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Taiwan V China. Its getting very feisty between these two at the moment.

  • 05-10-2021 7:58pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,297 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    China flying jets over Taiwan and Taiwan flying jets around too. Sure China could take over Taiwan in an instant but would it be bad for the World? Would America or Biden do anything about it?

    I would like to see Taiwan remain independent and maybe visit it in the future sometime but I am not so sure that's what China wants. They say its part if them and they want it back. Could get bad this if it turns into a hot war.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Fiery mutant


    Edit: double post, which then edited both posts. Not writing it all again. In effect, war bad, China bad, long live Taiwan.

    We should defend our way of life to an extent that any attempt on it is crushed, so that any adversary will never make such an attempt in the future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Taiwan have a huge amount of semiconductor facilities, most of the worlds computer chips are made there. Almost all the bleeding edge stuff is.

    The PRC taking control of all this would be a huge blow, as those semiconductor fabs are a big strategic asset that most of the world relies on. If it did come to it, the PRC would take Taiwan without the US interfering. Biden doesnt have the stones



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,527 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    I think the US announcing massive investment in domestic fabrication plants and the need to reduce reliance on Taiwan is a sure sign of things to come. It might be a long time off yet, but the signs are ominous.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Sofia Dirty Popgun


    I'm not sure China could conquer Taiwan so easily.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Taiwan would not roll over, but PRC's numerical superiority, aircraft carriers etc would surely win out.

    Their repeated incursions into Taiwanese airspace is likely a probing attempt to find things like radar installations, no doubt they'll bomb the crap out of them if it comes to it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,297 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    I think they could but Taiwan and its people would put up a hell of a fight and make China pay for every advance they make that by the time China had taken over it it would seem like a defeat. Chine is over 237 I think tomes bigger than Taiwan. All this could have been resolved easily years ago do if America and the West had acknowledged Taiwan as a state in its own right. Then China would not seek to take it back as they know it would mean war. As it is China says its a rogue province and wants it back.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    What happened with Crimea? I did not see any reaction from anyone outside Ukraine over the takeover. The Russians just walked in and that was it.

    Could the Chinese do something like that?

    Unfortunately the deal over Hong Kong (one state - two systems) appears to be going towards 'one state - one system'. If Taiwan had such a deal that Taiwan would become a province of China but be left alone, I doubt they would trust China to not interfere to the extent of taking over - either gradually or quickly.

    For the USA, such a state of affairs would mean the end of USA global military reach - at least in the Far East. Would Japan or Australia consider themselves safe?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    The people of Taiwan are Chinese, which might be a problem for the West in getting a war going. Better stick to the sheikdoms and Central America to keep the arms industry going.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I am reading the speeches of Xi Jianping right now. He is basically a Chinese nationalist, with no real Marxism. His main speeches on the economy praise the private sector and the public sector equally.

    There is very little belligerence. Except to Taiwan. He clearly wants to unite. However I get the impression the Chinese are happy to wait, they have a civilisation of 2000 years anyway ( they say 5000). And in two decades they will be unbeatable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    My wife’s Taiwanese friend would tell you otherwise. To her, that’s like calling an Irish person British.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The last time they fought a shooting war with the Chinese was over Korea from 1950 to 1953 (and it is still going on only there is an armistice but no formal peace agreement). At the beginning, the USA and allies fought all the way to the Chinese border, then China entered the war and fought all the way back to the start, and now there is a DMZ keeping the sides apart.

    There are a lot of Chinese soldiers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Difference with Crimea is it was filled with a lot of ethnic Russians who welcomed the takeover. To my knowledge Taiwan does not have a lot of PRC-separatists in their midst. Russia got sanctioned for Crimea (are they still in place?), but nothing happened beyond that really. The Ukrainians kick up a fuss but they wouldnt dare try take it back.

    Russia officially recognises Taiwan as Chinese clay too, so it's clear who is backing who in this - the usual Russia-Iran-China axis vs US-Japan-Aus-UK. Most likely outcome is China takes it with little fuss - they want a fully unified China by 2049 (100 year anniversary of People's Republic of China), but expect the takeover to come much sooner than that. By 2049 all Taiwanese will be good chinese citizens pledging allegiance to the party.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭SortingYouOut


    Taiwan's geography make's a land invasion for China very very difficult. It would not be an easy take over for China, there would be very heavy losses on all sides and then a stalemate, I reckon.

    Beverly Hills, California



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,477 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    In two decades they will be on the decline already due to their artificially stunted demographics. They know it too. If they want to grab Taiwan it's going to happen in the next decade.



