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The creeping prominence of the Irish language

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,371 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Not true again, That is just your bias. I do give a sh!te about the kids AND the language. It has a dual benefit.

    There have been various studies showing the benefits of having multilingual children.



    You have a leaning against the Irish language in general which is fair enough. Ok, you may view my idea as radical. Because it is a 'foreign' mindset to you. If anything I would counter argue that the OP's mindset is 'radical'. If you look at the OP's comments regarding Irish language warnings on cigarettes packets 'causing deaths'. You can really see an irrational 'radical' mindset. Unless someone can correct me if I took up the OP incorrectly. It certainly seems odd and the mindset seemed odd - to me anyway.

    I would argue using Irish as the medium of education in primary and preschool would be easy. As there is an overabundance of primary school teachers - scratching a living and subbing here and there. Secondary level it would be more difficult.

    But it is NOT the complete changing of the syllabus in Irish education it is merely using the Irish language as a medium to teach the very same general syllabus that is already there. It is only a question of translating English into Irish.

    Or using simply Irish books, how do you think Gaelscoil's manage currently do you think they have their own completely different syllabus??? They would be taught the same subjects as their English medium counterparts

    They have the very same general direction of syllabus as laid down by the department of education. They have to sit the same state structured exams at the end of the day. The issue you have about the syllabus is mostly a bit of a misnomer IMO.

    I don't understand your point about causing 'unnecessary stress' and 4/5 year olds with colonial bias?? That point is a bit baffling.

    Toddlers and kids of that age quite happily absorb a new language, if immersed in it. I have heard of toddlers at naíonradescribing Irish as 'new English'. And others who just naturally know there are two words for everything Irish/English.

    I did see a discussion online yesterday with Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh and B'OC.

    It was like a concentrated discussion of this thread.

    O'Connor brought up the point about the perception of exclusivity in Gaelscoileanna, TG4, translations and so on. B Ni C corrected him on those points. Ultimately said The Irish language is for everyone etc it is just the fluency that differs.

    And again she pointed out the practical difficulties she has to suffer, when she tries to use the Irish language in day to day life etc.There was tension as well as a member of the audience, seemed disgruntled with BO'C. I got the impression it was a bubbling frustration.

    The bit that really made me laugh was when Blaithnaid said if she was Minister for Education she would make all Primary Schools Gaelscoils @11:00. And Blaithnaid said to Brendan 'oh your eyes'.

    --

    On Gaelscoils

    There seems to be a demand for the supply for more Gaelscoil's not less

    Also outside fee paying schools Gaelscoil's are said to be the top performers getting academic results.

    In 2016 - 'Of the top 10 non fee-paying schools whose students progress to third-level education, four are Gaelcholáistí or Irish language schools'

    Yet in 2016 - 'Of the 735 secondary schools registered with the Department of Education in 2016, just 48 are fully Irish-medium.'


    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Why do you keep saying you think it would be easy but repeatedly refuse to deal with the reasons as to why it world be anything but easy?

    Why - when the teaching of Irish in Irish is bad enough (and it is) - do you think other subjects should follow?

    Why do you list the benefits of multilingualism (which only works with good teaching both inside and outside the classroom by the way) while advocating a monolingual education system?

    Why, if you care about kids are you denying them an education in their most comfortable language?

    And how are you going to help kids who don't take to languages very well, as a lot won't?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,371 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    This sounds very pejorative one you say 'someone off a farm in Kerry'. A tongue in cheek comment, I understand. But an untrue generalisation. As far as I am aware the likes of Conor McGregor and Ola Majekodunmi. Are neither experts in the agricultural matters or from Kerry. Or even from rural Ireland

    Secondly you pretend that the Irish language is dead. It is the usual throwaway comment that is used by some in these type of debates.

    It clearly is not considering that 1.7m people in Ireland have some form of Irish.There wide diveranges of level of fluency in between, obviously. The Irish language is not dead but seriously in trouble in the next 20/30 years. It could be on life support by then.

    If the majority of the Irish people care about the Irish Language and do not want it lost. As many seem to agree on. Irish medium based education is the way forwards IMO.

    PS - Gaelic v Gaeilge/Irish


    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,371 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Your'e gas you don't seem to understand how easily kids pick up a language when they are very young it is second nature. They do not face the same difficulties an adult faces when learning a second language. You don't have to be a linguistic to realise that. Surely?

