Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

hometruths · 26-11-2021 10:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118229134#Comment_118229134

In fairness, I just checked HSE website and they do actually mention immunity:

After having both doses, most people will have immunity. This means you will be protected against COVID-19.

Most of the stuff you hear from politicians, CMO etc is reducing ICU etc or indirect references as you indicated like "Vaccinated are less likely to catch Covid than the unvaccinated." They are very wary of discussing immunity.

This is hardly surprising as cases rises in tandem with vaccination rates.

Edit to add. They only specifically say immunity in relation to Astra Zeneca. The others have some vague waffle on the subject that is completely non commital and stops short of saying the vaccine confers immunity:

Vaccines teach your immune system how to protect you from diseases.

It is much safer for your immune system to learn how to protect you from COVID-19 through vaccination than by catching the virus.

https://www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/covid-19-vaccine/

hometruths · 26-11-2021 11:09pm

Further to the above in Read more about immunity link they have:

After having both doses of a COVID-19 vaccine, most people will be protected against the virus.

There is a small chance you might still get COVID-19 after vaccination. Even if you do get COVID-19, being vaccinated can reduce how serious your symptoms will be.

There is some new evidence to show that the vaccines may reduce you spreading COVID-19 to other people but more research is needed.

So, no mention of immunity, just most people will be protected, and pushing the "vaccinated can reduce how serious your symptoms will be" line.

Igotadose · 26-11-2021 11:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118229439#Comment_118229439

Not just "a line". A fact

hometruths · 26-11-2021 11:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118229561#Comment_118229561

Sure, no doubt about it. That's what I have been arguing all day!

Tony Holohan is very clear on vaccines performance in terms of immunity versus reducing severe outcomes:

“Unfortunately, in crude terms, the vaccinations have probably done a little better than we might have hoped in terms of preventing severe infection.

“They have performed and held up their performance really well in protecting people from the severe effects of the disease.

“In truth they are probably not performing as well as we might have hoped in terms of preventing transmission.

“There is an impact on transmission by and to people who are vaccinated, but it’s not as great as we might like.

Promoting the benefits of reducing severe cases whilst admitting immunity is disappointing.

He confirmed the message to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health in response to a question on what vaccination rate would be possible for herd immunity:

Even if we achieve high rates of vaccination, the vaccines are not perfect, far from it, in their ability to prevent transmission of the virus. It is not possible for us to talk in terms of achieving herd immunity to this virus in the same way that we do with a disease such as measles. If we achieve a level of 95% in that case, we know that the chances, in effect, of an unvaccinated person in the remaining 5% running into someone with measles will be very low. In the context of this disease, however, we do not think that herd immunity is a concept that we should be talking about. Our message in this case is that the further we can go and the higher we can get regarding the percentage of people vaccinated, the better we will be. Equally, every individual vaccinated means better protection for him or her from the severe effects of this disease. That is our basic message.

So that's pretty clear from a credible source and official authority. The benefits from this vaccine are that it makes covid infections milder, not that it grants immunity.

patnor1011 · 27-11-2021 12:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227127#Comment_118227127

You fail to realize that smallpox vaccine is 95% effective against getting infection itself and for a quite long time whereas covid vaccine is nowhere near that effective mere 2 months after taking it and offer pretty much zero protection against contracting covid. The only effect is hypothetical reduction of symptoms which can not be proved since nobody knows what their symptoms would be after getting infected.

Not to mention that a lot of current research points to that natural gained "immunity" by recovering from covid seems to give you far superior and longer lasting protection than any current covid vaccine.

patnor1011 · 27-11-2021 12:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227432#Comment_118227432

Of course it is a vaccine. Ever since vaccine definition was changed to accommodate its failure to provide any immunity whatsoever. which (immuniy) by the way used to be a definition of a vaccine.

patnor1011 · 27-11-2021 12:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227811#Comment_118227811

You seems to be fixated on whatever you define as "perfectly valid reason not to get vaccinated" since you post it time and again.

There are actually few of them all perfectly valid.

Allergy to many components which is well documented and nothing to be dismissed even by vaccine zealots. Another one may be religious reason as all current vaccines do use cell lines derived from aborted humans tissue. That is not to be dismissed either since freedom of religion is quite a thing in "democratic" society.

Last, and most valid reason is that everyone who recovered from covid achieved much better and broader protection than any current vaccine offer.

