The creeping prominence of the Irish language

I refuse to believe that - you just weren't trying hard enough. I'm sure if everything was taught through the medium of maths you'd have picked it up in to time at all.

Your response doesn't address my point the Irish language hasn't declined because of poor education methods, its declined because of various societal pressures, pressures that are only more intense in the era of an open Irish economy, social media,the Internet and cheap international travel.

The fact that Irish is the 2nd most spoken language in Ireland is absolutely meaningless. Even at that it's around 100k Irish speakers outside the education system versus more or less 5 million English speakers. The English language has in the region of 50 times the number of daily speakers in Ireland alone give or take. English is more than a useful language, its arguably the useful language as thevworld's 2nd language ie if a person is going to learn a second language there is a high chance it will be English. You can see that by the fact that the majority of English speakers are not native speakers.

Irish will never become the first language in Ireland. All your plan would do is to force people to make their choice of language explicit which will only ever to be Irish language detriment given the current social and international environment.

Teaching Irish in schools won't and hasn't stopped its decline. Its probably slowed the decline. However blaming bad teaching is a cop out on all sides. There are so too many outside factors that work against it no matter how high quality the teaching of the language. Its an easy way to ignore the societal pressures that encourage English versus Irish. It's been like like that for well over a hundred years. In modern Ireland with the Internet, open economy, cheap and fast international travel mean there is even less incentive.

Forcing all instruction in schools through Irish is a good way to damage the language even more if not kill it outright. You don't have enough teachers qualified to teach through Irish. And two most parents expect their children to be thought in their native language. Which are the vast majority of Ireland is English. Its the language that most children learn before school. They only encounter Irish in school and will never speak it meaningfully outside an educational setting.

You can't force people to do something they don't want to unless you turn the country into a police state.

@Hotblack Desiato that is true mind you it is also an issue locally with English secondary school and the science subjects. Some big out of the box thinking may need to be implemented - perhaps linking in with qualified teachers virtually, this would open up the pool of available teachers. I am aware of a couple of learners over the year who were facilitated by the local Secondary/FE college. Leaving Cert Chemistry, students attended a couple of classes a week at 8 am and an evening session. It wasn't delivered in their chosen language but at least it gave access to a subject mandated in a couple of university courses. I thought this was a clever approach.

Noisy Anglos is a welcome change from the well worn out "West Brit" term of abuse, beloved of language enthusiasts when caught out or a debate isn't going the way they like.

I know. I was more wondering how it could be claimed to be something people wanted.

Yeah, it's a typical Noisy Gael responce at this stage.

Not the lifeskill argument again!

This post, Wibbs' post and PeadarCo's post are generally well reasoned posts but they are blinkered and Wibbs comparing Irish to a "dumpy ex", I mean really!

There is the underlying assumption that the Irish person is a native English speaker. It completely bypasses the fact the native Irish speakers exist and that there is a rights issue involved here.

Yes native Irish speakers are a minority, yes they are a shrinking minority and yes they virtually all learn English to fluency inside and outside the Education system but that doesn't take from their fundamental right to function in a society that doesn't ignore their native tongue and our national tongue and doesn't treat them like outsiders in their own country.

This sentence misses the key point very slightly: "People tend to be more obsessed with the status of the language rather than the progression of it".

People are obsessed with the status of the speaker firstly and then the progression of the language. This is why the moderate middle-Irishperson view doesn't want to foist the language through draconian measures but still wants exposure to the language in solidarity with the speaker and perhaps to become a speaker themselves some day.

Jim, I think we need to define progress here.

You have to look at why that graduate mentioned she could speak Irish when she couldn't. What would make so many people do such a illogical thing? The answer is that these people leave school as aspirational Irish speakers.

Learning Irish in the English school system might get a dedicated student to A2 level tops. Learning Irish via the Gaelscoil movement might bring someone in the region of B1.

Neither of these is "fluent" in the context of a work interview (C1 minimum) and the school system will not achieve this and it isn't designed to achieve this.

What it is designed to do is to create connection and provide a foundation for lifetime learning. Most people don't take this up, fine, and that's for many reasons and not all of them are because "it's pointless".

A very common reason for adults taking up Irish classes is so that they can help their children with their Irish homework. Those people aren't perpetuating a "pointless" cycle, they are taking up those classes because they are re-establishing their own connection.

So where is the "progress"? The progress can be measured via output. Here are three examples.

1. Conversations - there is the possibilty to have Irish conversation allthroughout Ireland now, every county has local ciorcal comhra and gaelscoileanna.
2. Cultural output - you will see a Irish language dimension to new cultural / technological developments - it might be small, it might be niche but it's certainly there. Discord servers in Irish, Twitter and other social media in Irish, podcasts in Irish. Notice I'm picking examples that are not state sponsored.
3. Professionalisation - the digital resources in place are excellent for the learner and those who use Irish as a work language. It is another world compared with even 10 years ago.

No, not the lifeskill argument again, I was using it to reference something else.

Speakers of the Irish language have the same rights as everyone else - name one right that they don't have - the fact that their language is not the dominant language doesn't change that.

Where is that right not given?

There are four incidents on the list in 2020, most of which seem to be oversights with regard to information not being provided in both langauges. While I agree that the complaints are valid, I'd hardly argue that rights were being denied. Oversights happen, people are human - again, this is an offshoot of one language being the dominant language in terms of useage.

Would be interested to know if the criticisms were acccepted and recommendations were followed.