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Murder at the Cottage | Sky



  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    If there wasn't another investigation after what was revealed in Bailey's high court action there will never be.

    I have two certainties from studying this case. Bailey had nothing to do with the murder and there was a Garda cover-up.

    In the case of the cover-up we will never find out why.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    If Harris is determined to get to the bottom of what went on instead of whitewashing it like every review since, then there's hope.

    Of course it was a cover up. Wether he will finally admit it or not is another thing.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,544 ✭✭✭ saabsaab

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  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    It has to be asked why such a senior police officer as Ted Murphy, head of the Garda National Drugs Unit (GNDU), was seconded to the investigation when there were already some senior officers on the case.

    All hypothetical of course, I would think there was clearance at the highest level for some activity that went wrong and resulted in Sophie's death. Bailey walked into something he initially found exciting but has ever since rued the day. He was the perfect patsy and again, this would have been cleared at the highest level.

    Of what benefit would an explanation of what was really going on be to Drew Harris and the Gardai? Zero. They've other fish to fry.

  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    So Ted Murphy was just making coffee for the boys?

  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    The thing is, all this happened, when Drew Harris wasn't in office, thus one could believe that he would have a neutral approach, - that is if there was ever a proper investigation into this.

    The investigation is not so much who did it, but how did the police handle the matter, - that is if there is nothing to convict anybody on the murder. I was also not aware that Marie Farrell got a 500 K property out of this? Did the Guards pay for this? I couldn't even imagine that this happened?

    In the end, I always suggested that the Guards went to such great length to coerce, to cover up and collude that there must have been a very strong motive for that, automatically leading to the speculation that the Guards were in on it in some way, possibly drugs? We all don't know.

    I would also find it hard to believe that several local Guards would cover up for just one guy ( the often mentioned "horny Guard from Bantry" ) who just had a personal sexual interest in Sophie, it must have been something bigger and involved more individuals than just one guy to go to those lengths.

    Also 1997 was a very different place, way less transparent than things are today, Ireland was also a very different society than it was today, even more so the South West of the country, also there was not internet as widespread as it is today where online discussions could take place and others could read in on it as well.

  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    Drew Harris will have a 'neutral approach'? I believe he served in NI. No doubt he'll be influenced by the regular admissions of collusion with criminal elements by state forces, when they've grown a conscience following unnecessary investigations.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    So it's NI now? And his degree from Cambridge? You probably want to call him a loyalist bigot or some language like that ? I don't think that's the kind of correct attitude here.

    Just to clarify my statement, by "neutral approach" I meant that all these cover ups and collusions happed, when Drew Harris wasn't in office, thus he has no responsibility of the past wrong doings. As I've written before, just judging by the sheer amount of whiteness coercion, collusion and cover up the motive for the Guards for their behaviour must have been very high and the incompetence employed would point to something locally rather than something in Dublin.

    Sure all these questions should have been asked back in 1997 and the imminent following years, - 25 years onwards is a bit late, but at least it's better than nothing.

  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    You're forever getting the wrong end of the stick. The reference to Northern Ireland doesn't implicate him in anything. As a police officer he is far from innocent and like any police officer is NEVER neutral when bent coppers are being exposed.

  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    I have no experience how the police in Ireland investigate bent officers.

    When I recall 1997 and the time before the whole country appeared very unreliable to me, and the brain drain effect of emigration was very evident to me everywhere. Those who could emigrated, and those who stayed either had gotten a very safe job by whatever means and connections or were to dumb to understand anything. I am sorry if this sounds offensive, but it's how I personally perceived the country back then. It was not so much in Dublin, but very very evident in rural parts of the country.

    The whole Celtic tiger boom seemed to have changed Ireland totally, making it more a country to move to, rather than away from, - the only dip is probably the current housing crisis and the past financial crisis. But other than that, it's different today, more transparent, more professional and certainly socially changed, less influence by the catholic church, sexually more liberal, etc....

