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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    It's highly likely that Alfie left the blood on the door when checking for whatever reason, he might have touched the body but didn't want to say he had. That doesn't mean he had anything to do with the murder but it seems like everything he said was accepted without question. For all that Detective Dwyer says Bailey tried to point them in the direction of France, he very quickly came up with the idea of the monster in the night supported by the nonsense about Kealfadda bridge. Any half serious investigation would have come to a conclusion that there were only two people in the immediate vicinity so they would have to be arrested. The fact they weren't indicates there was no desire to hear what they had to say.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Alfie emphatically denied even going near Sophies body as far as we know. I'm not saying it's impossible, but he'd have no reason to lie, if for example he touched her then tried the back door (why tho? If he knew it was sophie who had been murdered), because there would be a possibility of his dna etc on the body which could implicate him. I find this implausible.

    It's also nonsense that they should have been arrested!! Gardai can't just arrest people for murder because they were neighbours. Like come on now.

    They were both questioned several times I think, which is normal. Arrested tho?

    *smh*



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Good point.

    Wasn't there an unusual knot on one of the boots? Cant remember where I read that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It's just another speculative point from my side.

    If she didn't lace up her boots herself than the killer did, which would also suggest that she wasn't killed outside, as well. Also, could the killer have considered the wellingtons instead of the boots as he would have left fewer traces on the wellingtons as well.

    There are just too many unknown possibilities in this case, and with real DNA and real evidence missing speculations are rampant



  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭BarneyJ


    Jaysus that's all wrong, you can't arrest someone just because they happen to live closest to a crime scene. Reasonable cause to suspect that an arrestable offence had been committed by them is required. There was definitely a desire to hear what they had to say. Statements were taken from Alfie and Shirley.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Why would it suggest she wasn't killed outside?? There's absolutely no evidence that it happened anywhere BUT outside.

    It's clear that everything occurred at the gate. Apart from that faint blood smear on the door there's zero sign of violence elsewhere, or struggle. The house was undisturbed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    The Guards were able to find bs reasons to arrest Bailey. You had two people who said they approached the house after seeing a dead body that should instantly have been recognised as being the owner of the house. There's reason straight off as that doesn't sound credible. Not only would there have been no problem arresting them, there would have been a public acceptance of the logic. Bailey was arrested twice but never charged. What was Jules Thomas arrested for?

    Giving a statement where all you have to say is I heard/saw nothing is very different from the kind of grilling Bailey got, which might have yielded something useful in Alfie's case. If people are innocent they'll get over it, won't they?



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Ian Bailey emphatically denied any involvement so what difference does denial make. There were plenty more grounds for arrest in Alfie's case than there were for Bailey. Motive for a start.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It would just be a speculation in case if the killer put her boots on and laced them and carried her out. However it's just another line of speculation nothing more. Suppose if she was killed inside the house, screams wouldn't have been heard by Alfie or Shirley, the killer would have to have carried her to where she was found, and have returned to the house and cleaned up the murder site, re-arranged everything so everything appeared to be in order. It's not impossible, I'd say. None of us know.

    I would also suggest that Sophie was really killed where she was found, or nearly where she was found. At least there is a strong likelihood that it was that way. It's also possible that she was trying to climb over the gate and trying to flee, and was already injured leaving that blood on the gate, but if so, why didn't she rather try to open the gate. The gate would neither have been locked nor difficult to open, I'd suggest?

    The more one thinks about the case the more questions and speculations are coming up.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ians arrest was a disgrace too, I think we can agree on that. But there was no grounds to arrest Alfie either.

    Question, yes. Arrest, no.

    I imagine the Gards also looked at how him and Shirley reacted after the murder and found shock and upset, nothing abnormal.

    Look i dont think Alfie is uninvolved, I've shared my thoughts multiple times on this, and they should certainly have dug deeper. I'm of the opinion that if Alfie knew more they probably knew this. He was likely complicit in the cover up wether he realised or not.

    But the whole point of them targeting Ian was they found a good suspect and tried to make the evidence fit. They didn't explore other leads and it was a damn disgrace.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I hear ya, but from what we know about the crime scene eg an indent on the ground where her head was hit so many times, I find it impossible to think that was not where she was killed



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Agreed. But we're all speculating, with certainty, we don't know not much in this case.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Tbh the only certainty really is that Sophie was murdered, by her gate.

    It's one of the rare certainties about this case in my opinion



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think you mean grounds for *suspicion*. Agreed.

