The creeping prominence of the Irish language

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045560#Comment_118045560

Never insulted you, just pointed out your post was sentimental wishy washy nonsense

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045662#Comment_118045662

Isn't it a good thing that most people are not taking out court cases? Highly confrontational and costly.

Instead what we are seeing is a "creeping prominence of the Irish language", which is obviously hitting a nerve as it is.

My point is that we need that turn that trickle into a stream to get the public services fully functioning. That's not an overnight job but the latest Irish language act requiring 20% of new hires in the public service to be Irish speakers is a step in the right direction.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045618#Comment_118045618

I agree Deirdre, there's definitely a gap here. The old numbers argument is irrelevant now thanks to online courses.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045731#Comment_118045731

I don't like the fact that the courts seem to be the only way to get things done here but that's the system here.

Unless a cupla focail will get you into the public service that doesn't seem like a realistic target.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045618#Comment_118045618

Take my own case. I speak Irish to my children; but when they move out, I may no longer be a daily speaker, as my OH doesn't speak Irish. According to some here, I will no longer qualify as an Irish speaker as a result!

Sorry if this seems like a mad question, and feel free not to answer, but do your children reply in Irish?

I ask because I was in the city centre last Friday, and a woman walked by me holding the hand of a small child (I'd guess 5 or 6). For about 5 or 6 sentences I heard what they were saying to each other. The woman spoke in Polish and the child spoke in English. There was such a flow to what they were saying that it couldn't have been anything other than a conversation. I'd heard of the phenomenon among immigrant families, but it was the first time in my life I'd witnessed it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045662#Comment_118045662

You did, and as reasonably as I could I explained why it wasn't a good suggestion. If I want a service I want a service, not a sodding lawsuit. By the time you'd get a court case out of the way, you'd have won, cost the State loads of money, and got a service a couple of years after you needed it (if you were lucky). People do it, and if I wasn't getting a service I wanted I'd do it, but it's not a good way to do business for the citizen, the service agency or the taxpayer - so suggesting that it is a good way to do business is only gonna make people think you're the proverbial one-legged man in a chocolate teapot kicking contest.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045755#Comment_118045755

For some courses, definitely; but for the more practical ones you need to a teacher to be physically present to show you what you're doing wrong. I've done online art courses, done everything as explained, but still got a less than satisfactory result. Also, a lot of people do courses for social interaction as much as the course itself.

I see the issue though: but training every course teacher to speak Irish is impractical and also going to put a lot of skilled teachers off (not to metnion students - if I'm doing a cookery course, I want the best cooking teacher, not someone who's a bad teacher but a good Irish speaker - so what then are the solutions if the numbers genuinely aren't there?

TimeUp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967420#Comment_117967420

I think lessons for those who are really interested in the language is a good call. Be it alone or extra, I'm sure it must be much easier to concentrate and benefit from a lesson when you're surrounded by people who have the same passion as you rather than by people who spend these lessons simply dozing off or messing.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045953#Comment_118045953

I thought you were trying to leave me out of it?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118046900#Comment_118046900

👍️

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045982#Comment_118045982

Absolutely, the teacher needs to be suitably qualified in the subject in order to give the class and practical courses don't work online I agree.

What would work well are courses that work well online in any language, I'm thinking local history, GIY, journalism, social media, marketing, training, lifecoaching, tourism, start your own business, community studies, digital photography, translation skills, literature, music appreciation etc... Surely there are fluent Irish speakers that would be qualified give an online night class in some of those topics a few weeks a year? An online class would only hold a dozen students or so anyway so it wouldn't be that hard to fill.

I think there are about 10 organisations offering zoom classes to learn Irish as it is, so the infrastructure is there to branch out a bit to give people an opportunity to keep up the Irish they have while enjoying a different area they're passionate about.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041264#Comment_118041264

Your response demonstrates perfectly the problem. The teaching and promotion of Irish over past 100 years has been an utter failure. Now there is a choice to be made, continue justifying it as you do and let the decline continue or face up to it and take radical steps to redress the situation.

My money is on plodding along and after the next 100 years it will be a dead language.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041325#Comment_118041325

The teacher and the classroom will not make it happen, there is no motivation for people to learn, it is not relevant to their lives. The whole approach is killing the language!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118051359#Comment_118051359

It would have to be a dozen students with the ability and desire to also do said course in Irish though.

I'd totally support idea provided the demand was there. But I'm against the idea of implementing vast and complicated procedures on the basis that there might be demand later.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118053198#Comment_118053198

Courses can't run without students. It's obvious really.

On the one hand you have @Jim2007 saying in the previous post that the old methods don't work and are irrelevant and that you need something new and innovative to attract people and on the other hand it's proving a struggle for you to support a trial in online night courses for which there would be at least 80,000 potential fluent students (i.e. counted, daily Irish speakers)!

