The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Wibbs · 11-10-2021 12:25AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118002023#Comment_118002023

Oh I read the book alright and my personal opinion on it stands, and I would not be alone in that. As I noted Peig was one of the inspirations for an an beal bocht that parodied its insular gloominess. Never mind several generations of students, rural and urban that viewed it with a singular dread. They weren't imagining things.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118002373#Comment_118002373

English changed and continued to change and changes today and so rapidly because of its advantages in many areas and widespread use across different cultures who added to it because of empire(not so good) and trade which brought many influences to bear(not least the Irish). This is a fair sign of its utility. Why you include it as some sort of pidgen or creole language is beyond me. And an educated English speaker could understand most of Chaucer just as fairly easily too. What's your point? My point still remains; Irish is not close to the most ancient spoken language in Europe as was claimed/believed earlier. As I said Greek both in the written and spoken form nukes it from orbit as far as antiquity goes. Never mind the legacy of art, law, engineering, science and philosophy contained within that history.

CGI_Livia_Soprano · 11-10-2021 08:43AM

Wibbs why do you keep bringing "Peig" up? It hasn't been on the curriculum for almost 30 years.

11-10-2021 09:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118002264#Comment_118002264

….

11-10-2021 09:08AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118002517#Comment_118002517

No. The natural word to use is Irish. It’s even in the thread title.

Wibbs · 11-10-2021 09:11AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003151#Comment_118003151

Because it was one of those nails in the coffin of the language for a few generations. I only brought it up the once, then others defended it. I'd be glad if it never came up.

CGI_Livia_Soprano · 11-10-2021 09:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003220#Comment_118003220

But you brought it up, and keep referring to it. It hasn't been on the curriculum since 1995, people born in 1995 would have done the Leaving Cert many years ago. I think your references are more than a little out of date.

Wibbs · 11-10-2021 10:07AM

I brought it up once, others referred to it. I defended my position. You're the one that seems more obsessed with my reference to it in lieu of argument. Never mind that the demographics of this site mean that a fair percentage of those reading did the leaving cert before 95 and have little love for it and it certainly was one of those things that negatively impacted the learning of the language. In any event if it makes you feel any better I'll happlily refrain from mentioning that dour oul crone's witterings in the future.

Wibbs · 11-10-2021 10:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003320#Comment_118003320

By the by, here's my post where I brought it up:

To be fair a goodly number of my peers at school baulked at having to learn Shakespeare's stuff too. And even a few lines of Liam's ouevre makes Peig look like the dour stone soaked misery peddler she was. In any language. "I lost 18 childer to the great bog fart of 88 and that was the year my hair burnt down and a halibut ate my toe". Whoever thought that guff was of any relevance or would strike any sympathetic chord in kids must have been smoking peat moss of the funny sort. Then again we were in the grip of "Catholic Ireland" and our Catholicism was very much of the slow walking in purgatory through the vale of misty tears sort compared to the Latin versions. so there's that. Misery porn was in, as Flann O'Brien noted and extracted the urine from to great effect. I gather those that came after me have not had to suffer the witterings of that oul crone. This is a good thing.

NB; the last sentence.

Rechuchote · 11-10-2021 10:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003212#Comment_118003212

Even Elizabeth I's textbook with a few phrases in the language refers to it as Irish.

CGI_Livia_Soprano · 11-10-2021 11:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003406#Comment_118003406

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask why someone keeps referring to an Irish language book that isn’t even on the secondary school curriculum when this thread is about road signage and group emails in Irish. It brings me back to a point I made earlier that all of the people who have a chip on their shoulder regarding Irish use extremely dated references such as Peig or your uncle who worked in the civil service in the 1950s. Honestly it doesn’t really add anything, even in a historical context.

Wibbs · 11-10-2021 12:38PM

I know you're clumsily going for the old out of touch angle, a common enough angle when people have difficulty with a decent argument, but while the thread started off about signage and emails in Irish(which I have zero issue with by the by), it has moved on from that. it's a little something called a conversation, it ebbs and flows around the subject. And again, as you seem to have difficulty understanding; I mentioned it once, others defended it. Take it up with them. Never mind that you've now mentioned the damned thing more times than I have. You think you've made some point and like a dog with a bone you're not letting go of it. So no change then.

Jump_In_Jack · 11-10-2021 02:42PM

Anyone noticed lately, how TG4 are covering the URC (Rugby) and they are now flashing up the penalties in English (as well as Irish) and doing a lot of talking and interviewing in English.

I love their coverage, just wish they'd explain to us who the commentators are, the Irish speaking ones, as it's not apparent what their background is, ex-players/coaches etc.

I really enjoy the fact that Irish has this space in the present day, to discuss and commentate in Irish predominantly, but not so fearful of including English in the broadcast, it's a healthy attitude to have.