27-11-2021 12:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230029#Comment_118230029

Meanwhile those who get COVID and die... And generally if you're allergic to an ingredient in a covid vaccine, you can switch and that's it. So basically out of your list, religious freedom is the best you can manage and all major world religions are favouring getting the vaccines regardless of what it derives from.

King Mob · 27-11-2021 12:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227071#Comment_118227071

OK.

What is the medical definition of immunity according to yourself? It would be nice is you also provided some back up for this definition or a source.

And if you are now stating that the covid vaccines aren't vaccines, how is it that they have achieved their effects (which you have accepted) if they aren't giving people immunity?

How are they different from how the smallpox vaccine and other vaccines work chemically and biologically?

You've been repeatedly misrepresenting me these last few pages. It's very dishonest of you.

patnor1011 · 27-11-2021 12:36am

One more thing from today's discussion is that if you change your opinion or what you pushed as a some sort of a fact few months down the line is not changing your opinion but merely "clarifying" the facts.

Good to know it may become quite handy.

patnor1011 · 27-11-2021 12:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230176#Comment_118230176

Very tiny number of people who got covid died. They had on average 4 and more other life threatening ailments to go with it. If they go for vaccine all power to them.

There are few ingredients which are identical to every vaccine currently approved over here good luck trying to switch.

You conveniently omitted last reason which is recovery from covid itself. (Ireland itself is close to 600k of such cases at this moment).

Can you list what benefit person gain taking a vaccine who successfully recovered from covid?

King Mob · 27-11-2021 12:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230181#Comment_118230181

I haven't changed my opinion though.

It's just that conspiracy theorists like yourself like to change the definition of words to suit.

For example you claimed that the covid vaccines weren't vaccines. You then threw a strop when we suggested that's what you said. Your strop got worse whe we quoted your words back at you.

Now I wager you're back to claiming the vaccines aren't vaccines cause you've a buddy arguing the same thing.

But unfortunately the vaccines are still vaccines.

King Mob · 27-11-2021 12:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230247#Comment_118230247

Again statements of fact with zero support. So you are lying.

27-11-2021 12:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230247#Comment_118230247

I didn't conveniently ignore it. It's pretty unknown how any individual will react to covid so your logic is see what happens. They end up with immunity or they end up with long covid or death, not a great gamble tbh.

In relation to allergies, if you have an allergy to an ingredient, you take an alternative. That's exactly how it's handled. If you've got some incredibly rare scenario where you're allergic to both mRNA and non mRNA vaccines then you consult with your doctor.

So how are the gotchas going?

patnor1011 · 27-11-2021 1:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230365#Comment_118230365

Well, after nearly two years I would go on a limb here saying we pretty much know how would individuals react. That is why I said that if people with a lot of comorbidities decide to go for vaccine more power to them.

As for the allergies in case you do not know they tend to be more prevalent and as I mentioned and you refuse to acknowledge all currently approved vaccines share some ingredients to which some people are allergic. So again, good luck trying to find alternative.

What gotchas? That close to 600k people in ireland got covid and recovered already and which gave them from what we know broad and long lasting protection?

hometruths · 27-11-2021 1:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230179#Comment_118230179

immunity: The body’s ability to resist infection and disease. Harvard Medical Dictionary

if you can demonstrate where I’ve misrepresented you, I’ll happily correct it.

King Mob · 27-11-2021 1:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230551#Comment_118230551

Sorry mate, I asked you three questions in that post. Why did you ignore the second and third one?

Why have I had to repeatedly ask you the same questions to get you to respond to them?

It's very very dishonest.

Answer the questions now, or explain why you are ignoring.

hometruths · 27-11-2021 1:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230569#Comment_118230569

Lol.

King Mob · 27-11-2021 1:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230601#Comment_118230601

Cool questions dodged again.

You can't answer them and you're not honest enough to admit it. Thats fine. It happens a lot around here.

I think the reason you don't want to answer the questions is because 1. you're not actually sure how vaccines work and 2. you're realising that you're showing why your misrepresentation of me is falling apart.

As you said, immunity is the body's ability to fight off infection.

The covid vaccines give people's bodies the ability to fight off infection in boardly the same way as the smallpox vaccine and other vaccines you believe in.

The covid vaccines grant immunity.

You also agreed that the covid vaccines are effective and that the stats you've been shown are accurate.

I asked you to explain how the covid vaccines are doing this, but you declined to answer because you know the answer: the covid vaccines grant immunity.

Now, since you're running away from my points, please at least have the decency to stop misrepresenting me.