I think on both sides of the argument "the heart" is running the show. That's not a bad thing, it will certainly create long debates on boards.ie anyway!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118055659#Comment_118055659

You'd sometimes wonder whether the State should pilot a scheme where they give the existing Irish language community with some money for a few years and say "let's see what results you lot can get". Could the outcome be any worse than we've seen to date?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118055659#Comment_118055659

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118055963#Comment_118055963

Well, any good idea needs to be checked for demand before, and this is no different. Checking for demand is the easy bit. I have no problem with trailing online night courses in Irish - the problem I have is going full-on and using up resources and money without trailing it first. Do one or two subjects you think would be the most likely to attact Irish speakers or where the teaching talent is already there and expand from there if it's a success.

Jim can be a bit of a hardliner for my tastes, but he has a point when he says the old methods don't work, but I don't think that's relevant to evening courses where the language ability as already there.

@Ulysses - I think you'll find we've been doing that repeadly and the results are billingual roadsigns. They can probably only do so much with a largely apathetic population, though.

iffandonlyif

This isn’t an example of creeping prominence, because it’s been this way for decades, but the Leaving Cert results sheet gives priority to Irish and is deceptively difficult to read.

The pre2000 results sheet had the two versions on different sides, I think.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118056717#Comment_118056717

If the State itself is taking an approach that is failing - and many Irish speakers would agree that it is - then the State could always put it up to the Irish speakers and say "righto, you're the enthusiasts, let's see if you lot can do any better". But clearly, it wouldn't make sense to jump in and do that, hence the notion of piloting an approach first. If the Irish enthusiasts can make better use of some money in a pilot scheme than the State agencies normally do, that points a way towards getting more efficient and effective results. On the other hand, if the Irish language enthusiasts can't, then they can't claim that the State itself is the cause of the policy failure.

I appreciate that almost anything that is done to promote or develop the Irish language will meet with apathy, ignorance or hostility from the noisy Anglos. That's their view, and they're entitled to it. But I've never given a **** what they think, and I don't plan to start now. I'm a taxpayer, this is important to me, and I want it done and done well.

riclad

Language is used to talk to people , if 95 per cent of people you know speak only English you, ll speak English too maybe everyone in the Gaeltacht speak Irish all the time I doubt it

We grow up learning English with no effort that's reality the difference is everyone in France speaks French Spanish people speak Spanish learning French Spanish will give you extra work opportunity's if you wish to work in an international company

schools have limits on time and resources should they spend more time money teaching Irish than say physics history maths etc ? and maybe theres not many teachers that are really fluent and skilled in teaching Irish no matter what decisions the government takes Re the language

So right now I can see no big rise in the no of people speaking Irish outside schools in a time when the government is facing immense challenges , inflation, supply side crisis. Housing crisis climate crisis fuel price rises etc

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118073017#Comment_118073017

But who's getting the money right now? People who aren't Irish enthusiasts...?

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118028991#Comment_118028991

That's not true. I have spent some time in Connemara and I have recently met native Irish speakers there who genuinely struggle to speak English, aged under 30.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118073994#Comment_118073994

Given you will hear(and read) more English in Ireland on a daily basis including within Gaeltacht areas, especially in the tourist season how in god's name does someone under 30 today genuinely struggle to speak English? As a teenager going fishing with my dad in the 80's all over the West and in Gaeltacht areas I certainly encountered a couple of old people he knew from back in the day(this was in Achill) whose English was faltering at times, with a cupla focal thrown in, but even then the kids my own age were fluent English speakers. I find it hard to believe that someone under 30 these days with mass media being more massive and even intrusive and almost entirely in english in this country could be struggling.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118073994#Comment_118073994

Jaysus they must have very sheltered lives.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

While I'm not thinking sheltered, I'd love to know where said person went to school.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074568#Comment_118074568

It's possible. If someone grew up in an exclusively Irish speaking family in a majority Irish speaking small community and attended both primary and secondary through Irish, never went to any sort of third level and only really engaged with Irish media, books, TG4 and the like. I can't imagine someone like that is anything but an absoluetly tiny minority though.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074659#Comment_118074659

Honestly, that would be a very irresponsible way to raise a child especially if they can't interact with anyone outside of the local community. Poor fecker would have a tiny amount of jobs they could go for and even when you look at something like dating they would have a tiny pool of people who they could communicate with

whisky_galore

Maybe it's a Gaeltacht version of the Amish.

marieholmfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118073994#Comment_118073994

How much under thirty?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074659#Comment_118074659

English is a core part of the curriculum though, for better or for worse. And, as someone above said, how they managed to avoid all forms of media for said thirty years.

I mean, pre-internet - sure But today..?