The creeping prominence of the Irish language

the century long top down cultural imposition of the Irish language

You see, this is where the problem lies with your outlook - unless you consider every decision by government to be a top down imposition.

The Government makes lots of choices, and we don't have to agree with them - but when a government is voted in and makes a policy, we all have to lap it up, like it or not. This doesn't make it top down imposition in the sense most people understand the term.

Back in 2011, the FG party wanted to make Irish optional after the Junior Cert - and although they got lots of votes and way more seats than anyone else, they didn't get enough to implement that policy.

So go away with your top down imposition; what we have is very definitely there by popular demand, or at least with general support.

A school in Kerry has changed from teaching through English to teaching through Irish.

Admittedly, the school was in danger of closing down due to small pupil numbers, and it is in the Education Minister's constituency, which might have helped in some small way.

Still, the rebranding has brought numbers up from 10 last year to twenty this year, so the demand was obviously not being met in the area.

At some point you have to stand back and say that "you need x hours to be fluent" is a bit of a moot point. The hours have to be quality and the student has to be willing. If those situations aren't being met, 2500 or 5000 hours doesn't really matter. As you say yourself in the post following the one quoted above "many primary teachers are very poor at Irish". So at this point the problem changes.

Regarding the census forms - I thought they were English one side Irish on the other...? If not, I'd support them being such.

The general population's attitude to Irish is like that of the dog in the manger of Aesop's Fable. They won't use it, but neither will they give it up. Faintly ridiculous.

None of that proves that there aren't enough Irish speakers - to provide services to Irish speakers. However, as we are able to find Polish speakers, Latvian speakers, Romanian speakers and a long list of others to provide us with services in English, I think it is foolish to point to that 1.7 million people and then say we don't have enough Irish speakers to provide services in Irish. By all means, say that we don't have enough trained Irish speakers in all the various fields at present - but that statement then leaves open the possibility of training people to provide those services.

For instance, as I understand it, there are something over 50,000 people living in the Faroe Islands - do you think that they are unable to provide services in Faroese to the population of the archipelago?

Now I expect that you'll come back with something along the lines of "But ... but ... Irish/Ireland ... is different ... because" and will finish up with some inane non-reason as to why it is impossible.

But we all know that the only reason that it is impossible is because the country is organised in such a way as to make it impossible. For the last 100 years, we have been trying to tack Irish onto a system that functions through English. By this stage most people realise that this doesn't work, but there are no imaginative proposals as to how the system could be changed, ie organised differently, in such a way as to make what is possible elsewhere possible here.

Precisely. If the course isn't fit for purpose, or if the teaching is not up to standard, then the contact hours are not there.

Why shouldn't Irish be treated "like a core part of our internal systems"?

It's a rights issue, it's our national language and not comparable to your model collection because it is not a hobby.

I would have preferred to learn code in school than learning English literature but there you go. Irish & English language education are part and parcel of education in Ireland. The "choice" argument shouldn't be thrown at one at the expense of the other.

If the Irish language had the general support you seem to believe it does far more of a percentage of our population would be able to speak it and speak it fluently. They don't. If the Irish language had the general support you seem to believe it does we wouldn't have seen the continuous even accelerated drop off in its usage amomg Irish people throughout the 20th century. Yet we did.

Fair questions on the face of it - but for instance, when the government removes one support after another then it is left to the individual. Furthermore as we know in other fields, the market is a sort of a steam roller. Look at another situation - Brussels. Traditionally a Dutch-speaking city, only a small minority there today are native Dutch speakers. Dutch is the majority language in Belgium with huge support from the State and a wide range of official bodies, yet it has become marginalised in the capital city. Despite all the support available, and despite services actually existing in Dutch.

If the Irish language had the general support you seem to believe it does then how did FG get "lots of votes and way more seats than anyone else"? Though the language was almost certainly low down that list ....

You have answered your question by stating the language was low down the list of priorities in 2011 - the economy was down the toilet, people were struggling, emigration was huge. People castigated FF by voting FG and Labour. Nonetheless,

As I said earlier we have an odd and often contradictory attitude to the language. On the one hand we might say it would be a shame to lose it, on the other a small minority actually use it as a language. The very reason for its existence. You do a straw poll on an Irish street and you'd almost certainly get a fair percentage saying isn't it great we have our native language, but try the same question on the same street as Gaelige and see how many can answer you. And "Ni thuigim an ceist" doesn't count. 😁

Yes, we do have a contradictory attitude. However it takes time and effort to become fluent in another language, so those that have not managed to become fluent in Irish while at school are at a huge disadvantage, given that they have to earn a living, bring up children and so on - and carry on their normal life which generally means speaking to their friends, family and neighbours in a language that both sides of the conversation are comfortable in. Or even just due to inertia - in any social context, it is my experience that most people stick to the language they first used with someone else, unless something happens to make them change to a different language, like for instance when a new French-speaking immigrant might find people with some French in the initial period, but as the immigrant becomes more familiar with English and more at ease in the language, they might later change to speaking English. Or Irish; I know quite a few immigrants in Conamara and Corca Dhuibhne who have learned Irish and have become completely fluent in the language.

According to your figures, 18% of the population are active speakers of Irish. And you think that there are not enough people in the country to provide services in Irish?

On top of which you insult me. It is clear that you have issues, maybe you should deal with them rather than spouting hatred on the internet.

If a "train the trainer" model was offered through Irish it could help people like me even get involved

We are told that there are not enough people available who speak Irish, yet the census tells us that 18% of people actively speak Irish. However this isn't good enough for some: unless you speak Irish every day, they seem to think your Irish isn't up to scratch. And of course maybe for some it isn't - but being trained up apparently is fine for English speakers, or immigrants with English as a second language. But not for Irish speakers, apparently.

Take my own case. I speak Irish to my children; but when they move out, I may no longer be a daily speaker, as my OH doesn't speak Irish. According to some here, I will no longer qualify as an Irish speaker as a result!