Maybe have a go at some of the conspiracy theorists who've actually been making false claims throughout this thread.

hometruths · 27-11-2021 2:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117054672#Comment_117054672

lol again. Did you miss Tony Holahans view on the subject?

Even if we achieve high rates of vaccination, the vaccines are not perfect, far from it, in their ability to prevent transmission of the virus. It is not possible for us to talk in terms of achieving herd immunity to this virus in the same way that we do with a disease such as measles. If we achieve a level of 95% in that case, we know that the chances, in effect, of an unvaccinated person in the remaining 5% running into someone with measles will be very low. In the context of this disease, however, we do not think that herd immunity is a concept that we should be talking about. Our message in this case is that the further we can go and the higher we can get regarding the percentage of people vaccinated, the better we will be. Equally, every individual vaccinated means better protection for him or her from the severe effects of this disease. That is our basic message.

Hint: the reason measles is different is the measles vaccine grants immunity. Note also what our CMO’s basic message is.

Just in case anyone missed it, to reiterate what kicked off King Mob flinging accusations of dishonesty and misrepresentation, and why I ended up letting Tony Holohan do the talking, I reminded King Mob of this gem from of his from about 6 months ago:

It doesn't "offer you possibility of having covid infecton milder". It grants immunity.

Studies have shown that the vaccines have and effectiveness of over 90%

I again suspect you, like most conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers don't actually know what vaccines are or how they work.

This being especially ironic given that you claimed the covid vaccines weren't vaccines.

that aged well.

King Mob · 27-11-2021 2:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230652#Comment_118230652

Sorry, you are again misrepresenting me and ignoring the points I've made to you. You've repeatedly dodged my questions.

This is dishonest. Not sure what you'd call it.

Cowardly might be another good word for it...

Do the covid vaccines give people the ability to fight off the infection? Yes or no?

If no, then why have the vaccines been working at reducing infections and severe disease?

If yes, then you have no objection to my statement and you were just trying to nitpick and have been caught out.

You'll most likely dodge the question though.

You also seem to be mixing up herd immunity with personal immunity.

hometruths · 27-11-2021 2:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230662#Comment_118230662

Most likely ignore is right. The Chief Medical officer’s views made my point for me. I see no need to Labour it.

King Mob · 27-11-2021 2:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230667#Comment_118230667

But no, he doesn't make you point or answer any of the questions you're running away from.

The covid vaccines give people's bodies the ability to fight off covid infections. You admit that the covid vaccines have had a massive effect in reducing infections and hospitalisations.

They have done this because they give people's bodies the ability to fight off infections. I asked you to provide another explanation, but you can't, so you're ignoring the question. This is very dishonest and childish. But again, par for the course here.

Immunity was defined by yourself as "the body's ability to fight off infection".

The covid vaccines grant immunity.

The covid vaccines are vaccines.

My points stand until you address them. Ignoring them doesn't make them go away, it just looks like you can't address them.

So if you're no longer interested in continuing your misrepresentations of me, is there any chance you'll be addressing any of the many, many false claims made by conspiracy theorists in this thread?

If not, why not?

hometruths · 27-11-2021 2:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230685#Comment_118230685

Immunity was defined by yourself as “the body’s ability to fight off infection”.

No. It wasn’t.

Will you please stop misrepresenting me. In fact it’s worse than that, because you keep doing it and putting it in quotes as if you have copied and pasted something verbatim that I posted, when in fact you have changed the key word of a definition.

It’s thoroughly dishonest. And you wonder why your questions get ignored? Lol.

King Mob · 27-11-2021 3:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230704#Comment_118230704

Yes it was.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230551#Comment_118230551

Not sure why you're trying to lie about what you said.

If this isn't the definition of immunity, what do you believe it is?

I do also like that this was the only question you answered but now you're entirely contradicting it.

patnor1011 · 27-11-2021 3:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230704#Comment_118230704

It is his modus operandi. That is why his posts no longer interests me. In fact I do have him on ignore but from occasional glimpses of what he posts when it is quoted by someone else I see he did not change his colors.

When he is proved wrong or do not have any argument then according to him all you say is just waffle and "dodging questions"

His most favorite is "Why are you doing this?" it is literally in about third of his posts.

What he did to you earned him place on my ignore list as not only he like to change what you say and claim you said it, he also likes to let his fantasy run wild saying something in a sense "I think you mean this" only to few posts down the line claiming you said it.

Pure entertainment if you want to kill some time otherwise zero value trying to discuss anything with him as it all inevitably end up with stubborn refusal to acknowledge anything other than his "dodging questions" and "why are you doing this" nonsense.

hometruths · 27-11-2021 7:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230735#Comment_118230735

Yep, I see that. Quite an extreme example of the type.