    There were still no grounds for arrest tho.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    So they should have dug deeper but not arrested Alfie and Shirley? How else do you dig deeper? Ian Bailey's arrest was cobbled together far too quickly, most probably because of what would have become inevitable; the arrest of the only two people who were in the immediate vicinity, who discovered the body and whose dna/fingerprints were very likely on external (internal?) surfaces of the house.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You don't just flat out arrest someone do you??

    It's a matter of gathering evidence and having enough to be able to.

    And by dig deeper I mean find out about Alfies drug dealing/growing and how that could be connected.

    Except they didn't. Because that would mean looking in a direction they wanted to avoid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    The Guards already knew about plant growing in Alfie's land since they'd busted him, so try to be serious. It's almost amusing how on this thread so many people believe they have an idea of the kind of person that is capable of killing another person when time and again it's been proven that almost anybody is. Since nothing remotely like a credible suspect has ever been found for this crime, the most logical conclusion is that this was a dispute between neighbours that went too far. Manslaughter.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm being serious. Obviously they knew. It possibly connected sophie with a garda. Perhaps that's why they didn't go after Alfie as a suspect.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It mustn't have been very urgent if she took time to lace those boots when a slipon rubber shoe, a cut off wellington type, is in the corner. Unless she was getting dressed but who puts boots on first and you couldn't get trousers or jeans on over them



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There is no evidence for the phantom garda and his deathbed confession either


    It's almost amusing how on this thread so many people believe they have an idea of the kind of person that is capable of killing another person when time and again it's been proven that almost anybody is

    That is true



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not draw attention of who?. She was dead at the side of the path



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What do you mean evidence? He existed, certainly wasn't a phantom. Many local people know about the confession, it's just impossible to prove at this stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭flanna01



    I'm beginning to believe, that in all probability, the chances of Marie Farrell and the invisible man driving around the vicinity of the murder scene at 3am that morning, is at best a long shot. (In all probability it didn't happen).

    Why do I think this?

    Logic really.. One of the most brutal murders in recent Irish history occurred in a sleepy coastal region of West Cork, the national, international, and world press are all over it. The story was white hot.

    A witness is found, that reports seeing a figure dressed in black near the crime scene in the early hours of the morning before the body is found.

    A witness that was allegedly accompanied by a mystery man that was actually driving the car that night, so must have been paying attention to the road(s), and any night time murderers wandering around at that hour...

    Yet the mystery man was never tracked down and interviewed.. The second eye witness to verify the man in the long black coat, simply wasn't followed up.. Really????

    If my memory serves me correctly, Farrell went on to give three different names to identify the invisible man, all of whom were already dead.

    Now.. That should have been a red flag straight away, the bells should be deafening... In fact, Big Ben would be quiet in comparison...

    Yet the Gards made her their star witness?? In fact, the case was underpinned by her revelation.

    Ok.. So lets assume the investigation was tainted, and Farrell was coerced to continue with the charade, we need the testimony..

    Two points cross my mind (this is assuming the investigation and Farrell are as bent as each other at this stage)

    1) With such a spot light on the case nationwide, why did the invisible man not present himself to a Garda Station just to eliminate himself from further interest..?? I'm sure having an uncomfortable interview about his sordid double life, could be no more embarrassing than being caught with his pants down with Marie Farrell being made public across the RTE news at 6... How was he to know she wouldn't break, give his name up??

    2) Farrell's Husband stayed loyal..? Realistically, could any marriage withstand that? Every person in the country was listening to his Wife meeting a mystery man and zipping around the coast line and having romantic walks on the beach at 4am in the morning.... Yeah right!! He already had form for violence, taking a knife to another fellow.. Doesn't strike me as the understanding, forgiving type of person...

    I'm not a detective, nor do I have all the interview manuscripts, but from sitting in my armchair, I read it like this..

    Marie Farrell was a fantasist, an ambulance chaser... Liked to be on the fringes of the latest drama. She inbedded herself into the investigation by making hoax calls to the Garda hotline.

    Her lack of brain cells would be her downfall (in many incidences yet to unfold), her first brain fart was using her own household phone to contact the hotline again, this resulted in her 'capture' so to speak.. The Guards had already placed all their chips in her basket, and must have been horrified to find she was a total Loo Lah of the highest order..

    But without Farrell the Guards had nothing. Hence the cooking of the books (or the statements in this case). I believe Farrell was threatened with severe punishment for wasting police time, and was probably made aware that she, her husband and family would be finished in Cork forever, and their name the laughing stock of Ireland...

    Unless....

    We know it was Bailey 100%. He needs to be locked away before he does it again, and he will do it again, and their blood will be on your hands forever.. Help us out, and we will look after you, your family will be safe.... Blah, blah, blah..