  • Registered Users Posts: 729 ✭✭✭SupplyandDemandZone


    Not going to happen for a few years yet imo although with a pretty weak president sitting in the oval office who knows China might seize the moment.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That’s cope. China’s demographics are less worrying than the west and they haven’t even used up all of their rural workers yet, which means they don’t really need immigration.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    Taiwan, producer of 80% of world's semiconductors.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Scuid Mhór


    I would hope not but I do believe that in a few years it is probably inevitable that China will make a move. I hope Taiwan strikes back with force when the time comes.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    It's not that they make lots of chips. It's that they make the cutting edge chips in volume. Intel is getting them to make their 3nm chips. China needs chips but plays the long game.

    The USA's "Star Wars" program cost billions but it bankrupted the Russians when they tried to keep up. If China keeps up the pressure then Taiwan will have to spend more than they'd like on defence.


    The Chinese know that Taiwan will destroy the TSMC factories rather than let them be captured. So baring some major upset they will do like they did for Hong Kong and Macau and wait.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,545 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Taiwan is one of the lynch pins in the US strategy for countering China's belligerence in South China Sea. They will absolutely defend them. This is a totally different situation to the Ukraine. There are decades long guarantees of US support, that underpin the relationship. A failure to defend them would be catastrophic strategically for the US, and destroy and credibility they have in other alliances.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,009 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    The TSMC factories give the Western countries a huge opportunity to support Taiwan. If Taiwan had nothing going for it, China would roll in and no one would even pretend to help. The chip manufacturing and the strategic advantage of having an ally so close to China's border are why US and NATO will likely help Taiwan.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,827 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    It's getting scarier now with Xinnie the Poo in danger of looking very weak with incoming fuel shortages that could devastate the Chinese economy. He is really looking to have the reunification of China as his legacy and I would not be surprised if things start to go pear shaped that he pulls and Falklands War Thatcher job to get a popularity boost.

    It won't be easy for China, the last time they tried something their airforce got a hammering from sidewinder missiles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The PRC dont need TSMC or any of the Taiwanese semiconductor installations - they have their own, and are rapidly playing catch-up (mostly with stolen Taiwanese trade secrets)

    I'd say they'd be more than happy to have Taiwanese govt destroy all these assets in an invasion, as the West needs it more than PRC



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,477 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Not sure what "cope" means in this context but the idea that China "don't really need migration" is just wrong. Their current fertility rate is well below the reproduction rate of 2.1. Currently both the USA and China have a fertility rate of 1.70 (and practically the same media age). The difference between them is that USA tops up its population shortfall where China actually exports people. The Net Migration rate for USA is 2.82 per 1000 whereas for China it's -0.25 per 1000. An untapped rural workforce may get them over any short-term humps but in the long run they're either going to have to change their stance on migration or face the consequences (not enough young people to bear the burden of the growing population of retirees).



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    You need to take account of life expectancy.

    Do Americans live to a greater age, particularly post retirement? Are Americans healthier than Chinese people, particularly elderly age groups?



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The untapped rural workforce is about 300M which gives them decades. China is not fully urban yet. Also the rural workers need passports to work in cities so they can be seen as immigrants.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,477 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    There is currently a 2 year difference in life expectancy and it's closing rapidly. Chinese retirement age (60M/55F) is currently far lower than that of the USA which places even more of a burden on the working population



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,477 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    No they can't "be seen as immigrants" if the entire country has a net negative migration rate. The migration rate looks at the country as a whole - internal migration is irrelevant in its calculation.


    Also your 300m "untapped rural workers" figure is not a credible number. The entire rural workforce numbered 332m in 2019. Did you just assume that they can all move to the cities in their entirety? That's not how it works. Those people are doing jobs that need doing in the countryside from farming to teaching children to looking after the elderly. If you moved them to the city then you just create a shortfall in rural areas that needs to be plugged.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well, yeh If you technically use immigrants as only coming in from abroad. I was talking economically and with regards to the economic affects of an ageing population. The dependency ratio is the ratio of workers to retired.

    In the West to keep that number up immigrants are needed. However it’s not that simple. The more educated a worker is the more GDP he produces, the more tax he pays. An industrial worker is also more productive than a peasant.

    In fact a worker who leaves a rural area to work in a factory goes from contributing nothing much in taxes to paying taxes. In the next generation his offspring will go to college and move up the value chain again.

    very little of that is available to the west, where most immigrants are low skilled with the exception of the hiB workers in the US Europe doesn’t seem to have a points system.