King Mob · 27-11-2021 10:08am

Lol so again we have another person running away after I point out that they denied saying.

Despite what you guys claim, the vaccines are effective. The vaccines grant immunity. The vaccines are vaccines.

And on top of your guys failing to show that those facts aren't true, we've also yet to hear any examples of harm caused by vaccines that isn't already known and accounted for.

But hey you guys thing I'm a meanie and now your plugging your ears and running away. That makes your lies true.

Dohnjoe · 27-11-2021 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230029#Comment_118230029

Never seen any valid reasons given apart from medical exemptions

"Allergy" - A recent study found out of 30,000 people 3 had a real allergy to the vaccine, and they still tried the vaccine and had no adverse effects. The current figures for anaphylactic shock are approx. 5 people out of every million

"Religious reasons" - These are mostly BS

If you have recovered from Covid you can still get Covid.

The unvaccinated are more likely to catch Covid, to transmit Covid, to experience more severe Covid, and to die than the vaccinated. It's a complete no-brainer.

hometruths · 27-11-2021 12:23pm

Sounds like the UK advisors are of the same view as Tony Holohan regarding the vaccine immunity:

https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1451662532880519174

King Mob · 27-11-2021 12:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118231369#Comment_118231369

But you've agreed that vaccines grant immunity.

Not sure why you're still trying to push this line after you've abandoned it.

Also not sure what this has to do with the actual topic besides you attempt to go off on a nitpicking tangent while ignoring all the false claims made by your conspiracy theory friend there.

Are you not addressing these false claims cause you also believe them?

You won't answer of course. So might be best to assume you do also share these conspiracy beliefs until you state otherwise.

astrofool · 27-11-2021 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118230652#Comment_118230652

The measles vaccine doesn't grant immunity, it still just gives your own immune system the tools to become immune. For people who are immuno-compromised the immunity granted is very low. Luckily for them, herd immunity does the rest of the work.

The COVID vaccines are vaccines.

The COVID vaccines also give your immune system the tools to become immune.

Whether that happens or not will be down to the persons immune system.

It is further complicated by our immune system shedding antibodies for coronavirus, so you can be immune initially but that immunity will wane.

The same effect occurs whether it's via vaccine or if the person is infected with SARS-COV2 (along with the disease effects that it brings).

Hence the need for boosters.

For influenza, the need for follow up vaccines is due to high mutagenicity of the influenza virus, so the virus circulating this year is sufficiently different to last years to evade the immune system (whether you got vaccinated or had the flu in the previous year).

For SARS-COV2 the mutagenicity is lower (omicron has more mutations than usual for example) but it can reinfect due to our immune systems dropping level of antibodies against it. T-Cell/B-Cell response remains.

Dohnjoe · 27-11-2021 1:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118231369#Comment_118231369

It doesn't "blow apart the case" for vaccine passport or cert entry

There are vaccinated and unvaccinated people. In many scenarios it's feasible to have vaccinated customers vs no customers

hometruths · 27-11-2021 2:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118231609#Comment_118231609

I'm not pro vaccine certs, but I'd agree there is a case for them in some scenarios. I think the tweeter is talking about the the specific argument many in the UK (and perhaps even Johnson himself, but I'm not sure about that) have made for them. I'm not sure I'd agree that it blows it away, but I certainly think that it undermines it.

In any event, the reason I posted the tweet was for Johnsons words not the tweeters commentary. To demonstrate that the UK government seems to be of a similiar thinking as our own, and I suspect the vast majority of the public too:

That now we know the principal benefit of taking the vaccines is not better protection from catching the disease i.e immunity, but better protection from the severe effects of the disease.

astrofool · 27-11-2021 2:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118231690#Comment_118231690

You seem to be ratholing on a medical definition that you're not really able to describe.

A person can be immune to the disease (COVID-19), most vaccinated are, but not to infection and transmission of SARS-COV2.

Dohnjoe · 27-11-2021 3:10pm

So Kennedy Jr was in Switzerland

"At a rally in Bern this month, thousands turned out to hear speakers, including renowned anti-vaxxer Robert Kennedy Jr, who hailed Switzerland as Europe's last great hope against what he claimed were sinister powers forcing people to get vaccinated, while at the same time, via the Covid certificate, introducing a draconian mass surveillance system."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59380745

What a surprise, completely in line with all the drooling nonsense that conspiracy theorists come out with.