EmmetSpiceland · 11-10-2021 02:49PM

One thing I like about TG4’s coverage of the rugby is that they always seem to have the ref‘s mic turned up so when a penalty is given you can hear the reason quite clearly.

jm08 · 11-10-2021 03:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004832#Comment_118004832

Not sure who is doing the Irish commentary now, but John Broderick and Eoghan O Neachtain used to do it anyway and were pretty good at it - at least they were not annoying like Ryle Nugent etc. John Broderick is/was an Irish teacher and rugby coach for Belvedere College. Since he is from Limerick, he grew up with the game. Not sure about Eoghan O Neachtain's credentials other than he is a former Government Press Secretary and is now a PR guru!

Fishdoodle · 11-10-2021 05:50PM

What I find tends to happen in these types of discussion is that we debate with rational minds - comments tend to be speed read/scanned, and often it is the mis-match in our registry that tends to ignite a response and another tangent of the discussion evolves. -Especially when in response to a long comment. Ex (Gormdubhgorm posted some interesting thoughts & links I didn't comment on, though what I disagreed with - i did!.) I found many contributers thoughts really eye-opening.

'My bad' for stating Irish was the oldest spoken language in Europe, and thanks Wibbs/Ulysses for the interesting info on Basque/Greek/Celtic Languages. :-)

The main thrust of the discussion is regarding peoples' attitudes to the language.

And with that in mind, I'm curious as to the areas of agreement with regard to the Irish language. Things such as ...

-Is usefulness (or lack of) -

-It it valuable?

-Is it worthwhile supporting the language - if so, what are the benefits and to whom?

Is there even a broad area where people agree???

While I take many of your points on board (Wibbs)

I'm genuinely interested to know the points you agree with - as you seem to be well studied in a lot of areas relating to language 🙂. The thread has meandered into an exploration of Manx, Scots Gaelic etc. And while this is really interesting, I find it detracts from the core issues regarding Gaeilge.

Also, I think progress is made on what people agree on. It's the things we disagree on that lead to polar division and adversarial thinking & sadly the inevitable insults (as we have seen) . which can entrench a me vs them kind of false reality.

As for the essence of our identity, that's an organic evolution too, a bastard child with many mothers, with a few errant fathers in the mix. (Wibbs) -

This was a response to the comment I made

'Irish people who don’t notice the background stuff are asleep - not only to their culture but to the very essence that has shaped their identity -the perceived and the hidden.'

We can look at identity historically as a result of- this-that and the other (not)happening. I believe that a deeper journey can be taken - how far back can we go, through history - a language such as Irish goes WAY back to encompass - emigration, famine, colonialism, Clans, Christianity, early Christianity, Pre-Christianity, Iron Age, Bronze Age, Moyturians, Tuaithe Dé Danann and everything in between. Having the language alive today can enable one not only to study our lineage but is a living key with which one can become immersed into states of consciousness and their changes over eons. It's good for the soul. This cannot be done so well from the outsider looking in through English alone- as you rely on the translation which is a poor second in capturing the va-va-voom. :-)

So the essence of our identity can be explored by many means but Irish is still a living language -it's quite a rich portal through which to journey -we'd be culturally worse off to dismiss it. Yet, I can see how gaining a decent fluency has become a problem which makes it all the more important to help and encourage people (who wish to do so) to appreciate, learn and speak it - and enrich themselves along the way.

As it stands, we are being saturated with commercial junk - bite-size media fixes in the form of tik-tok, instagram & whatever the next craze is. Enough to fire a quick dopamine fix before moving to the next, and so on… Real culture is an antidote to much of the mainstream junk we are exposed to :-)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-10-2021 06:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118005763#Comment_118005763

In answer to your questions re: usefulness and value - depends on the individual.

People learn languages for two reasons: communication and expression. Irish is simply not nessecary for communication, and its up to the individual whether they want to use it for expression. No matter how beautiful you find it and no matter how positive an impact it has on you, that's simply not the case for everyone.

EmmetSpiceland · 11-10-2021 06:29PM

What I find odd is the people who would do away with the national language tomorrow are, usually, the same “type” who would balk at the idea of Ireland tightening relations with the EU.

Our language is paramount to our national “identity”. Without it we may as sign back into the Union with the brits.

Evade · 11-10-2021 06:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118005923#Comment_118005923

Irish can't be paramount to our national Identity if only 40% of the population claim to speak it.

Fishdoodle · 11-10-2021 06:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006003#Comment_118006003

I wonder what area(s) of culture you’d consider higher up the rank that you’d consider of greater value?

gormdubhgorm · 11-10-2021 06:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118005923#Comment_118005923

You don't have to even be born in Ireland or even consider your to be Irish to speak the Irish language.

