is before the Bandon tapes were made scandal of the year)... Oh yeah.. Dwyer had another sh*tshow on his hands.

    How could things get any worse?? Well, honest Maria developed a conscience and rebuffed the Guards, blaming them for making her perjure herself, and God forbid, making a liar out of her... And to add to her distress, she further cited lewd acts being performed in the toilets by senior officers in an attempt to intimidate her (or excite her... take your pick here)

    So with the star witness jumping ships, and converting to a Bailey supporter (obviously seen the pound signs in Bailey's libel case), the loose cannon Farrell (or Fiona, which ever you prefer), became a threat to Dwyer and his motely bunch of keystone cops...

    She knew too much, she knew the extent of the corruption that was going on within the investigation at the time. She had already burnt her bridges as a witness against Bailey. And after the failed Bailey libel action, she was no more use to him either..

    All she had left, was a sensational story to sell to the Sunday rags...

    This couldn't be allowed to happen. Dwyer could deny it all, but with more and more collusion being uncovered every month, how could the force take on Marie Farrell in court without being annihilated by the press??

    Enter the kind Guard that could have a word in the right ear to get Marie Farrell and her family out of all this mess..

    'Look, we can put all this behind us, you deserve to get your life back with your Family. We can get you a nice upmarket pad, you can move away and live happily ever after. But to keep this half million gaff, you can't go around blabbing .... )

    And hence how Marie Farrell, Mother of five, lover to a Husband and Invisible man, left the cold shores of England (well, ran really), lied, connived and back stabbed her way to a £500,000 mansion..

    A modern day Cinderella no...????



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    So it's NI now? And his degree from Cambridge? You probably want to call him a loyalist bigot or some language like that ? I don't think that's the kind of correct attitude here.

    Just to clarify my statement, by "neutral approach" I meant that all these cover ups and collusions happed, when Drew Harris wasn't in office, thus he has no responsibility of the past wrong doings. As I've written before, just judging by the sheer amount of whiteness coercion, collusion and cover up the motive for the Guards for their behaviour must have been very high and the incompetence employed would point to something locally rather than something in Dublin.

    Sure all these questions should have been asked back in 1997 and the imminent following years, - 25 years onwards is a bit late, but at least it's better than nothing.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    You're forever getting the wrong end of the stick. The reference to Northern Ireland doesn't implicate him in anything. As a police officer he is far from innocent and like any police officer is NEVER neutral when bent coppers are being exposed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I have no experience how the police in Ireland investigate bent officers.

    When I recall 1997 and the time before the whole country appeared very unreliable to me, and the brain drain effect of emigration was very evident to me everywhere. Those who could emigrated, and those who stayed either had gotten a very safe job by whatever means and connections or were to dumb to understand anything. I am sorry if this sounds offensive, but it's how I personally perceived the country back then. It was not so much in Dublin, but very very evident in rural parts of the country.

    The whole Celtic tiger boom seemed to have changed Ireland totally, making it more a country to move to, rather than away from, - the only dip is probably the current housing crisis and the past financial crisis. But other than that, it's different today, more transparent, more professional and certainly socially changed, less influence by the catholic church, sexually more liberal, etc....

    The kind of collusion, witness coercion and cover-up in the Sophie' Toscan du Plantier murder case has a bit the trade mark of somebody with a limited mind which would fit right into that rural brain drain effect I described earlier. Or do you honestly think that "seeing a man at 3am in the morning, way far away from the murder site" could ever prove anything in a court of law? Or documented activity of the Guards giving a private citizen drugs and money and clothes to get close to Bailey? Also the reported and apparent missing of apparent key evidence?

    I am sure, if a bent Guard really wanted to implicate and frame Bailey beyond reasonable doubt, he could have done so and most likely with considerable ease, if he had had the brains. This would have happened without people like Marie Farrell or Martin Graham.

    And the awful thing is, nobody would have questioned anything, not back then, and probably not today.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    First sentence:

    Yeah, they don't. Herein lies the fundamental problem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Sorry to hear you were tied up in a shed in some midlands bog for most of the end of the 20th century. Why was Ted Murphy, head of the Garda National Drugs Unit(GNDU) seconded to this investigation? He would go on to play a prominent role in it



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The thing is, one just needs to think some thoughts: What would a bent Guard have done to implicate and frame somebody else? And let's say just for the exercise, a bent Guard killed Sophie?