King Mob · 27-11-2021 4:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118231690#Comment_118231690

But according to you, that's not the definition of immunity.

You stated that the definition was the bodies ability to the resist the disease.

So now after claiming that, then denying you claimed that, you're claiming something else entirely.

You are now claiming that immunity is "protection from catching the disease". Ok. Can you back this definition up like you did the previous definition you used?

Or are you going to start pretending you didn't say this either the moment it doesn't help your argument?

silliussoddius · 27-11-2021 6:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118231929#Comment_118231929

The grifters are lucky that COVID came along, the wheels had fallen off the autism band wagon. This should give them a lot of mileage.

patnor1011 · 27-11-2021 11:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118231265#Comment_118231265

The unvaccinated who recovered from covid are also less likely to catch covid, be more adapted to fight various variants, to experience nonsymptomatic covid and are far less likely to die from covid than vaccinated.

It is called natural immunity which is far more robust and longer lasting. It is a complete no-brainer.

To dismiss religious reasons as a mostly BS is a very telling sing about your character.

King Mob · 27-11-2021 11:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233876#Comment_118233876

Again, statements of fact with no backing up.

So all can be dismissed as lies.

Also it indicates that he doesn't actually know how vaccines work.

And I wonder if he's going to be pulled up for claiming something grants immunity...

silliussoddius · 28-11-2021 2:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233876#Comment_118233876

Natural immunity runs the risk of death. Something pro-life religious people are most likely against.

Harryd225 · 28-11-2021 6:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116978407#Comment_116978407

''RT is Russian propaganda'' absolute rubbish that RT is any less reliable than sky news or BBC news it's simply showing things from a different perspective so when people view RT and see a different perspective to something like a country in the middle east they think it must be propaganda because the sacred BBC news or the sacred Fox news or whatever have a different one.

King Mob · 28-11-2021 6:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234334#Comment_118234334

Huh. Weird.

Another random poster who decided to randomly dig up a months old post to nitpick, yet doesn't seem to have any issue with the endless lies, propaganda and dishonesty from the anti vaxxers on the thread...

Fighting Tao · 28-11-2021 7:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234334#Comment_118234334

Hello another new account. Haven’t we met before?

Why dig up 7 month old posts? How about all the posts since where so much nonsense has been posted by your compatriots? Do you have any evidence of how vaccines are unsafe? Or are you going to post nonsense too?

Igotadose · 28-11-2021 9:23am

The unvaccinated who recovered from covid are also less likely to catch covid, be more adapted to fight various variants, to experience nonsymptomatic covid and are far less likely to die from covid than vaccinated.

You might want to qualify the above with actual numbers. Start with unvaccinated who recover from covid are less likely to die from covid (second infection) than those that are vaccinated. It's far from as simple as you're making it out to be.

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-11-2021 9:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233876#Comment_118233876

"It is called natural immunity which is far more robust and longer lasting. It is a complete no-brainer."

So why do we have an annual flu jab? Surely once someone has had the flu then would be

"less likely to catch flu, be more adapted to fight various variants, to experience nonsymptomatic flu and are far less likely to die from flu than vaccinated."??

sydthebeat · 28-11-2021 10:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233876#Comment_118233876

Unvaccinated people are twice as likely to re-catch the delta variant as compared to "recovered" cases who also have received a vaccination, according to Israeli studies.

So in every way possible, being vaccinated is better for you than being unvaccinated

patnor1011 · 28-11-2021 10:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234483#Comment_118234483

Please, read twice before you write.

In case you still do not see it I am not talking about unvaccinated people. I have said that unvaccinated people who recovered from covid are less likely to catch it and are more adapted to fight other variants.

That is undisputable fact or as some of you like to say - It is science.

Recovery from covid has been found to grant people broader and longer lasting protection than any current vaccine.

Harryd225 · 28-11-2021 10:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234340#Comment_118234340

It was on the first page when I clicked on the thread, one of the only comments I read on here.

King Mob · 28-11-2021 10:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234577#Comment_118234577

So if it's a fact, why aren't you providing any source for this claim?

Why do you keep ignoring people asking you do to this?

Usually it's because you're lying and you don't have any source to back up your claim.

Also, even if this is the case, you are ignoring the fact that a person who isn't vaccinated is more likely to die or be hospitalised, is more likely to spread the virus and more likely to contribute to the possibility of variations.

But of course, you're plugging your ears and screaming LALALA really loud, so all that stuff can't bother you...

Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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