    My little nephew (aged five) picked up all the words of 'Deutschland' by Rammstein after listening to it repeatedly in a very quick time, because he liked it. And the little fella does not even know what 'German' is!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4ZrzuZLuC4

    A different language is of no difficulty or stress to a young child. As it would be to you, as an adult

    Plus there was a study in 2011 which showed the benefits of learning Mathematics through the Irish medium.

    All this 'stress' seems to be your own viewpoint and not that of the child at all!

    You ask why education should be taught through the Irish medium. I have already said why increases the depth of Irish in speakers, encourages bilingualism, means the Irish language has more chance of surviving and growing.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I'm not arguing that kids won't pick up - I'm arguing that not all of them will. And that you're dismissing serious issues just to get what you want. Furthermore, those that do do so in specific environments you just assume will materialise out of thin air.

    Page 8 of the document YOU linked to - "however, learning issues may arise both for students and teachers at the transition from Gaeilge-medium education to English-medium education" - one can only imagine what it's like going in the opposite direction!

    Page 11 of it - "Gaeilgeoirí in the transition from Gaeilge-medium primary level education to English-medium second level mathematics education experience a disadvantage of 8.7 percent in performance when assessed through English." - 8.7% drop when they swtiched language??!

    If kids naturally picked up second languages easily at the rate you assume we'd have a bilingual society already!

    And finally - you ignroed four of the five questions I put to you in the post you replied to. Please address these or concede the points.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,292 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    For me it's more about the assumption as a given that the majority of the Irish people want the language brought back as some sort of a "cultural rebirth". Even if that 40% that tick the boxes in the census were all fluent Irish speakers for The Cause, and they aren't, that would still give a majority who don't and aren't. That's about the same majority that passed SSM and Repeal the 8th.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Posts: 19,178 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I was thinking of some posters on here last night, as I waited for a bus out of town. The live signs were in irish.

    Didn't seem to be an issue for any of the different nationalities waiting for the bus. It's amazing to think that it's an issue for Irish people🙄



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,292 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    For the vast majority of Irish people, it isn't. They don't notice it. It's just background stuff.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Aren't those live information signs in both English and Irish?



  • Posts: 19,178 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Fishdoodle



    I like Irish as - It has quite a broad spectrum through which one can interpret life. I like the sounds and how they relate to the natural world.

    I also appreciate Irish in a living context that echos back well over a 1000 years. I find it fascinating that mythological knowledge relating to our ancestry was passed unaltered through generations through a sophisticated spoken tradition.

    The viewpoint of Irish as useless is limiting. It has vast potential. The historical notion as language of the poor relates to the worst eras of our history -of emigration, occupation and the famine. It was thriving and spoken by Gaelic Kings and Queens.

    Ireland was a cultural mecca of music, poetry, song, story and spirituality.

    The culture was highly sophisticated. Our Celtic ancestors were certainly more attuned to their etheric nature and the world behind the veil which no doubt could be more tangibly felt back then. A magical land & a magical people. But the cycles of time change our consciousness-and here we are (in an iron age of consciousness) - a rational world arguing in a rational way ...but that will change again as we are enter into the Aquarian age.

    Irish Language and landscape blend so very well together. It mirrors the natural world better than English - in an untranslatable way.  Irish is a means through which reality can be sensed with a deeper sense of meaning.  

    When Irish is judged- solely on its economic/utilitarian benefit - one misses out on the bigger picture.

    Irish is a uniquely brilliant lens through which to view the world. The sounds are rich and when sung well can stir the soul.

    It is the oldest spoken language in Europe - that's pretty amazing -if we only realised we are so so lucky! Especially when you consider how our culture was almost wiped out. What remains of our culture is but a fragment of a greater time – yet it is still impressive. There is currently more life in the language than you'll find in the impressive artifacts of ancient Egypt.

    I find it sad at the beating it has taken -even in this forum! It is sad that Anglisised Surnames were imposed in the past, that Irish was pushed as a backward savage tongue by an external force -and that notion is still believed. It is sad that our sense of place (with deep roots in lore) was altered by the anglicising of names which related to the land.

    -Vinegar Hill -bears no resemblance to Cnoc Fiodh na gCaor Hill of the wood of the berries (other than phoneme). That someone would find offense to Irish place-names on signs says much about their mindset … and yet,were a 180 degree change of mindset to happen then that same person would be far the richer in wisdom and self.

