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Covid vaccines safety

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭ patnor1011


    One more thing from today's discussion is that if you change your opinion or what you pushed as a some sort of a fact few months down the line is not changing your opinion but merely "clarifying" the facts.

    Good to know it may become quite handy.

    “One believes things because one has been conditioned to believe them.” ― Aldous Huxley, Brave New World



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭ patnor1011


    Very tiny number of people who got covid died. They had on average 4 and more other life threatening ailments to go with it. If they go for vaccine all power to them.

    There are few ingredients which are identical to every vaccine currently approved over here good luck trying to switch.

    You conveniently omitted last reason which is recovery from covid itself. (Ireland itself is close to 600k of such cases at this moment).

    Can you list what benefit person gain taking a vaccine who successfully recovered from covid?

    “One believes things because one has been conditioned to believe them.” ― Aldous Huxley, Brave New World



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,041 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    I haven't changed my opinion though.

    It's just that conspiracy theorists like yourself like to change the definition of words to suit.


    For example you claimed that the covid vaccines weren't vaccines. You then threw a strop when we suggested that's what you said. Your strop got worse whe we quoted your words back at you.


    Now I wager you're back to claiming the vaccines aren't vaccines cause you've a buddy arguing the same thing.


    But unfortunately the vaccines are still vaccines.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,041 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Again statements of fact with zero support. So you are lying.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,979 ✭✭✭ protonmike


    I didn't conveniently ignore it. It's pretty unknown how any individual will react to covid so your logic is see what happens. They end up with immunity or they end up with long covid or death, not a great gamble tbh.


    In relation to allergies, if you have an allergy to an ingredient, you take an alternative. That's exactly how it's handled. If you've got some incredibly rare scenario where you're allergic to both mRNA and non mRNA vaccines then you consult with your doctor.


    So how are the gotchas going?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭ patnor1011


    Well, after nearly two years I would go on a limb here saying we pretty much know how would individuals react. That is why I said that if people with a lot of comorbidities decide to go for vaccine more power to them.

    As for the allergies in case you do not know they tend to be more prevalent and as I mentioned and you refuse to acknowledge all currently approved vaccines share some ingredients to which some people are allergic. So again, good luck trying to find alternative.

    What gotchas? That close to 600k people in ireland got covid and recovered already and which gave them from what we know broad and long lasting protection?

    “One believes things because one has been conditioned to believe them.” ― Aldous Huxley, Brave New World



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    immunityThe body’s ability to resist infection and disease. Harvard Medical Dictionary

    if you can demonstrate where I’ve misrepresented you, I’ll happily correct it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,041 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Sorry mate, I asked you three questions in that post. Why did you ignore the second and third one?

    Why have I had to repeatedly ask you the same questions to get you to respond to them?

    It's very very dishonest.


    Answer the questions now, or explain why you are ignoring.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭ hometruths




  • Registered Users Posts: 22,041 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Cool questions dodged again.

    You can't answer them and you're not honest enough to admit it. Thats fine. It happens a lot around here.


    I think the reason you don't want to answer the questions is because 1. you're not actually sure how vaccines work and 2. you're realising that you're showing why your misrepresentation of me is falling apart.


    As you said, immunity is the body's ability to fight off infection.

    The covid vaccines give people's bodies the ability to fight off infection in boardly the same way as the smallpox vaccine and other vaccines you believe in.

    The covid vaccines grant immunity.


    You also agreed that the covid vaccines are effective and that the stats you've been shown are accurate.

    I asked you to explain how the covid vaccines are doing this, but you declined to answer because you know the answer: the covid vaccines grant immunity.


    Now, since you're running away from my points, please at least have the decency to stop misrepresenting me.


    Maybe have a go at some of the conspiracy theorists who've actually been making false claims throughout this thread.



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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    lol again. Did you miss Tony Holahans view on the subject?

    Even if we achieve high rates of vaccination, the vaccines are not perfect, far from it, in their ability to prevent transmission of the virus. It is not possible for us to talk in terms of achieving herd immunity to this virus in the same way that we do with a disease such as measles. If we achieve a level of 95% in that case, we know that the chances, in effect, of an unvaccinated person in the remaining 5% running into someone with measles will be very low. In the context of this disease, however, we do not think that herd immunity is a concept that we should be talking about. Our message in this case is that the further we can go and the higher we can get regarding the percentage of people vaccinated, the better we will be. Equally, every individual vaccinated means better protection for him or her from the severe effects of this disease. That is our basic message.

