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Austria hits panic button.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭ Markus Antonius


    Nice little post mortem on the discussion, thanks for this. So to conclude, you don't see the benefit in looking at the data but the poster's value system or morals don't meet your standards. Very scientific indeed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭ Danno


    88/100 ICU admissions have underlying conditions regardless of vaccination status.

    ~50/100 ICU admissions are not vaccinated. Based upon Sept/Oct reports (most recent data)

    Agreed so far?

    While it is possible that all 50/100 that are vaccinated in ICU have underlying conditions, that leaves 38/50 in ICU who are unvaccinated with underlying conditions. Or if you like to put it, 76% of all unvaccinated in ICU have underlying conditions.

    Why are there so many unvaccinated folks with underlying conditions, when they are the people who would most benefit from a vaccine? Is it because they cannot have the vaccine? What are the reasons?

    Those blaming the 6% unvaccinated in the population for 50% of all ICU admissions when it is demonstrable that they are responsible really for 12% of all ICU is a dishonest argument.

    Try and find out about the unvaccinated with underlying conditions and understand why?

    Then unload all you want on the other 12%.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,392 ✭✭✭ Wolf359f


    A doctor claimed people in the 30's were dying each week. The OP claimed he was lying and nobody since August under presented proof which they assumed would prove the doctor wrong. However the link they supplied, did indeed show there was people under 45 dying since August. Proving themselves incorrect.

    Now they are deflecting away from it instead of putting their hands up and admitting they were incorrect.

    I don't care what the discussion was about, I just hate when people use incorrect data to prove something and when it's pointed out to them, they don't change their opinion or they just ignore it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,672 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    @Danno wrote

    Why are there so many unvaccinated folks with underlying conditions, when they are the people who would most benefit from a vaccine? Is it because they cannot have the vaccine? What are the reasons?

    I don't necessarily agree with your wider analysis, and I'm not blaming anyone, but of the two vaccine-refuseniks I know personally, both are (I think) past state retirement age and probably have some kind of underlying condition, since most people of that age have something going on heathwise, even if they are relatively fit and active. They're also Irish, not that it particularly matters, but I think it's more likely that the older unvaxxed are predominantly Irish given migration patterns. It is relevant to motivations though, since they don't have the same "soviets screwed us" baggage. Neither of them have even occasional contact with the health service, they are both proud of this. One takes the pragmatic view that if it aint broke don't fix it, and the other is a anti-everything lunatic. I hope neither get covid but if they do I hope they don't end up in hospital.

    Anyway, anecdotes are not data.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,183 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    My god. I don't think I've ever seen such utter ignorance and scutter being presented as some kind of logic.


    I'm going to try one more time, but I know that I'll be wasting my time. Lets suppose there are 100 people with diabetes. Which is an underlying condition. 94 of these get vaccinated. 6 don't.

    At the end of 1 year we look at how those the 100 got on. 8 have ended up in ICU. 4 of these were vaccinated. 4 were not. So we have a 50:50 split of who went to ICU.

    These example numbers show that a vaccinated person is 16 times (4.17% vs 66.7% )more likely to end up in ICU than an unvaccinated one. Most people will see this as obvious incontrovertible evidence that all of the 100 should have been vaccinated.

    What you and your scientifically. mathematically, and logically, illiterate buddies on here would conclude (possibly after copying and pasting from a facebook rant) is that vaccination status was irrelevant because 100% of the people who ended up in ICU had an underlying condition 🙄


    But that's it. I don't have time to be trying to explain, to certain types of posters, logic that is really only one step above the ability to count.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭ Danno


    Ignorance and scutter? You're hypothesising about a situation that might happen after a year, whereas my argument and some others on here is with the ACTUAL data we have, right here, right now in late 2021.

    And you have the nerve to call me and some others illiterate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,183 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    There are scientifically, mathematically, and logically, illiterate posts on this thread. That is just the truth. What you wrote was indeed scutter.

    You can work through through my example for other scenarios. I made it as simple as possible so try to understand it as it is first. If you want to knock yourself out, you can even adjust it so that there were 2/4/6/8/10/12 people in ICU from the 100. Just keep the ratios of 94:6 and 50:50. You will see that the relative ratio between the groups is still 16. There is nothing magical about me choosing "8" to end up in ICU. It is mathematically the same once the two other ratios remain as above.

    Or you can argue with me why vaccination status is irrelevant because 100% who ended up in ICU had an underlying condition. That's really what you want to conclude isn't it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭ Markus Antonius


    You are trying to justify mandated vaccines using oversimplified, hypothetical data and you are accusing everyone else of being scientifically illiterate 🤣



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭ Danno


    If you had the gumptions to actually digest what I posted above you should be able to pick out that an unvaccinated person without underlying conditions is twice as likely (at a push) to end up in ICU. That is possible if we assume that all of the vaccinated ICU admissions are ones with underlying conditions. I am giving benefit of the doubt that thanks to the vaccine nobody in ICU ss without an underlying condition.

    Twice as likely is garnered from 6% of the population occupying 12% of admissions to ICU without both a vaccine and an underlying condition. If one person who is vaccinated and without an underlying condition is in ICU with Covid then that single occupancy slashes the "twice as likely" I've probably generously afforded to the unvaccinated cohort above. If there are two, three, perhaps more, then the argument strength for vaccines keeping healthy people out of ICU plummets, or rather "wanes".

    There is not much more I can do to explain this to you.

    I cannot fathom why there are unvaccinated people in ICU with an underlying condition. This is very strange and it's a pity they didn't/couldn't get a vaccine. Nobody has been able to offer a reason why they didn't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,183 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    Well given ya can't understand the simple ones there wouldn'tbne much point in presenting a more complicated one would there.