    Some posters have pointed the finger at Irish speakers for leading to the demise of the language for example -an unwillingness to speak it following Emigration or even here at home. This is only partially true and many have played their part in keeping the language alive - it is thanks to those we still have Irish. Same goes for musicians! Good bad or indifferent we all carry some responsibility.

    I spent much time far away from anglo culture– enough time to feel infused into different cultures (I find it it takes at least three weeks to months) – a Brazilian Amazonian tribe, Buddhist monks in the high Himalayas, Small islands off the coast of India, I threw myself into a Spanish speaking culture without having a word of it and picked it up. I found there was a common thread amongst old cultures (myth, spirituality, story)- and began to gain a deep appreciation of our own which had lain dormant within me – I was blind to it. Irish language, I realised was a gateway to deeper insight.

    If culture is not important to people – if it is seen as a waste of money then … it is easier to remain immersed in the slow current of a creeping homogenized world of a perceived majority – cultural decay can set in like an untended garden.

    We can imagine where that leads to!

    Signage, announcements – giving recognition to Irish -this is important – the stage is set – and up to the people grassroots up to act also.

    It is the small increments that lead to great advances. Change can come slowly. Little things make a big differences. Playing Irish music in a shop. Just saying slán -that’s easy, it’s the embarrassment that’s not -but why be embarassed -that's a meditation in itself! Read a myth, a saga, a poem but speaking as you read (even in English). Sending a child to the Gaeltacht – it may be years down the line that the impact of the seed being sown makes a difference. As the saying goes “Ní neart go cur le chéile’ Little strength without unity. Waking up the sense of culture.

    We can choose to bring a little culture into our day and not place reliance solely on political power or whats streamed on tv/radio.

    It is heartening that there are spaces of cultural unity in society – all Irish preschools, secondary students singing together in a school assembly, trad sessions, ciorcail comhrá -small examples of Irish being spoken in a community. More can be done to revive Irish in the wider community, like cities - the only barrier being -perception, imagination, collective effort and will.

    I'm not an enthusiast nor a zealot. I'm a glass half-full kind of person. I can get by in English, Irish, French, German, Spanish.

    As Wibbs so well puts it  “For the vast majority of Irish people… They don't notice it. It's just background stuff.”

    Irish people who don’t notice the background stuff are asleep - not only to their culture but to the very essence that has shaped their identity -the perceived and the hidden.

    Yet for those, there remains the potential delight of waking up.

    Post edited by Fishdoodle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,989 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Presumably I was the 'some posters' having trouble with the buses. Most of 'the various nationalities' actually standing at a bus stop waiting already knew what number they wanted and knew the area well enough to know which number went where. If they didn't they could ask one of the other people standing at the stop. In my case there were no people at any of the stops and I didn't even know which side of the road I needed to be. When I did find a small queue of people most of them looked at me blankly or ignored me. The one that responded didn't know what number bus I needed to get into the centre but did know I needed to be on the other side of the road. I went across the road and just got on the first bus that came, and the nice Dublin bus driver rolled his eyes at me and was barely civil, but did say that this bus would take me to the centre.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,292 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    It is the oldest spoken language in Europe

    While I take many of your points on board FD, it's not. Maybe you're thinking of Old Irish being the oldest non Classical language that was written down? Basque is considerably older. It's not even in the indo European family of languages. A living fossil isolate(and well bloody weird to try and get a grasp on). Welsh would be of a similar vintage to Irish. As would Breton and Manx. Of the Classical languages modern Greek is in a direct line from Ancient Greek and that's been spoken and written down for way longer than Irish. Modern Spanish and Italian are also in a line from Latin and that's been around for a while too. If an Irish speaker from today went back in an atomic powered DeLorean to 2000 years ago they'd have a fair bit of difficulty understanding the Irish of the time, but would pick it up after a while because of the similarities, just as a Spaniard would get the gist of Latin if they went back to Rome back in the day(I remember reading somewhere that Spanish speakers would pick it up more easily than Italian speakers oddly enough). Continuity in language isn't so continuous, which is a very good thing, or it would be pickled and almost certainly die out. Basque/Euskara has itself changed over time. Even for us majority fluent English speakers here(and the Irish are extra fluent as Bearla in many ways 😜) try listening to Chaucer in Middle English. Without the subtitles.