    Hint: the reason measles is different is the measles vaccine grants immunity. Note also what our CMO’s basic message is.

    Just in case anyone missed it, to reiterate what kicked off King Mob flinging accusations of dishonesty and misrepresentation, and why I ended up letting Tony Holohan do the talking, I reminded King Mob of this gem from of his from about 6 months ago:

    It doesn't "offer you possibility of having covid infecton milder". It grants immunity.

    Studies have shown that the vaccines have and effectiveness of over 90%

    I again suspect you, like most conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers don't actually know what vaccines are or how they work.

    This being especially ironic given that you claimed the covid vaccines weren't vaccines.

    that aged well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,041 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Sorry, you are again misrepresenting me and ignoring the points I've made to you. You've repeatedly dodged my questions.

    This is dishonest. Not sure what you'd call it.

    Cowardly might be another good word for it...


    Do the covid vaccines give people the ability to fight off the infection? Yes or no?

    If no, then why have the vaccines been working at reducing infections and severe disease?

    If yes, then you have no objection to my statement and you were just trying to nitpick and have been caught out.


    You'll most likely dodge the question though.


    You also seem to be mixing up herd immunity with personal immunity.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    Most likely ignore is right. The Chief Medical officer’s views made my point for me. I see no need to Labour it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,041 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    But no, he doesn't make you point or answer any of the questions you're running away from.

    The covid vaccines give people's bodies the ability to fight off covid infections. You admit that the covid vaccines have had a massive effect in reducing infections and hospitalisations.

    They have done this because they give people's bodies the ability to fight off infections. I asked you to provide another explanation, but you can't, so you're ignoring the question. This is very dishonest and childish. But again, par for the course here.

    Immunity was defined by yourself as "the body's ability to fight off infection".

    The covid vaccines grant immunity.

    The covid vaccines are vaccines.


    My points stand until you address them. Ignoring them doesn't make them go away, it just looks like you can't address them.


    So if you're no longer interested in continuing your misrepresentations of me, is there any chance you'll be addressing any of the many, many false claims made by conspiracy theorists in this thread?

    If not, why not?



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    Immunity was defined by yourself as “the body’s ability to fight off infection”.

    No. It wasn’t.

    Will you please stop misrepresenting me. In fact it’s worse than that, because you keep doing it and putting it in quotes as if you have copied and pasted something verbatim that I posted, when in fact you have changed the key word of a definition.

    It’s thoroughly dishonest. And you wonder why your questions get ignored? Lol.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,041 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Yes it was.

    Not sure why you're trying to lie about what you said.


    If this isn't the definition of immunity, what do you believe it is?


    I do also like that this was the only question you answered but now you're entirely contradicting it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭ patnor1011


    It is his modus operandi. That is why his posts no longer interests me. In fact I do have him on ignore but from occasional glimpses of what he posts when it is quoted by someone else I see he did not change his colors.

    When he is proved wrong or do not have any argument then according to him all you say is just waffle and "dodging questions"

    His most favorite is "Why are you doing this?" it is literally in about third of his posts.

    What he did to you earned him place on my ignore list as not only he like to change what you say and claim you said it, he also likes to let his fantasy run wild saying something in a sense "I think you mean this" only to few posts down the line claiming you said it.

    Pure entertainment if you want to kill some time otherwise zero value trying to discuss anything with him as it all inevitably end up with stubborn refusal to acknowledge anything other than his "dodging questions" and "why are you doing this" nonsense.

    “One believes things because one has been conditioned to believe them.” ― Aldous Huxley, Brave New World



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    Yep, I see that. Quite an extreme example of the type.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,041 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    Lol so again we have another person running away after I point out that they denied saying.


    Despite what you guys claim, the vaccines are effective. The vaccines grant immunity. The vaccines are vaccines.

    And on top of your guys failing to show that those facts aren't true, we've also yet to hear any examples of harm caused by vaccines that isn't already known and accounted for.


    But hey you guys thing I'm a meanie and now your plugging your ears and running away. That makes your lies true.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,678 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    Never seen any valid reasons given apart from medical exemptions

    "Allergy" - A recent study found out of 30,000 people 3 had a real allergy to the vaccine, and they still tried the vaccine and had no adverse effects. The current figures for anaphylactic shock are approx. 5 people out of every million

    "Religious reasons" - These are mostly BS

    If you have recovered from Covid you can still get Covid.

