The creeping prominence of the Irish language

deirdremf · 26-10-2021 09:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045950#Comment_118045950

Yes, they do; but AFAIK it is quite common for young children in bilingual families to reply in the language they hear most around them. I understand that this is usually just a stage they go through.

deirdremf · 26-10-2021 09:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118051550#Comment_118051550

I'm not sure what you are accusing me of justifying. I have explained why the system doesn't work, I have not argued to retain that system.

If we want our kids to learn to speak Irish we need to provide them with an effective education, and the international evidence (including Irish evidence) is that immersion education (ie, Gaelscoileanna in the Irish case) is required to give our kids fluency in Irish if they do not speak it at home.

26-10-2021 11:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118073815#Comment_118073815

Yes - the overwhelming majority of the State spend on the Irish language goes to anyone except Irish enthusiasts. By the way, that isn't a bad thing in and of itself, because public policies should be implemented by professionals rather than enthusiastic amateurs. But that leads to money being chanelled through people who are merely phoning it in. State agencies who are merely ticking boxes and complying with the regs, for one example. Teachers who don't care, for another. They've already been referenced in this thread.

When it comes to the delivery of any public policy objective, there will almost always be different opinions about the validity of the policy objective itself - otherwise we wouldn't have competing political parties and platforms. But it's quite common for there to be agreement about how well or badly the policy is being implemented.

In the case of Irish, the noisy Anglos and the Irish enthusiasts will disagree about what is and isn't desirable when it comes to Irish language policy. But there's more agreement than you might think about whether the money that is being spent is being spent well or wasted. The noisy Anglos have a simple answer: don't spend the money. The Irish enthusiasts have a more complicated answer: spend it better. But that means that Irish enthusiasts can let themselves off the hook and blame the gubbmint for the fact that Irish isn't more widely spoken. If they have any better ideas, let's see them put them into action. If money is a barrier to trying out the idea, let them make a case to government that they have a better way of using some of the money, and let the government divert some of what they're currently spending and pilot the idea. If it works, they're on to a winner. If it doesn't, at least they tried - and the Irish enthusiasts can't continue to pin the rap on officialdom.

26-10-2021 11:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077657#Comment_118077657

Someone did a "back of a fag packet" calculation for me at the weekend (yes, there was drink taken). At most, a typical Irish person who goes through a typical Irish school career will, at a stretch, get 1,200 hours of being taught Irish. Even if we assume that this is genuine contact (it often isn't), and even if we add some more for children doing some homework and revision outside school (they often don't), they might get that figure up to 1,800 or so.

That's a really generous estimate of 1,800 hours of exposure to Irish by the time they're 18. And if they grow up in a household with English-speaking parents and go to mainstream schools, they'll have been exposed to something like 90,000 hours of English. If we think the schools can solve problem for us - at least as they are currently set up - we're kidding ourselves.

26-10-2021 11:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118073994#Comment_118073994

I've met older Irish speakers who struggle with English, and I've met younger speakers for whom English is a second language, but the only people under 30 I've met who struggled with English were a very small number of young kids. I was told at the weekend that there are currently some 500 Irish-speaking children under 5 (mainly in the Gaeltacht) who have had no or very limited contact with English, and who will not get contact with English until they start school. I should note that this information came without a source or reference, although I've no particular reason to doubt the person who told me.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 27-10-2021 07:49AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077937#Comment_118077937

On the face of it, I'd agree with what you're saying.

By the way, it looks like your phone is autocorrecting something to 'noisy anglos' every time your write it though. Might want to proofread next time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 27-10-2021 07:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077657#Comment_118077657

We have neither the will nor the resources.

Again - if we can't teach Irish effectively in Irish, why should we expand it to all the other subjects?

youtheman · 27-10-2021 09:48AM

I spent 14 years 'learning' the Irish Language. At the end of it I couldn't put 2 sentences together, or understand a word. Furthermore I hated the language, mostly due to the deep frustration I felt when they tried to teach me something that I just couldn't 'get'. I obviously had no talent for this language, or indeed any other language, and I was in no way motivated. But I think the 'root cause' is that it is very hard to learn a language in a classroom environment (only).

