Poland to be fined €1 million daily by EU for not suspending controversial 'disciplinary chamber'

Almost like they were different issues almost

Except that post isn't particularly anti-EU. It's against what the EU has evolved into...

I'm extremely pro-EU, but at the same time, I don't like what it's becoming. It was once an economic organisation with the solid intention of protecting the interests of European countries. Now, it's trying to become the UN, making judgments and enforcing those judgments on cultural and moral issues, well beyond the economic aspects. Hell, if they were doing such a great job on the economic front, I'm perhaps be more understanding, but they haven't been doing so good for a long time now.

Being critical of the EU doesn't make someone anti-EU.... and there may very well come a time when Ireland is punished for policies that the EU considers unacceptable. There's quite a few topics that are changing in the views of European nations which are open for conflict, especially for topics such as immigration, and citizenship. The EU could easily decide to pass judgment over such things, and would you be as dismissive then?

You don't understand anything about the need for Independence of the Judiciary and separation of powers in Government.

Here the E.U. are serving the interests of the Citizens of Poland better than their own populist Politicians.

Perhaps Poland should reconsider their membership of the European Union.

The EU Commission, who wield the lion's share of the power and who are the sole body to propose legislation, are appointed.

How would you feel if, rather than having an elected Irish Government, the entire cabinet was appointed and each member of that cabinet could not be directly removed via the democratic process?

I wouldn't be happy.

The EU have gotten away with it because Brussels feels very distant. When we apply the EU principles of "democracy" closer to home, we would never accept it.

In fact, Jean-Claude Juncker had to lose an election in his home country before he was appointed as a member of the EU Commission.

If that's not antithetical to democracy, I don't know what is.

And this kind of EU bullying of Poland will not be tolerated; of that I'm sure.

The Council of the EU nominates Commissioners - with approval from the EU President.

The system is set up to ensure that only "the right kind of Commissioner" makes their way to the top; where they can propose legislation for the EU 27.

Again, this is not a system we would adopt in our own country precisely because we can see how manipulative and anti-democratic (and corrupt) it can become.

It's no different at the higher level of the European Union.

Appointed Commissioners, who do not have to face a direct electorate, are antithetical to democracy.

What's more is that, once appointed, they cannot be removed via the democratic system.

In fact, in 2015, Jean-Claude Juncker said, "...there can be no democratic choice against the European treaties".

Don't take my word for it, listen to those at the very heart of this necrotic system.

Attacking the man and not the ball is the weakest form of argument.

You need to understand when somebody doesn't want to engage with a disingenuous time sink. good night.

Now, that's utter rubbish. The idea that there is such a separation between legislature and judiciary, and even if it ever existed previously, that it could be maintained after the development of democracy/government and the expansion of political power over the electorate or other institutions that were supposed to maintain any kind of independence..

The moment after a country forms a democracy, politicians begin increasing and protecting their positions of power/influence. And it's not just politicians, but public servants that do that too. It's basic human nature. That's the same in every Western nation, and depending on the country in question, the effect has been greater or lesser, but it's still there nonetheless.

The attempts by the EU to influence a nations internal policy is an extension of the power plays of the politicians, by taking power away from the electorate of that nation (or its public servants) and putting it in the hands of those who are not within the influence of that nations electorate.

Which is why the referendums that chose entry to the EU didn't cover all of these implications, but for most, were about the joining of an economic zone. Most of these changes came after the people voted.. Sure, politicians had their hands in accepting the changes on behalf of the people.. but that simply comes back to the first point. The erosion of the electorates power in a democracy.

It's a bit silly to be so blindly anti-EU to the point that you'd take Poland's side on this. It's real 'the enemy of your enemy is not always your friend' territory.

Again.. criticism of EU policies is not automatically the same as being anti-EU. Nor should it ever be that way, otherwise democracy and western thought is dead, and we've all returned to an authoritarian system where criticism is squashed.

I believe that European nations need an organisation similar to the EU. There are too many ways in which other continental powers, (whether it's Russia, China, the US, or the Arab states), can hurt Europe, through Trade or diplomacy. There needs to be an united European front. However, what the EU has evolved into.. I'm not quite sure that's what's needed, and in many ways, is actually causing quite a bit of harm to European nations. I still want the EU to be there... I simply want them moving in a different direction, with different aims.

As for taking Poland's side on this... I haven't decided yet. I'm willing to see where it leads Poland before condemning them. I'd be of the opinion that many of the alternatives, that people seem to want to be pushing, haven't been working out that well either. So.. I'd wait and see. It's not as if this isn't something that couldn't be rolled back at a future date without too much trouble.

Honestly, I'd favour the EU taking action against both Hungary and Poland. They agreed to follow certain principles when they joined, violating them means that they should have sanction. Sort of telling which posters are leaping to defend countries that are taking steps towards totalitarianism and are frequently attacking the rights of their citizens.

The Minister was elected as a TD, that's the difference.

Commissioners are unelected appointees who are the sole arbiters of proposing legislation for the EU.

I blame this thead on Civics not being taught properly in School.