    The unvaccinated are more likely to catch Covid, to transmit Covid, to experience more severe Covid, and to die than the vaccinated. It's a complete no-brainer.



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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    Sounds like the UK advisors are of the same view as Tony Holohan regarding the vaccine immunity:




  • Registered Users Posts: 22,041 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    But you've agreed that vaccines grant immunity.

    Not sure why you're still trying to push this line after you've abandoned it.


    Also not sure what this has to do with the actual topic besides you attempt to go off on a nitpicking tangent while ignoring all the false claims made by your conspiracy theory friend there.


    Are you not addressing these false claims cause you also believe them?

    You won't answer of course. So might be best to assume you do also share these conspiracy beliefs until you state otherwise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,280 ✭✭✭✭ astrofool


    The measles vaccine doesn't grant immunity, it still just gives your own immune system the tools to become immune. For people who are immuno-compromised the immunity granted is very low. Luckily for them, herd immunity does the rest of the work.

    The COVID vaccines are vaccines.

    The COVID vaccines also give your immune system the tools to become immune.

    Whether that happens or not will be down to the persons immune system.

    It is further complicated by our immune system shedding antibodies for coronavirus, so you can be immune initially but that immunity will wane.

    The same effect occurs whether it's via vaccine or if the person is infected with SARS-COV2 (along with the disease effects that it brings).

    Hence the need for boosters.

    For influenza, the need for follow up vaccines is due to high mutagenicity of the influenza virus, so the virus circulating this year is sufficiently different to last years to evade the immune system (whether you got vaccinated or had the flu in the previous year).

    For SARS-COV2 the mutagenicity is lower (omicron has more mutations than usual for example) but it can reinfect due to our immune systems dropping level of antibodies against it. T-Cell/B-Cell response remains.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,678 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    It doesn't "blow apart the case" for vaccine passport or cert entry

    There are vaccinated and unvaccinated people. In many scenarios it's feasible to have vaccinated customers vs no customers



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭ hometruths


    I'm not pro vaccine certs, but I'd agree there is a case for them in some scenarios. I think the tweeter is talking about the the specific argument many in the UK (and perhaps even Johnson himself, but I'm not sure about that) have made for them. I'm not sure I'd agree that it blows it away, but I certainly think that it undermines it.

    In any event, the reason I posted the tweet was for Johnsons words not the tweeters commentary. To demonstrate that the UK government seems to be of a similiar thinking as our own, and I suspect the vast majority of the public too:

    That now we know the principal benefit of taking the vaccines is not better protection from catching the disease i.e immunity, but better protection from the severe effects of the disease.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,280 ✭✭✭✭ astrofool


    You seem to be ratholing on a medical definition that you're not really able to describe.

    A person can be immune to the disease (COVID-19), most vaccinated are, but not to infection and transmission of SARS-COV2.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,678 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe



    So Kennedy Jr was in Switzerland

    "At a rally in Bern this month, thousands turned out to hear speakers, including renowned anti-vaxxer Robert Kennedy Jr, who hailed Switzerland as Europe's last great hope against what he claimed were sinister powers forcing people to get vaccinated, while at the same time, via the Covid certificate, introducing a draconian mass surveillance system."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59380745

    What a surprise, completely in line with all the drooling nonsense that conspiracy theorists come out with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,041 ✭✭✭✭ King Mob


    But according to you, that's not the definition of immunity.

    You stated that the definition was the bodies ability to the resist the disease.

    So now after claiming that, then denying you claimed that, you're claiming something else entirely.

    You are now claiming that immunity is "protection from catching the disease". Ok. Can you back this definition up like you did the previous definition you used?


    Or are you going to start pretending you didn't say this either the moment it doesn't help your argument?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭ silliussoddius


    The grifters are lucky that COVID came along, the wheels had fallen off the autism band wagon. This should give them a lot of mileage.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭ patnor1011


    The unvaccinated who recovered from covid are also less likely to catch covid, be more adapted to fight various variants, to experience nonsymptomatic covid and are far less likely to die from covid than vaccinated.

    It is called natural immunity which is far more robust and longer lasting. It is a complete no-brainer.

    To dismiss religious reasons as a mostly BS is a very telling sing about your character.

    “One believes things because one has been conditioned to believe them.” ― Aldous Huxley, Brave New World



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