    Close your eyes and think WTF? 😁 and that's "only" 800 years back. Original Saxon would be even more foreign. If you went back in time yourself and met someone like I dunno, Columbanus and with your ability to get by in the languages you have, you might actually stand a better chance of chatting with the lad in your Spanish, rather than your Irish, or a mixture of both, and a bit of Francais might not go amiss. Latinirish. Now that's a convo I'd love to be a part of. 🙂

    As for the essence of our identity, that's an organic evolution too, a bastard child with many mothers, with a few errant fathers in the mix. Including in our case the oft abusive English one. And like our parents we can't really pick and choose them after the fact.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Fishdoodle



    Maybe you're thinking of Old Irish being the oldest non Classical language that was written down?

    Actually, I was thinking -the oldest Western European language spoken, though happy to stand corrected there with the Basque! 🙂 Very little seems to be known of their Mythology -placenames play a small part in a pool of small puzzle pieces. Welsh & Irish seem quite close - some of the legends seem to be similar such as the Children of Lir. That said it’s extraordinary how far back a language can go - certainly our isolation as an island outpost helped. (Which makes it even more extraordinary that Basque survived longer!) Nonetheless, we are extremely lucky to have such cultural wealth. I remember walking into an antique store in Boston -plenty of buckets and milk jugs! Many Americans have a longing to explore their roots- we can laugh at the stereotype but the greatest treasure is often overlooked when it’s under our very noses!

    As for the essence of our identity, that's an organic evolution too….

    👍✨Will comment on this again-using a tablet to write on boards is an absolute pain 😅

    Watched/listened to the vid on Chaucer …eyes closed helped. Could make out a decent amount 65% ish -actually looking at the words after, made it more difficult. Discerning meaning by hearing alone is a good exercise.



  • Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    @Wibbs I haven't quoted your post from Saturday morning as I'm trying to avoid rabbit holes. But there's a particular inaccuracy that manages to insult both of us simultaneously, and it's bugging me. You evidently have a bugbear about being called a "West Brit". I haven't called you that, nor would I, and nor do I think it, so that's an insult you might need to reflect on yourself. I have a bit of a British background, and I'm quietly proud of it, so I'm not about to use a reference to Britishness or "West Brit" as a cheap insult*. What I did say is that you're an example of a Noisy Anglo - an English speaker whose perspective is narrowed by that and who talks over others because they don't share that Anglophone view. Noisy Anglos are plentiful here, as they are in the UK, the US and other Anglophone countries, so it isn't a "West Brit" thing. I guess you probably won't appreciate that, so I'll apologise straight away for any offence caused, but unfortunately that's just how it is. TBH I didn't start out with that view, but my experience of the exchange has changed my mind, so it's time I opted out.

    Le dea-mhéin (kind regards).


    *That refers to being British. Insulting Tories is a whole other ball game, just saying.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,292 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    You're remarkably quick to jump to assuming some percieved insult and perception of perjoratives. I have no bugbear about it, so lord knows where you got evidently from. 🤷‍♂️ It's just that as night follows day those who go against the grain of Irishness, and usually a narrow form of it, the "west brit" thing is sure to rear its head. "Noisy Anglo" is just a synonym really. There seems to be a fair bit of projection and assumption going on. Something I have found common in those with a drum to bang. That and a seeming inability to reflect on their own narrow perspectives.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I think a lot of people would like to see it - the question is at what cost? Disruption to their childrens' education? Increased taxes? It's also based on the assumption that other people are going to be doing the hard work, not them.

    That's when you're going to find a much more accurate figure.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,292 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    The "oldest language" thing is common to a few out there. Much of it born out of the late 19th century cultural revivals across Europe. Almost all of which were cultural revivals of non classical world cultures. Somewhat of a way to say it wasn't just the Greeks and Italians you know. There was also the pushback against increased industrialisation and a draw to earlier simpler times(tm) of legend. You had the Celtic of course and its many forms, Scots, Irish, Welsh, the Germanic, even the Zionist. That and a growing sense of independence for such cultures, not least here in Ireland. We got independence, the Scots got kilts and caber tossing. 😁 The English didn't get much out of it funny enough. Well, not much Anglo Saxon stuff had been found in the 19th century. Some have argued that Tolkien's Rings epic were a way to give suburban English people their own sagas.