    This theory works well with my two points...

    1) No need for the invisible man to present himself, simply because he doesn't exist. Also, no need to waste Garda resources chasing shadows, this explains why they never pushed (too hard) to find this man / shadow. They knew he was just a figment of Marie Farrell's mind.

    2) The Husband knew she never left the house that night.. She had five kids, where was she going?? Sounds like she was suffering a bit with the nerves, the hubby probably felt sorry for her.. No way did he stay with her if her own account was true.. He knew it was all BS.

    Fast forward a few years from the murder... Mr & Mrs Farrell and their brood (expensive brood) have gone from modest market traders to owning a half million property, thanks to the assistance of the Guards.....

    Marie became locked to the Gards, they had her bang to rights. When it got real, she had to protect her family...

    In later years when it went bad, the Gards couldn't have a loose cannon walking around, they needed her to stay on side.. Hence the friendly word in the right ear to get them the dream house as hush hush reward.

    Excuse the long post... I enjoy breaking down and dissecting each and every piece of this puzzle.. A rubiks cube would be easier.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Many local people know about the confession, it's just impossible to prove at this stage.

    Many, not all, local people know about the rumour of the confession



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And that's relevant how?? What, something only becomes plausible if *everyone* knows?

    I've no idea where your going with this whatsoever. You just seem to want to argue with me no matter what I post 🙄



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  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    I think you have to accept that any bent copper deathbed confession is as reliable as a Bailey confession. Useless



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well, no. Most of the Bailey "confessions" were manipulated in some way, or the person in question was in some trouble with the Gards, or there was personal beef. Not to mention the fear of him that was deliberately instilled into the local community. Not to mention his dark humour.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It is relevant because while many "know" and "believe" many do not know/believe as has been said here. So it really has the status of a rumour

    You just seem to want to argue with me no matter what I post

    I don't know why you define as "wanting to argue with you" the fact that i disagree with you. I don't see any evidence for this garda story



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    The point is that any of this hearsay 'evidence' would never make it to trial, regardless of how convinced different people are of its veracity. That's not saying that hearsay is not a factor in prosecutions, the conviction of some Limerick criminals proves it is, but that hearsay evidence must be incontrovertible in the context of other indisputable facts (or at least the 'courts' must accept something which unsurprisingly is very much not accepted by some people presently behind bars)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well yeah, that's what I mean when I say it's impossible to prove



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  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle




  • Registered Users Posts: 2 boldface


    Is there any possibility that the following applied to Marie Farrell:

    -Out late at night with someone she shouldn't have been with.

    -Saw the person by the Bridge

    -News of murder breaks and whoever her companion was said now listen Marie we can't say a word about that because it places us somewhere we shouldn't have been

    -Couple of weeks go by. She is consumed by guilt that she could help investigation and eventually can't take it and calls anon to crimecall

    -Following that things maybe get messy as guards start to use her and she gets caught in lies etc etc.

    But is there any belief that the very core of her information was true. It just seems so random to call in the first place otherwise. Someone who loved drama would have just gossiped about it in the locality and made sweeping assumptions but to insert herself into the narrative in the way she did never seemed logical to me. I mean in blunt terms someone killed this poor woman, so it's not beyond the realms that somebody might have spotted their escape from the scene. They didn't turn into vapour..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭dmc17


    Really does get you thinking about how they couldn't find a shred of forensic evidence at the scene despite their prime suspect offering samples to match with anything they might uncover



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not really, I think it's credible due to info from local people, but it wouldn't stand up in an Irish court.

    The French would enjoy it if they weren't so hellbent on nailing Bailey 🤭🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The problem is, who'd believe Marie Farrell? She lied, in court. walked out of a court proceeding and was also either coerced or otherwise blackmailed to make wrong statements. There is no clarity if she'd ever seen that man, if she was really in the car with another man other than her husband, nor if she'd really been out and about at this time of the night. And even if the man was Bailey she'd seen, it certainly doesn't prove he's the murderer, just by being out at night, at a considerable distance from Sophie's house. I'd say, anything regarding Marie Farrell can be excluded with utter certainty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,238 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Well worth a read. I quote this passage about the video of her arrival at the airport, Strangely enough there was a man in a dark coat a little behind her in the footage.