I'm always amazed that if you meet a teenage German (for example) they can speak fluent English, and we spend more time studying Irish and we can't even get the basics right (I know I am tarring us all with the same brush here a little).

Talk about the laws of unintended consequences. The Brits tried to ban Irish centuries ago and it made it more popular. In more recent times they have made learning Irish compulsory, and made it less popular.

I think we need to accept that Irish, while it might be a European language, it is not a 'Language of Commerce'. So it will have a limited audience.

In schools, I think all young students should be exposed to 'Irish Language Appreciation' classes. Then those that want to continue Irish studies should be exposed to it (using whatever techniques are considered to be the best). Those who don't should have the option of giving it up. I don't think the model of compulsory Irish until 18 years is really working. So we can dedicate the resources to those who are motivated to learn it.

On a practical level, when I drive from Cork to Kerry and come on a dangerous bend and I see the words 'Go Mall' painted on the road I say to myself "what it that really doing for road safety?".

CGI_Livia_Soprano · 29-10-2021 07:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118078965#Comment_118078965

Literally every single Irish language discussion cliche all rolled up into one post, down to the "language of commerce" line. Amazing.

29-10-2021 07:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091726#Comment_118091726

Smoke, fire and all that jazz

Upforthematch · 29-10-2021 09:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118078965#Comment_118078965

I know that road from Cork to Kerry. When you see those words 'go mall' on the road you're actually driving through the Cork Gaeltacht! By learning what 'go mall' means in school, there's a practical benefit for you!

But on a serious note, most people leave school with an A1/2 basic level of Irish, that's the equivalent of learning 500-1000 words. To be fluent at B2 level you need to know between 5000-8000 words, so realistically most people are a long way off having meaningful conversations by the time they leave school. No overnight miracles are going to happen through the school system.

Back on topic though, interesting words from Michael D today in this article:

https://tuairisc.ie/ta-se-in-am-na-laigi-ata-sa-statseirbhis-o-thaobh-na-gaeilge-de-a-leigheas-uachtaran-na-heireann/

TLDR: He was showing the German President around the set of Ros na Rún Tv Soap celebrating 25 years of TG4 and he called out the public service for not providing proper services through Irish.

Two things of interest here;

"Official" Ireland still prides out of Irish to foreign dignatories. There was something recently about Macron receiving a menu lately in Irish and French only as well. As long as this continues, how can the government realistically pull back resources or schooling in Irish?
Kick up the ass message from Michael D will mean that the creeping prominence will continue to grow. Even if that is only box-ticking, then the level of box-ticking and the number of boxes to tick will continue to increase too. I would prefer genuine engagement but it's still going in the right direction.

01-11-2021 05:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118078403#Comment_118078403

Thanks. I put something into my dictionary as a keyboard shortcut way of typing "intellectually lazy and culturally narrow-minded monolingual English speakers". Unfortunately the shortcut doesn't work, and it seems like a waste of energy to type the long version out when the short version does the same task so competently. So noisy Anglos it is. I really appreciate your kind and thoughtful input, all the same.

Strumms · 01-11-2021 07:05PM

I wonder, given the choice, what percentage of students would drop Irish for the leaving in favor of say a second science subject ?

that would be an interesting poll to have the results of...

i think about 70% might opt to do say physics & chemistry // biology & chemistry // physics & biology...etc.

its going to have a greater benefit to ‘most’ students from an education & career standpoint.....so why would you study hard at a difficult enough language, that 90% of us will never ‘require’ so much as a syllable of in our adult lifetime ?