    The problem with the revivalist stuff is a lot of legend was mixed in with fact. Vikings gained horned helmets, Scots got clan tartans. Irish being the oldest spoken language thing being another one of them. Even a cursory glance would show that to be extremely dubious. Now because Irish was the oldest non classical European language written down to any degree it meant we had a major advantage there as the Irish clergy wrote down so many of our legends that would have otherwise been lost. That they wrote them down at all was fortunate as the Roman church wouldn't have been too keen on that, but our insularity helped in a big way. That they wrote them down in Irish was unusual too, as Latin would have been the go to, especially as Irish had been an oral culture beforehand. We have great cultural wealth there and in the early medieval in general and in the much earlier prehistoric, much of it later claimed by the British as how could the thick paddies do this on their own.🤦‍♂️ Our insularity didn't help in other ways as the depth of our cultural heritage wouldn't be close to say Italy's. Basque was similarly insular, though in her case because of an "island" formed by mountain ranges to the south and the sea to the north and a fiercely indpendent bent in the Basques themselves.

    The oldest spoken languages in Europe? Basque is well ahead, Finnish would be another old one. Lithuanian keeps the most of the earlier structures of indo European languages. Irish and Welsh would be pretty old too and Irish would be the oldest non classical written language. The winner? Greek is the oldest spoken and written indo European language. In constant use, evolving over time as languages do and has been around for nearly five thousand years. Compared to Greek, Irish is a ten year old and English is still in the crib.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Watched/listened to the vid on Chaucer …eyes closed helped. Could make out a decent amount 65% ish -actually looking at the words after, made it more difficult. Discerning meaning by hearing alone is a good exercise.

    Chaucer's great craic, actually. So's Shakespeare.

    I find Gàidhlig a bit easier to read than to listen to. Its orthography is quite similar to Gaeilge (in fact, AFAIK it was taken from "pre-standardised" Irish), but there are some unexpected pronunciations. Gaelg (Manx) on the other hand, is like looking into a hedge. It sounds like a cross between Gàidhlig and Gaeilge, as you'd expect, but the orthography is utterly different, and seems to be based on English with a hint of Welsh. It means that when reading Manx you have to switch on English and Irish language codes at once - you have to use your Experience of English to "say what you see" in Gaelg. Have a look at this page (Wikipedia, so apply the usual health warnings). It shows Gaelg, Gàidhlig and Gaeilge versions of the Lord's Prayer (no English on display but you can look it up if you don't know it). You can see the connections for yourself, as well as the, er, "particular" use of the Roman alphabet in Gaelg.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    The bogtrotter/D4 stuff is more illuminating as far as your take on things goes, but I digress. Peig Sayers was indeed a seanchai and a huge repository of folk tales. This is good and good that her legacy was preserved. However the book Peig itself is overall about as charming as a lump of grit in your eye. With little enough respite early on it goes on to detail the various calamities that befall her and those around her. Few of those who had to suffer through it at school taking bets on who would fall off a cliff in the next chapter would describe it as "charming". It probably put more kids off the language than any other thing in the curriculum. How did they miss the charm I wonder?

    As I have already said, it is clear that you haven't read the book: it's not about the calamities that befell Peig. It's a simple story full of anecdotes about a young girl growing up. Only towards the end does she mention her adult life and some difficulties that happened after her marriage - but they are certainly not the general thrust of the book.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Just on your last point - there are whole societies where almost everyone is functionally bilingual. The only people who aren't are the few who have difficulty with their own mother tongue.

    I'd point you towards Belgium, for instance - in Flanders most if not all normal adults speak Dutch, English and French; and a lot speak German too. Move south to the Walloons, and you'll find most people are monolingual in French. This should point towards where the difficulty lies: not in innate ability, but in the culture an individual lives in. The French-speakers live in a culture that prizes monolingualism, just like most English-speaking countries - while the Flemish live in a culture that values and promotes an ability to speak several languages.