    'There was a lot of luggage for a couple of nights at your own holiday cottage. Most people keep some clothes and toiletries, hairdryer etc at their holiday cottages. So, what was all the luggage for?" "We hear that Sophie picked up a hire car (note: hire cars are usually filled up with fuel before they are collected), a Ford Fiesta and headed to Schull supermarket where she bought some groceries and a bottle of wine (obviously there was no wine in all that luggage). '

    This might indicate that the bottle discovered was brought by another?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Remember, back then, you could bring wine or liquids in you hand luggage. It was pre-islamic terrorism times back then. Also airlines were less picky if you had more than one suitcases, - at least an extra suitcase wasn't the price it's now. And then there is the possibility she brought something with her, with intention to leave it at the cottage, clothes for the spring, summer or some later trip during the year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,349 ✭✭✭MonkieSocks


    Marie Farrell and the invisable man.


    Retired detective garda Jim Fitzgerald.


    Mr Fitzgerald said he was in touch with Ms Farrell on several occasions to try to determine the identity of the man who she claimed she was with on the night she saw a man on Cealfada Bridge on the night of 22/23 December 1997.


    Mr Fitzgerald said from three pieces of information she had given him about the man over a couple of weeks he traced him as Jan Bartel from Longford.


    When he approached Ms Farrell to confront her with this information she eventually admitted it in Washington and then later tried to facilitate a meeting between the two.


    However, before one such meeting she claimed Mr Bartel had gotten cold feet.


    He later managed to arrange a meeting with Mr Bartel through a detective garda based in Longford.


    He said Mr Bartel had told him that he knew Ms Farrell well but had not seen her in years and that he was at a function with his wife on the night in question.


    Mr Fitzgerald said after a number of further meetings with Ms Farrell she admitted the man with her was not Mr Bartel, but that she could not reveal who it was because of personal problems.



    source;https://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0217/680842-bailey/

    =(:-) Me? I know who I am. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude (-:)=



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,238 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Ok but still it would be strange to put it in your packed hand luggage. Also why buy wine in the supermarket if you had some with you already?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    25 years onwards, it's a bit hard to ever get an answer to that one as with many things in this particular case. And even things which sound strange to us now could have had a perfectly easy explanation back then.

    Personally I once recall myself heading to the airport with my suitcase packed, stopped on the way at a supermarket to buy booze, put it into my hand luggage and of I went to some foreign destination. Could have been the same with Sophie or also it couldn't.

    We just have questions to all the unanswered things but no answers.

    If you ask me for my gut feeling about the case, Bailey didn't do it. I'd say it was either drugs related and somebody got coerced to kill her, or the horny guard from Bantry not getting sex that night or also in on the drugs trade, or the French lover/husband who felt rejected/wanting to avoid a divorce and sent a hitman.

    But that's just my gut feeling from what I've read/heard in the media and in this discussion board.

    An argument over property rights or boundary disputes or a dispute over a bottle of wine or who was using the bath tub in her absence is something I'd rule out as murder, - again my gut feeling.

    Two other lines of enquiries I would have considered: The wife of the husband who cheated with Sophie killed her, or somebody in France disagreeing with the content of the TV production work Sophie and her husband were doing. Two not very likely scenarios, but also not impossible.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,238 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    My quess is that it was someone(s) she knew and expected to have an argument with on her visit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,857 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    This.

    An impromptu visit at an usual time of the year.

    Asking to be accompanied by friends or relatives.

    She must have anticipated some sort of confrontation.

    Someone had alerted her of an issue with her property ( it was not the heating, as it had been fixed)

    Return flights originally booked for Monday, but changed by Sunday night to a later date,

    as her business was unfinished.

    Her unfinished business turned up at her gate or door on Monday morning. (probably gate)

    Sophie would have been the last person through the gate on Sunday evening.

    She would have ensured the yellow and red gates in the first picture ('gate') below were closed, as was her wont.

    The yellow (bloodstained) gate is the gate on the laneway marking the start of the shared right of way up to the 3 properties.

    The red gate is is a newly installed gate from the right of way into the lower part of Sophie's lawn.

    You can tell it's new by the fresh concrete haunch at the bottom pin and new, painted iron post. It's a permanent job.

    Both those gates are swung wide open in the crime scene photos.

    This points to someone opening and driving in through the yellow gate on the laneway and opening the red gate into Sophie's lawn.

    Sophie sees this from her house , puts on her boots and goes down her front lawn......

    So two questions;

    Why is the red gate gone in the second ('gap') picture taken much later?

    Who notified Sophie of what appears to me to be an encroachment onto her property?

    She would have no reason to have a gate put here that I can see.