Linda Ervine -

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/people/linda-ervine-the-irish-language-is-an-important-part-of-protestant-heritage-3320839

I don't agree with creation of 'them' and 'us' in the Irish language. It should not be weaponised/politicised with Acts for symbolic purposes.

People just need encouragement/help to speak the flipping thing regularly, and in day to day life. So it becomes 'normalised' again outside of a classroom setting. To reverse a colonial mindset and not be ashamed or embarrassed to speak Irish outside of a classroom setting. Ok it unlikely that Gaeilge/Irish as a community language will return. But it would be in a much better state than it currently is. The problems in the past were an inferiority complex with Irish, and a poor system of teaching Irish. Which only geared towards exams and not spoken Irish. Then the students would go home and speak English.

If that cycle was broken (by whatever method works -education/incentive wise) then I think we would see that 'School Irish' v English as a community language cycle broken. The two could at least exist more in tandem, or even interchangeably.

I was also thinking that social media sites such as these plus twitter and facebook could have Gaeilge options for their sites - it would be helpful. I found when using my Onedrive with the Irish language options after a while navigating becomes second nature.

If a young child was educated in the Irish medium and used sites with Irish language options. Naturally they would grow up preferring the Irish language option instead of English - on twitter facebook etc

But the question is not how do you reach that point. But how do you speed up the process so a large number of the under 2m people with some Irish join the process?

1.7m people in the ROI have some Irish. Thankfully the reality is that people like the OP are on the fringes - outliers in an Irish language debate. You cannot change an individual who is irrational on a subject. It is the untapped middle ground where results could be found with it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-10-2021 07:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006038#Comment_118006038

Sport and music.

gormdubhgorm · 11-10-2021 07:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006073#Comment_118006073

Both can be enjoyed through Irish, which is another way of learning/improving it outside an a classroom setting.

Evade · 11-10-2021 07:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006077#Comment_118006077

But you can enjoy them just as easily without speaking Irish so it's still not paramount to the culture.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-10-2021 07:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006077#Comment_118006077

Never said otherwise, was just answering the questions.

11-10-2021 08:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006051#Comment_118006051

Tá Linda go hiontach, so she is. She works so hard and is so confident and passionate about Irish, yet in person she's quite reserved and even shy. My favourite line of hers is that the Irish language can be used to say 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' (our day will come), but it can also be used to say 'Ní ghéillfimid' (no surrender).

Fishdoodle · 11-10-2021 08:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006051#Comment_118006051

Gorm, I think you’re spot on re; “inferiority complex with Irish, and a poor system of teaching”. A change of perspective doesn’t come easily. I remember when people would say things like ‘young people don’t speak Irish / it’s dying away with the old generation’ TG4, helped change that perspective. Perspectives change.

The link featuring Linda Ervine was worth a read - her quote:

“As a people we are culturally rich yet instead of embracing that wonderful cultural mix, we separate it into narrow divisive boxes and deny ourselves access to the very things that make us who we are.”

I think there’s value in embracing the mix 🙂

PcBanana / Evade : Sport & Music play a huge part in our culture. But imagine if … only 15 % of the population play a traditional instrument, should we do away with supporting traditional music? I don’t think it adds up. A much greater number can appreciate its value and would be willing to support it. It’s an easy thing to separate things ‘into the narrow divisive boxes’.

Sport, Music, Language, Art - they serve their greatest purpose in bringing people together -imagination, ideas & creativity arise -wake up our passion and stirs the soul. Creating the space to enable for that to happen is a really good thing.

Thankfully we’re not in some Armageddon situation where we’re forced to cull off some culture due to 21st Century 🙂

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006305#Comment_118006305

I didn’t know much about her, just heard her name, but wow she brings a colourful and valuable perspective to things! Thanks Uly/Gorm for the links 👍

Evade · 11-10-2021 08:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006327#Comment_118006327

PcBanana / Evade : Sport & Music play a huge part in our culture. But imagine if … only 15 % of the population play a traditional instrument, should we do away with supporting traditional music? I don’t think it adds up. A much greater number can appreciate its value and would be willing to support it. It’s an easy thing to separate things ‘into the narrow divisive boxes’.

No, give support those that want it but stop sending flyers about tin whistles and céilí to people that haver no interest in them. Like I wrote in my first post in this thread I've been through the whole Irish thing, I used to speak it better than some of my teachers, but I had no reason to keep it up because there's nothing of interest to me that requires it.

Upforthematch · 11-10-2021 09:06PM

-Is it worthwhile supporting the language - if so, what are the benefits and to whom? (Fishdoodle)

This is where it gets interesting. Most people on both sides of the argument agree that the language should be "supported" but some people's idea of support is very limited.