    A large proportion of Irish people fully subscribe to the Anglosphere's prized monolingualism, and feign astonishment at people who can speak another (non-Irish) language well. Another significant section of our society would rather go the Flemish route, and speak both Irish and English along with one or more other languages.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 408 ✭✭Hasschu


    My mother who was born in Kerry and spoke Gaelic and English on a daily basis recognised that her generation was the last that would be speaking in Gaelic on a daily basis. The best hope for Gaelic now is that it be made voluntary and readily available to anyone interested. Trying to foist it on Primary and Secondary School students who will be competing on an EU wide basis does not make sense. I have relatives that teach Gaelic in National Schools who recognise their children need French, German or Italian more than they need Gaelic. The Government has valiantly tried to resurrect Gaelic since 1921, time to face up to the harsh fact that it has failed. To continue flogging a dread horse in hope that it will get up and gallop away is akin to insanity. I have nothing against Gaelic, I am concerned that Irish people continue to compete successfully in the world beyond the parish pump.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Not all languages have changed as rapidly as English: medieval Icelandic can apparently be read by modern Icelanders.

    Also, an educated native Irish speaker - by which I mean someone who has studied Irish literature to the same extent as a Leaving Cert honours English student would have studied English literature - would make a very good fist of understanding the Irish written around the time of Chaucer. Indeed, I have a book here that was translated into Irish - apparently from Latin - around that period, and I can understand most of it fairly easily - in fact the biggest difficulty is pre-caighdeán spelling. In fact, if the speling was standardised, anyone who reads Irish on a regular basis could understand it. Writing in 1914, the editor comments on the text:

    ... no evidence has been found of linguistic peculiarities not in the spoken language of, say, the last five hundred years .... The forms are practically those in use amongst good speakers of Irish at the present day.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    In reality, Manx is a dialect of Scots Gaelic, written according to English/Welsh orthography.

    For instance, they have something like (Not certain of the spelling in either case!):

    Ha mee graa = Tha mi ag ràdh



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    True, but the difference there is praticality.

    The extra languages are learnt as a necessity. When English is your first language and you live in a majority native-English speaking country, that goes out of the window.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I really wonder if every school in Kerry was Irish medium ever, never mind in 1990.

    Fair play to you in learning Greek, French and English though, not to mention your wife's five languages. Surprisingly, most Irish people I know who are multilingual are neutral to favorable regarding Irish, evidently there are exceptions like yourself.

    BTW - if you are actually from Kerry - why do you use the Donegal dialect word to refer to Irish?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,825 ✭✭✭Evade


    Also speaking the worlds most common second language as your first really disincentivises learning another.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    With the exception of pidgins and creoles such as English, Sranan, Tok Pisin etc, in my book all languages are equally ancient - they are merely the most recent version of whatever went before. French is merely the version of Latin spoken in Gaul, Spanish the version of Latin spoken in much of Spain and Latin America etc. These Romance dialects are not mutually intelligible with Latin perhaps, or even with one another - although knowing one makes it very very easy to learn any of the others.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    Obviously I will let the poster answer but "Gaelic" is the form that has made it into the English language and, when speaking English, would be the natural word therefore to use.



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  • Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That's a fair comment, although I am aware of one or two people with a "Dalriada" theory to the effect that there was a continuum of Irish spoken across South Ulster, the IoM and SW Scotland. I think it's a bit fanciful and "Dalriada" like, but sometimes I can see where they're coming from, and I don't have the technical knowledge to challenge them anyway. Nowadays we think of Irish as having three canúintí that are distinct, separate, and of course limited in geographical range. But there was a time when hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of people spoke "Gaelic" in a continuous arc along the Western counties, across two strands of Ulster, and then into the IoM, mainland Scotland and the western Isles. Rather than separate dialects, you'd have detected a continuum of language with phrases and words changing as you travelled. Echoes of that can be seen in the similarities between the Hebrides and Tory and the last native Fanad speakers, and the hints of Gàidhlig detected in Gaeilge Oiriall (the sub-dialect spoken in Monaghan, Armagh and the Cooley Peninsula until the 1930s), as well as the way in which the Irish of SW Donegal is like a mixture of the classic Donegal Irish and Connacht Irish.


    "Gaelic" is a very odd word for any Irish person to use to describe the Irish language, whether from Munster, Donegal or Dublin. "Gaelic" in reference to the language is very much a Scottish word, made all the more confusing because of their specific pronunciation - for the uninitiated, because it's the English for Gàidhlig, they pronounce it like "Gallic" when referring to the language. The word "Gaelic" is widely used in Canada, particularly in the Maritimes, but not pronounced in the Scottish manner.



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