    Gate;

    Gap;

    As someone said earlier in the thread;

    " When you hear hooves, think horses. not zebras"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,574 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    What I find interesting, and hadn't realized until I listened to the West Cork podcast, is that Farrell had already made a statement describing a man wearing a black coat outside her shop when Sophie was in there before her anonymous phone calls. My take is that she presumed that she'd be 'hot property' after that initial statement (which could well be a pack of lies - was there any verification that Sophie was in her shop?) and when that didn't happen, decided to make an anonymous phone call describing a similar man near the crime scene in order that she might receive the attention she felt she deserved for her original statement.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    She did I think, but her original statement describes someone who is definitely not Ian Bailey, and I think this was also backed up by someone else who described a similar man.

    I'd like to know more about George Pecout. Lived near sophie, shot himself in the head some time after the murder. Had a black coat.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    OK forget Pecout, did a bit of homework and apparently he had terminal cancer at the time of the murder. Looks like his suicide was to avoid a slower more painful death.

    He was immediately discounted as a suspect for this reason.



  • Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭flanna01



    The Guard first on the scene reported that the blood on Sophie's face / head, was still wet (not congealed yet). This indicates a recent death of no more than a few hours.

    Blood begins to congeal more or less straight away, otherwise the body would just bleed out.

    So the multiple traumas to Sophie's head would have produced many deep cuts and plenty of blood (as seen in pictures a few posts back).

    The Guard stated that the blood around the nose and mouth was still visibly wet, he made a note of this in his book.

    Assuming that Sophie had no medical disorder that prevented her blood from congealing, it points towards a morning murder.

    If this is the case, and I suspect it is.. How does that change things?

    Who would be roaming around West Cork in the middle of a winters night? In all probability they were driving a car (gate was open). There's not many horney Romeo's that chance their arm with a dame whilst she's eating her breakfast.. Like, would a man get a notion in the morning to take a spin over to that foreign birds house, see if he can charm the knickers off her... I know its West Cork, but even they have their limits.

    So who was in the vicinity, and what business had they around them parts that night? (basically the backend of nowhere).

    The only known people around that night were Alfie Lyons, Shirley Foster, Marie Farrell (allegedly), and The Invisible Man (allegedly).

    So what could have been going on around there?? It was Christmas time, was there a session going on in somebody's house nearby? Did one of the guests leave the party the following morning the worst for weir..??

    If there was a party going on at Alfie's house (which Bailey stated he seen lights on there after leaving the pub), would the revellers not have to pass Sophie's windows to get to the lane?

    The morning time window for the murder is relevant if correct.. It changes things significantly.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Agree. There's several pointers to a morning murder. I've never bought the middle of the night theory, they just stuck with it because it suited the Bailey narrative.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    After all that I've read, it's also my gut feeling that the murder took place in the early hours of the morning while it was still dark. Sophie had a reason for the trip, apparently to fix something in the house / the heating? Sophie's mind was probably still used to the time zone in France, so 6am in Ireland could easily have been 7am for Sophie, and she was probably up early. She could easily have finished breakfast by 6.45 am.

    If it was the horny Guard from Bantry, than a 7am visit to Sophie's house would not have been unusual, if the meeting was pre-aranged, and the Guard would have justified the time of the visit, that it was before his shift would start, - a credible excuse for Sophie to buy into..... It would also still have been under the cover of darkness, sunrise can be very slow in this latitude and would probably not come before 8.30 or 8.45 at the earliest.....

    Also, if the murder really took place in the morning, I'd suggest the reason for killing was not any form of sexual rejection. I also don't think that sex was on anybody's mind on that morning, and certainly the Guard couldn't suggest that, if he was at the beginning of his shift.....or let's say, it seems not very likely.

    So the motive to go to Sophie's was most likely not sex, but rather to talk to her about drug trafficking, - that is, if we're considering the horny Guard from Bantry in this theory..... And if the horny Guard from Bantry was in on the drug trafficking and didn't respond to Sophie's continued questions and statements, the conversation could easily have turned into an argument, resulting in the Guard losing his mind and grabbing a cavity block.....

    And before anybody goes again, yes, this one mentioned above is just a theory.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "Asking to be accompanied by friends or relatives

    She must have anticipated some sort of confrontation"

    When I read those lines you quoted, I consider that we have evidence from Irish and French witnesses that she knew Bailey and that she was going to have further interaction with him. She probably got bad vibes and was wary of him. It also looks like the installed gate was a work in progress. If I was a contractor who had just installed a gate and the lady that hired me had died and it was no longer obvious as to who was going to pay me, well then I`d be taking my gate back. That seems to be the most logical reason why the gate is gone. You are actually hearing hooves and thinking zebras.



This discussion has been closed.
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