    The bent Guard would have taken some kind of blunt instrument from Sophie's house, put a bit of Sophie's blood and hair on it, and placed it somewhere in or near Bailey's studio, - somewhere where he could have easy access to and there wasn't a possibility that rain could have washed anything away. This could not only have been a blunt instrument but also a piece of clothes, something he might have argued, Bailey had owned, and Bailey would in his defence only have said, that he never had owned that....but who would have believed that.

    What I am saying, is that assuming and speculating if a bent Guard killed Sophie, he didn't plan on planting evidence on somebody else. Why? Certainty that he himself didn't leave any traces? Or assuming that his incompetent colleagues wouldn't find anything? Or ability to get rid of certain evidence later on?

    So the idea on framing Bailey must have come later on? Why? That he was the unpopular Englishman in rural Ireland was known before....


    No idea? I am only guessing that the Guards were aware that drugs were part of the murder from day one? Or it never took a genius to figure that one out? Maybe Sophie made a complaint about drug activity with the Garda in Dublin, some kind of head office? However I doubt that the collusion went that high up to Dublin? - but not sure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    You require very little to head off into fantasy land. Planting a bloodied murder weapon on someone?

    The GNDU were making some big busts in the '90s and as we have established west Cork was long a particular area of interest. Then an apparently random murder occurs in west Cork and the HEAD of the GNDU is sent down from Dublin to effectively lead the investigation. He would later, in the high court, have to vigorously defend the manner in which he went about that investigation, a defence that appeared particularly weak in relation to Ian Bailey's second arrest.

    I don't know where counsel for Ian Bailey got their information that led to them asking a particular question but somehow I don't believe they were just chancing their arm ;

    "He (Ted Murphy) said he was not put under pressure from assistant commissioner Martin McQuinn to get Mr Bailey “locked up”."

    I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks it was decided at the highest level to cover things up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    And you require not only very little but nothing at all to describe my postings where I often enough mention speculations and "assuming that..." as fantasy land.

    As written so often before, we know very little to nothing at all.

    What we do know however is that the local Guards went to quite some length to coerce and to collude. Naturally this begs some questions as to why.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Honestly I feel like you two are actually in agreement with alot of things, I've no idea why yous keep arguing.

    There was no need to bring Northern Ireland into it either. There's been enough sectarian abuse on twitter from the trolls towards Ians NI supporters.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Article from May 1996 about Dwyer and the botched Flannery case. Sorry its illegible. Just wanted to share to follow up on my previous post about Dwyers background.




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Who says we're arguing. Also, English isn't exactly my first language, thus some things between the lines might be missed. Things which are said one way or the other easier face to face, where one can read the expressions as well, and then written drily in a forum.

    The thing is, none of us can be right or wrong, perhaps some users are missing that. None if it is about dreamland and fantasies, it's only speculative, based on the little things we know. In absence of decent evidence all we can look at is certain behaviours and motives by certain people or organizations.

    To me it looks very unlikely that any given big organization would cover up for just one single man, unless this man was very very high up. Now, in a rural police organisation, none are really high high up, so if they were covering up they weren't doing it for one guy, but for a couple more, say at least 3 or 4, being in on something together which is supposed to remain covered up. And this "something" would point in my speculation to possibly drugs. Sophie was known to have taken long hikes in the rural countryside on the peninsula, so the chances that she's seen something she shouldn't have is not impossible. Also, whoever was hiding the activities would probably have been surprised by Sophie's visit around Christmas, or didn't even expect her to be there at this time of the year. All not impossible speculations, and even mor so, if Leo Bolger or Alfie Lyons gotten off lightly for something around drugs.

    Regarding Harris, I am only aware that he is from NI, studied in Cambridge, has an OBE, previously with the RUC, and then came to Ireland after being appointed by the AGS. Wasn't his father killed by the IRA? Not certain? This would lead me to suggest he's not that liked in SF or strongly republican circles?

    Post edited by tinytobe on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    A lot of further questions would also keep coming up, like what about all the other theories we have: In the theory the husband Daniel Toscan du Plantier, hiring a hitman to kill his wife or her ex lover Bruno doing it himself or hiring somebody? Would in those cases the police have coerced and colluded the way they did?