There is a website called PEIG.IE ;) that shows current vacancies for roles with Irish (excluding teaching)

https://peig.ie/foluntais/

On this link there are about 40 vacancies, even though most are in the state or voluntary sector what surprises me is the variety of posts on offer. Certainly you have the usuals, translators, etc... but there are jobs for receptionist, communications officer, broadcasting technician and admin manager as well. Not jobs that you would instantly associate with Irish.

What is 100% certain is that if the rug were pulled from the current levels of support and funding, these jobs would disappear.

No Acht na Gaeilge, no translators required.

No Gaeltacht community grants, no local development companies.

No funding for Tg4, no broadcasting commissions for Irish production companies.

It's up to ourselves as a nation to figure it out the future status of the language, but I think even a person who is cynical or personally disinterested in the language should recognise that people are communicating and expressing themselves in the language on a daily basis in many areas, it isn't just the classroom, the civil service and Clannad recordings.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-10-2021 09:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006377#Comment_118006377

The fact is, a lot more than 15% partake and so it's a better connection to any cultural identity the participants may have than language and for one reason: they are introduced as fun activities.

And even if it was only 15% I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have people stepping and demanding that every child in the country be forced to spend several hours a week doing it.

Wibbs · 11-10-2021 09:27PM

The main thrust of the discussion is regarding peoples' attitudes to the language.

And with that in mind, I'm curious as to the areas of agreement with regard to the Irish language. Things such as ...

-Is usefulness (or lack of) -

-It it valuable?

-Is it worthwhile supporting the language - if so, what are the benefits and to whom?

I would say it's useful for those who speak it on the regular among others, beyond that its pure utility is narrow.

It's valuable for Irish speakers and as a cultural remnant of our past and should be preserved among those who want to preserve it.

I support it for the above, but wider support that does little to actually change much I don't. I've no issue with bilingual signage and the like. At worst it's cultural window dressing, but all cultures have that to some degree, at best it's there for those who want to speak and read it. I would make it voluntary in education. Let those and their parents who want to preserve it choose to do so. I'd prefer the funding and effort to go there rather than the scattergun approach and go towards other second languages in primary education. Going full on primary education in the language I don't support. That time has come and gone IMHO. Plus it smacks far too much of a cultural year zero driven by cultural gatekeepers for me.

We can look at identity historically as a result of- this-that and the other (not)happening. I believe that a deeper journey can be taken - how far back can we go, through history - a language such as Irish goes WAY back to encompass - emigration, famine, colonialism, Clans, Christianity, early Christianity, Pre-Christianity, Iron Age, Bronze Age, Moyturians, Tuaithe Dé Danann and everything in between.

Well.... not really. We can get to a little before Christianity and the coming of the written word with primitive Irish, but beyond that we've no real clue. It's possible it came with the migration of farmers that replaced the neolithic peoples here, but again we've no clue and what "Irish" existed then would be pretty much unintelligible to any speakers today. An Irish speaker will have a bit of hardship understanding Welsh and the distance between them is a lot smaller than between us and the bronze age. Written languages tend to be more stable over time, though even here they drift. Printing standardised language, but again even here French, English, Spanish and so forth have evolved since then, with local dialects mostly dying out and lots of loan words creeping in. Though that can go a bit odd sometimes too. So gluaistean can be used in Irish for a car(moviing/fast thing?), but car itself is a Celtic word loaned to Latin and made its way through loads of languages before it ended up in english. Even Latin which has a deep written history and a msassive spread as a lingua franca of culture, trade, art and the sciences evolved into, well the Romance languages for a start and even within itself gave us the classical, vulgate, late, ecclesiastical, medieval. And then it died out, but the cultural stuff didn't. It survived that demise.

Having the language alive today can enable one not only to study our lineage but is a living key with which one can become immersed into states of consciousness and their changes over eons. It's good for the soul. This cannot be done so well from the outsider looking in through English alone- as you rely on the translation which is a poor second in capturing the va-va-voom. :-)

There's something to that, but personally I think it's somewhat overblown. Halfway decent cultural stuff can survive translation, may even be enriched by it. It certainly survives changes within languages themselves. Shakespeare has been translated into most languages out there and it still works and even the English speakers who hear it don't hear it in its original form, but the rose is still a rose by any other name. Hell, one enterprising Chinese lad translated James Joyce's Ulysses into Chinese. That's a hard enough slog for native speakers.

As it stands, we are being saturated with commercial junk - bite-size culture in the form of tik-tok, instagram & whatever the next craze is. Culture is an antidote to much of the mainstream junk we are exposed to :-)

Until mainstream junk becomes the culture. A lot of what we see as high brow culture today wasn't in the past. The aforementioned Shakespeare an obvious one. That was aimed at those in the cheap seats. Or what we see as good art was once seen as horrific, modernism of the 20th century for a start. Even impressionism which has become background noise and high art today was once seen as bloody awful daubings.

The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Comments