It’s a labor intensive subject, it’s not easy to learn.

riclad · 02-11-2021 01:20AM

If you wish to advance your career it makes more sense to study a science subject or a modern language than waste 100s of hours studying Irish , if you live in a city you may never meet another fluent Irish speaker unless you look for them. Or spend time doing a basic pc course, learning excel , ms word, etc I think maybe 3 per cent of people speak Irish after secondary school unless they become a teacher

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-11-2021 02:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103258#Comment_118103258

I see your point. Shoehorning "intellectually lazy and culturally narrow-minded monolingual English speakers" three times into every post must be tiring. Have you consdiered hotkeys?

Anyway, back on topic...

rock22 · 02-11-2021 08:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103258#Comment_118103258

Your approach to spreading the Irish language to those who cannot speak it is to insult them and call them names?

You're not an Irish teacher from my school of the 60's are you?

Because your approach brings back memories, none of them happy, about trying to learn Irish in school.

Evade · 02-11-2021 10:57AM

Imagine thinking because you don't speak Irish you mustn't speak anything other than English, talk about culturally narrow minded.

CGI_Livia_Soprano · 02-11-2021 11:47AM

Monolingual English speakers from Ireland view the world from an extremely narrow prism, thinking that everyone "hasta" speak English and they refuse to believe that there are actual native speakers of Irish.

From their point of view native Irish speakers not only are an anomoly in Ireland, they don't exist and the wants and needs of tax-paying Irish-speaking citizens of this country are to be ignored and mocked. You would be taken more seriously if you suggested a unicorn protectionism drive.

For an English speaker from Ireland, Irish is only a school subject to be endlessly debated and something for the Irish speaker to beg recognition for. "Tell me more why we should learn Irish if it doesn't get you a job with the multinationals, Seamus" the English speaker drawls, sprawled out on a velvet Ottoman sofa, "you'll never convince me if you're not nice about it."

02-11-2021 12:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118106335#Comment_118106335

Quite an imagination you have there

You miss the biggest issue Irish people have with the Irish language, the way its taught

A personal example, I spent the same many years as others learning Irish and could barely string a sentence together when I left school such was my confusion with the language.

I went on to Uni where I took up Spanish as a new language and within 3 months I could speak more of it than I could in Irish. The approach taken in Uni was this, it doesnt matter if you cant speak perfectly, so long as the other person can understand what you are trying to say.

CGI_Livia_Soprano · 02-11-2021 12:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118106455#Comment_118106455

Yeah that has nothing to do with Irish in public spaces. That's just your own neuroses.

The fact of the matter is that Irish speakers are citizens of this country just like English speakers, and Irish is an Official Language of Ireland. Irish speakers never impose their language on anyone else and constantly need to battle English speakers in order to have their own rights as Irish speakers recognised. It is impossible for Irish speakers to have any conversation about their own rights as Irish speakers without monolingual English speakers blundering in, hoisting up their trousers to their armpits and moaning about Peig, or "de way its taught", or that roadsigns in Irish make their feelings hurt.

English speakers should learn that the Department of Education's Irish language curriculum doesn't represent Irish speakers and leave Irish speakers the **** alone.

Evade · 02-11-2021 01:32PM

Has anyone here advocated not letting Irish speakers speak Irish among themselves? Most people here seem perfectly happy to let you speak a dying language amongst yourselves.

02-11-2021 01:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118106585#Comment_118106585

The fact of the matter is that Irish speakers are citizens of this country just like English speakers

Has anyone claimed otherwise? Nope

Irish is an Official Language of Ireland

Ok?

Irish speakers never impose their language on anyone else

The 13 years forced studying of the language is what if not an imposition?

It is impossible for Irish speakers to have any conversation about their own rights as Irish speakers without monolingual English speakers blundering in, hoisting up their trousers to their armpits and moaning about Peig, or "de way its taught", or that roadsigns in Irish make their feelings hurt.

As you say, "That's just your own neuroses"

leave Irish speakers the **** alone.

That's surprisingly easy given how few of you there are

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-11-2021 03:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118106585#Comment_118106585

"It is impossible for Irish speakers to have any conversation about their own rights as Irish speakers"

---- Exactly what rights are you talking about here?