    The thing, is one can't say the police didn't have a strong motive to act the way they did. And if they had motive, it wasn't just to cover for one single guy, it would have been more.

    Don't know if that gives you more understanding to my speculations. They covered up to protect 3 or 4 other locals. Who would have done the killing, we can only speculate again, maybe it was the "horny Guard from Bantry", maybe they coerced Alfie, it's just pure speculation.

    Post edited by tinytobe on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yes, I understand your speculations, and they are grand. I think most speculation is reasonable in a case like this tbh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The speculations could even go another step further. If the police were in it according to this speculative enquiry, and if either the Guard from Bantry did it, or they coerced somebody like Alfie to do it, they would have with utter certainty known the duty roster of the Guards for the next couple of days.

    The body would have been discovered at some point, either by Shirley, or by Sophie's housekeeper at the earliest, - as far as we know. And the officer or officers called out to the scene would have been the ones on duty that day or the following days with ample chances to mess up and miss or deliberately miss evidence and or DNA at the crime scene. This would have happened before anybody "untouchable" from Dublin would have arrived.

    So if Harris wants to investigate bent Guards, I'd start with those local Guards who were out at the scene that morning, and also with those who were later on investigating the case. Are still with the Garda? Are they retired by now?

    The rotten apple is somewhere down these lines. I'd also be interested to know how precisely they'd gotten the drugs for Martin Graham to get close to Bailey.



  • Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭kerry_man15


    Do you think that perhaps a shipment of drugs was being moved from the area (Alfie's) that morning and Sophie interrupted?



  • Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭kerry_man15


    So Detective Dwyer was involved in at least two high profile botched investigations in a short space of time...and yet he's so smug on the Netflix documentary, acting and talking like he's Clouseau. He seems fully convinced he got his man and outwitted Bailey, the guy is delusional.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    In the speculative case if drugs were shipped, than they would have arrived in an isolated harbour or some cove where they could land with a small boat, - off to the shore from a bigger yacht. If there was an "operation" they wouldn't have been so dumb to store something at Alfie's or move something in the area or along that driveway, where they were close to Sophie's. However they would certainly have been surprised by Sophie's visit before Christmas. Also given that everybody knew everybody on that peninsula, it would probably have been easy to figure out when Sophie would come to stay at her house and when not. So that visit before Christmas would have been a bit of a surprise, - other than to the caretaker, and possibly the Ungerers? I'd suggest Sophie didn't interrupt something, but she saw something she shouldn't, and it may not have been the first time.

    So, that's somebody Harris could look at closer, Dwyer. Why hasn't he so far? Did Dwyer know that particular Guard from Bantry? Were they close friends or worked together longer? Which other contacts and friends in the Guards did this Guard from Bantry have? Somebody must have the answers to this, in a rural community it's hard to keep secrets. And don't be fooled or blinded by somebody talking like Clouseau. However in today's world more attention to detail and looking beyond things is required, it's a society with a short attention span these days and Netflix wants to make money as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01



    Ian Bailey is doing two live stream gigs in January.

    The topic matter is poems and stories.

    At a fiver a pop, its great value.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yup.

    Yes he absolutely could. I suppose I'm struggling to imagine Harris actually wants to get to the bottom of all this, and expose all the layers of corruption... We can only hope.

    Dwyer and the bantry detective were both from Kerry. Nuff said.

    I have heard rumours of a link to the Kerry babies with this case and the gardai involved, but it literally is just local rumour, I have nothing to substantiate it whatsoever.

    Imagine tho....



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  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    I am not, in this context, speculating around what might have been the reason for the killing unlike someone like @tinytobe who persists with the idea that everything is equally valid and so appears to want to muddy the waters continuously, in the same breath speaking about top level cover-up and this randy Guard nonsense.

    The kind of big busts the top brass are interested in don't usually mean local police are in on the kind of coordinated activity that takes place. There may be a number of reasons they want to keep them in the dark. There is a high probability that Sophie was part of, or a victim of, some operation organised at a high level which we can suspect due to subsequent evidence in the high court and how politicians in the Dail said that at a diplomatic(meaning secret) level, the French were given assurances as regards the investigation.



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