    The kind of collusion, witness coercion and cover-up in the Sophie' Toscan du Plantier murder case has a bit the trade mark of somebody with a limited mind which would fit right into that rural brain drain effect I described earlier. Or do you honestly think that "seeing a man at 3am in the morning, way far away from the murder site" could ever prove anything in a court of law? Or documented activity of the Guards giving a private citizen drugs and money and clothes to get close to Bailey? Also the reported and apparent missing of apparent key evidence?

    I am sure, if a bent Guard really wanted to implicate and frame Bailey beyond reasonable doubt, he could have done so and most likely with considerable ease, if he had had the brains. This would have happened without people like Marie Farrell or Martin Graham.

    And the awful thing is, nobody would have questioned anything, not back then, and probably not today.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    First sentence:

    Yeah, they don't. Herein lies the fundamental problem.

  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    Sorry to hear you were tied up in a shed in some midlands bog for most of the end of the 20th century. Why was Ted Murphy, head of the Garda National Drugs Unit(GNDU) seconded to this investigation? He would go on to play a prominent role in it

  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    The thing is, one just needs to think some thoughts: What would a bent Guard have done to implicate and frame somebody else? And let's say just for the exercise, a bent Guard killed Sophie?

    The bent Guard would have taken some kind of blunt instrument from Sophie's house, put a bit of Sophie's blood and hair on it, and placed it somewhere in or near Bailey's studio, - somewhere where he could have easy access to and there wasn't a possibility that rain could have washed anything away. This could not only have been a blunt instrument but also a piece of clothes, something he might have argued, Bailey had owned, and Bailey would in his defence only have said, that he never had owned that....but who would have believed that.

    What I am saying, is that assuming and speculating if a bent Guard killed Sophie, he didn't plan on planting evidence on somebody else. Why? Certainty that he himself didn't leave any traces? Or assuming that his incompetent colleagues wouldn't find anything? Or ability to get rid of certain evidence later on?

    So the idea on framing Bailey must have come later on? Why? That he was the unpopular Englishman in rural Ireland was known before....

    No idea? I am only guessing that the Guards were aware that drugs were part of the murder from day one? Or it never took a genius to figure that one out? Maybe Sophie made a complaint about drug activity with the Garda in Dublin, some kind of head office? However I doubt that the collusion went that high up to Dublin? - but not sure.

  • Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭ mamboozle

    You require very little to head off into fantasy land. Planting a bloodied murder weapon on someone?

    The GNDU were making some big busts in the '90s and as we have established west Cork was long a particular area of interest. Then an apparently random murder occurs in west Cork and the HEAD of the GNDU is sent down from Dublin to effectively lead the investigation. He would later, in the high court, have to vigorously defend the manner in which he went about that investigation, a defence that appeared particularly weak in relation to Ian Bailey's second arrest.

    I don't know where counsel for Ian Bailey got their information that led to them asking a particular question but somehow I don't believe they were just chancing their arm ;

    "He (Ted Murphy) said he was not put under pressure from assistant commissioner Martin McQuinn to get Mr Bailey “locked up”."

    I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks it was decided at the highest level to cover things up.

  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    And you require not only very little but nothing at all to describe my postings where I often enough mention speculations and "assuming that..." as fantasy land.

    As written so often before, we know very little to nothing at all.

    What we do know however is that the local Guards went to quite some length to coerce and to collude. Naturally this begs some questions as to why.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    Honestly I feel like you two are actually in agreement with alot of things, I've no idea why yous keep arguing.

    There was no need to bring Northern Ireland into it either. There's been enough sectarian abuse on twitter from the trolls towards Ians NI supporters.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    Who says we're arguing. Also, English isn't exactly my first language, thus some things between the lines might be missed. Things which are said one way or the other easier face to face, where one can read the expressions as well, and then written drily in a forum.

    The thing is, none of us can be right or wrong, perhaps some users are missing that. None if it is about dreamland and fantasies, it's only speculative, based on the little things we know. In absence of decent evidence all we can look at is certain behaviours and motives by certain people or organizations.