02-11-2021 11:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118105190#Comment_118105190

If some people here would make an effort to increase their intellectual activity and broaden their cultural horizons a wee bit, I wouldn't need any dictionary or keyboard tricks.

Anyway, as you'd say yourself, back on topic...

02-11-2021 11:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118105421#Comment_118105421

I know a great many people who can't speak Irish. It's only the noisy Anglos who get called noisy Anglos.

I wasn't teaching waaaaay back in the 1960s, but in any case I'm not responsible for your bad memories.

03-11-2021 12:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103646#Comment_118103646

I think most students if given the choice would go for something perceived as "easy", or something perceived as "lucrative" in terms of points. A few years ago the system identified a problem with the numbers doing higher level Mathematics, so a bonus scheme was introduced to give an extra 25 CAO points to those who did higher level and scored above a certain grade. Apparently it achieved the desired outcome.

If the system thinks learning Irish is a desirable outcome, but at the same time many people don't like it and don't wish it to be compulsory, perhaps the best way to "an dá thrá a fhreastal" (in English, to achieve conflicting objectives) would be to introduce a bonus scheme for higher level Leaving Cert Irish, while at the same time removing the mandatory requirement to sit the subject. That might work, though I suspect it would only work well if the LC programme was re-designed a bit to emphasise proper conversational ability - and of course it would also mean a continued need for Irish in the primary and Junior Cycle systems.

It would mean that those who wanted to put in the time and effort in Irish could do so and be rewarded, while those who'd prefer to avoid the language would no longer be required to study it, and could pick something else instead.

Not for the first time in this thread I would make the point that I'm not offering this as a proposal. I'm just pointing out an example (not the first) of a reasonable measure the system could evaluate and take to genuinely foster and encourage the Irish language among young people while offering an exit route for those who would rather not engage with it as a language or a school subject. I'd really like to see more young people attracted to the language and incentivised to use it, and I'm perfectly happy to see those who really want to avoid it given the opportunity to do so. Of course, I want those things to happen simultaneously - which I recognise won't be enough for you-know-who.

riclad · 03-11-2021 12:22AM

I find it hard to believe Irish people cannot speak basic English as 95 per cent of TV radio media is English , of course someone could just speak Irish at home and their children would grow up speaking Irish but it seems that would be cruel to the child if they had no knowledge of English

A young person would have to avoid a media apart from tg4 in order to avoid English why would they do that. and of course most children speak English

I'm not an expert but I think there's very little emphasis on speaking Irish, eg student read books and story's in Irish but I don't know how Irish is taught after 2000 when I was at school. The teachers just read out parts of books and the books we read were like Peig all about miserable farming people eg no connection to modern life

I can't imagine trying to learn pc software programming or engineering if you could not read English

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-11-2021 09:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110579#Comment_118110579

THIS is why I suggested dropping it as an exam subject and you got uppity and started throwing insults around the place: if people are doing it for extra CAO points, they aren't doing it the betterment of the language. Also, too much of a value of an unnesecary feature (assuming it's not a career that needs Irish, unlike teaching, in whcih case, fair enogh, I'd agree with you) the best people for the courses aren't actually getting the positions.

If you're going to harp on about "making an effort to increase... intellectual activy" then you kinda have to start losing the arrogance first.

Evade · 03-11-2021 12:16PM

Students who are talented an passionate about Irish already have the option to score bonus leaving cert points by sitting their exam in Irish.

Strumms · 03-11-2021 02:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112139#Comment_118112139

which in itself is bollocks... if you sit the Geography exam, say honors. Your reward for the exam is the grade achieved ... nothing else.. you answer the questions correctly, you get a grade for your performance.extra marks for the language it’s sat in ? Bollocks !

id like to see somebody take a legal case... I’d imagine hands down they’d win as its actually discriminatory..

The creeping prominence of the Irish language

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