    In those terms then we need to look at the rural workers moving into urban areas as economically increasing the tax pool in a way that’s the same or better than immigration to the west, albeit without the social problems. In that time the Chinese need to push the tfr to 2 or more. That means 100 couples having 200 children rather than 170. Achievable for a dictatorship.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    You cant just move rural workers to cities like that - rural workers are farmers and all the support industries for them, among other things.

    It is delusional to think you can do that - sure next why dont we fill any job vacancies in Irish cities by evacuating all the farmers too? What could possibly go wrong?

    You cant measure a persons contributions in taxes alone - people involved in food production tend to be paid worse but are infinitely more important than an office worker on 60k as the deputy head of HR



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,477 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    The benefit of workers to an economy does not start and end with their tax contributions. A more basic function is that without them things don't work. Like it or not every economy needs ditch diggers. Yes. many migrants to the EU and USA are doing low wage, manual jobs but guess what - someone has to do those jobs to prop up the economy and China is no exception. You only have to look at what's happened in the UK transportation and agricultural sectors in the past year when they chose to limit their own supply of foreign workers in those sectors to see what happens without them.

    Also immigration in the EU is dictated on a country by country basis. Ireland for one is full of highly educated non-EU workers (take a walk around any Irish hospital or the IFSC in Dublin to see examples of this)

    I'm not really sure where you're going with the whole "the next generation of Chinese migrant workers will move up the value chain" as an argument as if the second-generation immigrants in Europe and the USA won't be doing exactly the same thing. The most successful ethnic groups in the British education system are now all the children of migrants (Bangladeshi & Nigerian children in particular are excelling).

    China, by not contemplating this (for now) have a big problem that they cannot resolve by shuffling people around internally. I wouldn't be so confident either that they can get that fertility rate anywhere near 2. Right now in China the conditions for rearing children are dreadful. The average property in most cities is 30+ times the average salary while working hours are extreme by western standards. Many other autocratic countries, such as Russia and Belarus have been actively trying to promote larger families without much success.

    Now, don't get me wrong - what China has pulled off economically in the past 40 years has been nothing short of miraculous. However I think there is a narrative out there that they can now do anything that they put their minds to through sheer will. In reality the problems that they are facing are getting more thorny. They will certainly become the world's largest economy but I am not convinced that we are entering a new age of Chinese hegemony.



  • Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Taiwan is only 32% self sufficient in food. www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2011/03/04/2003497297

    A land invasion is not required. China just needs to close the shipping and air lanes to Taiwan, and would effectively be fighting a defensive war(tactically not morally) if America or other countries got involved



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,545 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    And in turn the US would enact a naval blockade of China, which they could fairly easily accomplish, to far more devastating effect.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Which makes the Chinese "belt & road" initiative all the more attractive - the trade route from NW China through Afghanistan, Iran and on to the middle east and Europe. Which they are pursuing quite aggressively lately.

    And maybe in absolute terms it would be more devastating to China (by nature of a larger population), in relative terms Taiwan would be infinitely worse off. I think Chinese self-sufficiency for food is around 70-80% compared to Taiwanese 32% according to @ChocolateIce . Taiwan being an island means it can be fully blocked off too, whereas China still has links to Russia and air routes to the Middle East and Europe



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan



    Think of the German takeover of Norway. Germany had no land access to Norway only sea and air. The place capitulated in a matter of weeks.



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  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Sofia Dirty Popgun


    But they are overwhelmingly ethnically Han Chinese and see themselves as the real China...



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    China is the largest food importer currently and this is only going to get worse -

    Moreover, misguided policies are leading to severe water shortages. The Yangtze River, cradling 460 million people, is drying up, and more than 1,000 lakes along its 3,900 miles have disappeared. Its water level, according to a recent study, has fallen 0.8 inches every five years since the 1980s, but that sounds like an underestimation. Chinese officials siphon off the Yangtze's water with their massive South-to-North Water Diversion project. More than half of Beijing's water comes from that river. To protect the waterway, fishing has been banned for a decade.

    Scarcity is not the only water problem. Up to 80 percent of China's water is polluted. "What lands are suitable to grow foods are producing far too little of it, and much of the food is produced from a polluted soil and water base," Gregory Copley, the president of the International Strategic Studies Association, told Newsweek.

    It also has very bad energy security

    China had become the largest importer in the world by 2019, importing more than 10 million barrels of oil per day, and relying on imports to meet almost 75% of its consumption.

    For similar reasons, China has also become one of the world’s largest natural gas importers, relying on imports to meet more than 40% of its domestic needs.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,545 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I read a piece analysing a possible US course of action in the event of conflict. Mass aerial mining of Chinese ports and waterways was one idea. Chinese are far more vulnerable to disruption to imports and trade than the US.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    That is mad.