    To me it looks very unlikely that any given big organization would cover up for just one single man, unless this man was very very high up. Now, in a rural police organisation, none are really high high up, so if they were covering up they weren't doing it for one guy, but for a couple more, say at least 3 or 4, being in on something together which is supposed to remain covered up. And this "something" would point in my speculation to possibly drugs. Sophie was known to have taken long hikes in the rural countryside on the peninsula, so the chances that she's seen something she shouldn't have is not impossible. Also, whoever was hiding the activities would probably have been surprised by Sophie's visit around Christmas, or didn't even expect her to be there at this time of the year. All not impossible speculations, and even mor so, if Leo Bolger or Alfie Lyons gotten off lightly for something around drugs.

    Regarding Harris, I am only aware that he is from NI, studied in Cambridge, has an OBE, previously with the RUC, and then came to Ireland after being appointed by the AGS. Wasn't his father killed by the IRA? Not certain? This would lead me to suggest he's not that liked in SF or strongly republican circles?

    Post edited by tinytobe on

  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    A lot of further questions would also keep coming up, like what about all the other theories we have: In the theory the husband Daniel Toscan du Plantier, hiring a hitman to kill his wife or her ex lover Bruno doing it himself or hiring somebody? Would in those cases the police have coerced and colluded the way they did?

    The thing, is one can't say the police didn't have a strong motive to act the way they did. And if they had motive, it wasn't just to cover for one single guy, it would have been more.

    Don't know if that gives you more understanding to my speculations. They covered up to protect 3 or 4 other locals. Who would have done the killing, we can only speculate again, maybe it was the "horny Guard from Bantry", maybe they coerced Alfie, it's just pure speculation.

    Post edited by tinytobe on

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    Yes, I understand your speculations, and they are grand. I think most speculation is reasonable in a case like this tbh.

  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    The speculations could even go another step further. If the police were in it according to this speculative enquiry, and if either the Guard from Bantry did it, or they coerced somebody like Alfie to do it, they would have with utter certainty known the duty roster of the Guards for the next couple of days.

    The body would have been discovered at some point, either by Shirley, or by Sophie's housekeeper at the earliest, - as far as we know. And the officer or officers called out to the scene would have been the ones on duty that day or the following days with ample chances to mess up and miss or deliberately miss evidence and or DNA at the crime scene. This would have happened before anybody "untouchable" from Dublin would have arrived.

    So if Harris wants to investigate bent Guards, I'd start with those local Guards who were out at the scene that morning, and also with those who were later on investigating the case. Are still with the Garda? Are they retired by now?

    The rotten apple is somewhere down these lines. I'd also be interested to know how precisely they'd gotten the drugs for Martin Graham to get close to Bailey.

  • Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭ kerry_man15

    Do you think that perhaps a shipment of drugs was being moved from the area (Alfie's) that morning and Sophie interrupted?

  • Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭ kerry_man15

    So Detective Dwyer was involved in at least two high profile botched investigations in a short space of time...and yet he's so smug on the Netflix documentary, acting and talking like he's Clouseau. He seems fully convinced he got his man and outwitted Bailey, the guy is delusional.

  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    In the speculative case if drugs were shipped, than they would have arrived in an isolated harbour or some cove where they could land with a small boat, - off to the shore from a bigger yacht. If there was an "operation" they wouldn't have been so dumb to store something at Alfie's or move something in the area or along that driveway, where they were close to Sophie's. However they would certainly have been surprised by Sophie's visit before Christmas. Also given that everybody knew everybody on that peninsula, it would probably have been easy to figure out when Sophie would come to stay at her house and when not. So that visit before Christmas would have been a bit of a surprise, - other than to the caretaker, and possibly the Ungerers? I'd suggest Sophie didn't interrupt something, but she saw something she shouldn't, and it may not have been the first time.

    So, that's somebody Harris could look at closer, Dwyer. Why hasn't he so far? Did Dwyer know that particular Guard from Bantry? Were they close friends or worked together longer? Which other contacts and friends in the Guards did this Guard from Bantry have? Somebody must have the answers to this, in a rural community it's hard to keep secrets. And don't be fooled or blinded by somebody talking like Clouseau. However in today's world more attention to detail and looking beyond things is required, it's a society with a short attention span these days and Netflix wants to make money as well.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 698 ✭✭✭ flanna01

    Ian Bailey is doing two live stream gigs in January.

    The topic matter is poems and stories.

    At a fiver a pop, its great value.

This discussion has been closed.