    Any sure anyway, Bill Gates and George Soros are just paying me to type this so that they can inject more magnetic chips onto people



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,183 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    I cannot fathom why there are unvaccinated people in ICU with an underlying condition.


    You can add that to the long list of things you can't fathom.


    Ya see, plenty of underlying conditions are somewhat self inflicted. Not all of course, but many are preventable and avoidable. For example, if you have a braindead ignorant obese person who doesn't understand, or care, they are killing themselves by stuffing themselves with burgers and chips every night, then one might expect a correlation between the person making that stupid decision and them deciding not to take a vaccine to protect themselves.

    If someone is thick enough not to get a vaccine, what makes you think that them being diagnosed with an underlying condition is magically going to raise their IQ by a sufficient number of points to get them to change their mind?


    Do you know a few people who chose not to get the vaccine? If any of them are overweight, then you have an "underlying condition" candidate right there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,183 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    Lad, I posted a simple calculation/explanation. What is pathetic is that you apparently can't understand it.


    Here is a "magnetic post" for ya




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭ Danno


    Someone who is overweight is not one with an underlying condition. Morbid obesity on the other hand is though an underlying condition.

    So in your mind, 38% of ICU is taken over by morbidly obese, intellectually challenged people who are unvaccinated.

    Going on tonight's latest figures of 130 in ICU, that puts 49 the number of those people you have in your mind currently in ICU.

    Out of 5.1 million citizens, I would hardly call that a crisis or a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

    I think your anger would be better off vented in campaigning for more ICUs to be built, perhaps a doubling of the numbers, as was recommended to Health Minister Mary Harney almost two decades ago. Speaking of Harney, how is she doing now? Hope she's not in Trump's ICU.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,574 ✭✭✭ brickster69


    I know that is the confusing thing to me. Everyone knows the ICU capacity is totally fucked up basically because of neglect by governments over the years. But people make out that it is the fault of a handful of people who have not been vaccinated for whatever reason.

    The reason that the hospitals cannot handle a few people going into ICU stands solely at those governments door, because of that reason alone it has kept Ireland under restrictions for far longer than was needed.

    The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.

    Camille Paglia



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,542 ✭✭✭ circular flexing



    Regardless of capacity, surely the idea should be to keep as many people out of ICU as possible? And by not getting vaccinated, you are increasing the chances you will end up in ICU if you catch COVID.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭ Danno


    A line straight out of Simon Harris' playbook. By that logic - we should just close down alot of the hospitals to keep as many people out of them altogether as possible?

    We spend the sixth highest in the OECD on our healthcare system. Look at the pox situation the system is in - feck all capacity, feck all frontline workers - but a bulging administration system (in an IT age to boot!) that is payed handsomely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 37,967 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail


    so our health system is in a terrible state and your answer is not getting a vaccine so potentially making that situation worse?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,844 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe



    A poll shows the majority of Austrians support the vaccine mandate




  • Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭ VillageIdiot71


    Literally not what's being said, at any level.

    It's too easy a target. A majority of Austrians voting for something.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,844 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    Not sure what your point is. Austrians are quite right leaning, with a big swing to the far-right n recent years especially, and as such there's a stronger anti-vax sentiment than many of it's neighbours. The fact that the majority support a vaccine mandate is very telling.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Or maybe the poll is bs. Like all those YouGov polls that always just happen to get the very result the government wants.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,844 ✭✭✭✭ Dohnjoe


    Does the information support your conspiracy theory views about the pandemic? No, therefore it must be "bs". No evidence given. Interesting that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭ VillageIdiot71


    In truth, I wasn't really making a point. Fine, Austrians can vote as they wish.

    It was actually their far right history I was referring to (and not as a serious point)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Austrian_Anschluss_referendum



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,941 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    Did the professor you quote state that these people were dying in specifically Irish hospitals, being that its a global pandemic and all?

    From the quote its not clear to me that they did.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,941 ✭✭✭✭ GreeBo


    Rather than focus on how many of the people in ICU have an underlying condition, can you tell us how many people in the population have one and what the vaccination breakdown is between them and those without underlying conditions?

    Without that its kinda hard to reason anything meaningful from your data that would backup your point.

    Assuming that the vast majority dont have any underlying condition would indicate that being vaccinated reduces your changes or ending up in ICU (as already demonstrated by My Trump above)

    Post edited by GreeBo on


  • Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭ VillageIdiot71


    Well, I suppose what I'd say is I'm not especially trying to convince someone who wants to put their own read on a statement. Here's the relevant news article.

    For me, he's very clearly asserting:

    1. That many folk presenting to our hospitals with Covid are unvaccinated and "younger"
    2. That there are many deaths resulting from these presentations
    3. That every week these deaths include previously healthy folk in their thirties; i.e. not folk with underlying conditions

    As before, CSO figures make it very clear that there are not Covid-related deaths of folk in their thirties every week, with deaths of folk with no underlying conditions being very much in the minority.

    But if you think he's saying we need 500 ICU beds in Ireland because people in their thirties are dying from Covid in Ulan Bator, then I absolutely won't attempt to change your mind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,102 ✭✭✭ Mic 1972


    Less then 5% of the Irish population are unvaxxed, most of them are not positive to Covid. Out of the infected ones, a small portion will end up in Hospital.

    If hospitals are not capable to handle this, then the issue is with the health system.

    Why are we not treating Covid patients at home to prevent hospitalizations for example?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,102 ✭✭✭ Mic 1972


    I hope they do the same for cancer patients who smoke, heart attack and stroke patients who are overweight, car accident survivors who were responsible for the car crash. The list can go on



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,102 ✭✭✭ Mic 1972


    Not sure about you, but most people have jobs and pay tax

    it think it's clear who is typing from a basement at this point



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