    Iraq did not wok out to well, nor did Afghanistan. Vietnam started as a limited action. And Korea - well that is still a problem.

    Of course China will not react to such a turn of events in any way or perhaps they will. What do you think?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,545 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I think if it's at the point of conflict, we'll all be living in dark after the cyberweapons are unleashed and the satellites come crashing down.


    On a longer scale, if a conflict didn't go nuclear, the US would have a number of advantages that weigh in it's favor. Secured supply routes, unrestricted access to sea travel and generally being liked better than China. They also have the benefit of experience fighting wars, on a military level. That's something that China, for all its posturing simply doesn't have.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    As I said in my earlier post, the USA have more experience of fighting wars - Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. With experiences like that, I would be suing for peace before it starts.

    The USA have generally kept out of Africa (thank goodness) apart from a few forays like Libya and Somalia. They have close links with Egypt (another despot), but generally have left the rest alone. Their involvement in South America has been nothing short of shameful - bringing down the democratically elected Allende and replacing him with brutal dictator Pinochet was a low point. The treatment of Cuba is another boil that needs lancing.

    Why do they see their role in the world to interfere in the politics of other countries? They could start with their own.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,644 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    the USA have more experience of losing wars - Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. With experiences like that, I would be suing for peace before it starts


    I know it's a frowned up practice but I felt that really needed fixing, America only goes to war because the war machine is huge in that country and vested interests always push for war. A war with China would be a whole different beast.



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    If the shooting started, they would not need to do this. Most of China's imported energy comes from the Middle East. Have a look at the geography of the area that ships need to take between the China and Middle East. There are 3 main routes for this - Singapore straight, Jakarta straight and the Timor sea between Australia & Indonesia. You could relatively easily put a fuel blockade in place west of these routes and challenge the Chinese Navy to do something about it. The Chinese Navy would be operating far from home, off the coasts of hostile states



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,477 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I cannot countenance direct fighting breaking out between the USA and China because of the threat of escalation up until the point of nuclear weapons being used. Like do people really believe that they're going to fire rockets and drop bombs on each other and trust each other not to go any further than that? The Americans and the Soviets never engaged in direct conflict with each other for this exact reason. I can't see why the Americans and Chinese will be any different. Instead it'll be all indirect warfare: funding disinformation, cyber attacks, propaganda, proxy wars in third countries - that kind of thing. I still believe the Chinese will attack Taiwan - but only after they are sure that it won't lead to all out war with the Americans.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, the closest the USA - Soviets got to all out war was over the Cuba missile crisis (Oct 1962 - 59 years ago). The USA spotted activity on Cuba that looked like the building of missile bases. A Soviet ship was spotted travelling to Cuba carrying cargo that looked like missiles. The Soviets were told that if the ship carrying the missiles crossed a line, then the USA would treat that as an act of war. The world was aghast.

    Apparently, Robert Kennedy, brother of the President and AG, caught the Soviet Ambassador to the USA by the tie, and thrusting his face up to his said 'If you think we do not mean this, be warned - WE DO!' The ship did not cross the line but stopped on the line. It then returned from whence it came. The missile silos were deconstructed. War averted. Cuba is still subject to severe sanctions from the USA.

    I hope there is no repeat of that kind of stand off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,113 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    On the Chinese navy, one of the interesting thing China has been doing over the last few decades is building infrastructure in other countries - namely ports.

    China owns and operates all these ports on behalf of the host country, but the port is theirs. Something like 90+ ports worldwide are owned by China, so no doubt they would provide some use to the Chinese navy if push came to shove.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,545 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The Chinese navy would have to each those ports. With possibly 2 arcraft carriers vs 9/ 10 US nuclear carriers and ~8 smaller America class ones. Along with all the other ships.



  • Registered Users Posts: 729 ✭✭✭SupplyandDemandZone


    The US is at war right now with the Chinese, okay its only a cyber war but the effects of it are going to be profound on us all as the years pass. A massive cyber attack on the US knocking out vital systems will be a line crossed long before China invades Taiwan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    I think a much closer analogy would be the economic sanctions and embargo the US waged on Japan in 1939-41 to counter Japanese aggression in SE Asia.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    You mean up until Pearl Harbour?

    Well, you might be right. Japan attacking the USA at Pearl Harbour was recognised by some of the Japanese high command as a reckless and fruitless enterprise that could only end in failure and defeat.

    However, it did take them a while and a few nukes. And even then, if the Emperor realised that was all they had, he would not have capitulated but fought on.



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