The creeping prominence of the Irish language

cj maxx · 08-10-2021 12:29PM

Reading this thread has shown me how Irish has 'died ' even since my youth (80's90's). There used to be shops , normally sweet shops/ small convenience shops, that would have a Siopá ? sign outside to indicate Irish was welcome to use as the language.

Alot of towns had similar shops. I don't see them now.

08-10-2021 03:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991840#Comment_117991840

Your words about colonial history and languages are fine, and probably even accurate (I gave them a speed-read, TBH), but not relevant to the point I was making. Whatever the history was, you were still wrong to draw an equivalence between the proposal made by @gormdubhgorm and the imperialist violence that led to the suppression of Irish.

Likewise, I'm as familiar as anyone with "store". But I never referenced the word. I've never given much thought to where it comes from or why it gets used the way it does, whereas I was once given an explanation and a note by someone about the word "mom", which is why I mentioned it.

When using pejorative language to dismiss other views, it's a good idea to avoid writing something that itself isn't backed up by any sources and that gives off a strong pong of particular cultural reasoning and a specific cultural mindset. If you want to dig up experts that's up to you - ar ndóigh, ní cead ach foinsí scríofa san Ollainnis, san Iodáilis, sa tSualainnis, sa Ghearmáinis, nó san Eabhrais (nó fiú amháin sa Ghiúdais).

Word and expression "origin stories" can be interesting. In my experience, however, discussions of that nature tend to become bogged down in definitions and descriptions of jynnan tonnyx.

whisky_galore · 08-10-2021 03:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992534#Comment_117992534

Such shops where they're still actually open are being covered in generic corporate plastic these days. Centra-fication.

Wibbs · 08-10-2021 03:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993647#Comment_117993647

While the English were utter bastards in how they operated in this nation "imperialist violence" is stretching things a tad regarding the language. The good old Catholic church pushed English, the great liberator himself Daniel O’Connell while fluent in Irish and expressing regret at its likely demise also pushed english as an advantage and before the Famine too. Catholic Emancipation also encouraged the use of english to get ahead. The English(well, after the Normans anyway) came here by sword and pike and blood bringing their language with them, but its demise was just as much down to basic economics and increased opportunity among Irish people themselves. If the French had invaded us we'd be speaking French. They followed this trend among the diaspora too. Dropping it like a hot rock at the gates of Ellis Island and as has been noted those Irish people were almost entirely from Irish speaking areas. It would have been easy for them to keep it going to a much greater degree, but they didn't. Then we kicked London out for good and even with all the promotion and incentives it still kept dropping in use. Even kids schooled and fluent in the language revert to english beyond the school gates. How quickly would TG4's viewership drop if they got rid of english subtitles?

The problem I see is that the enthusiasts for the language like yourself and Gorm assume a similar active enthusiasm for the language among the rest of the Irish population and want its return as a community language when the clear evidence in front of us strongly suggests quite the opposite is in play. If the 40% that claim on the census to be Irish speakers actually existed we wouldn't be having this conversation, nor would we require top down imposed cultural revivals. One only needs to revive something that's dying. CPR is of no use to those in rude health. People vote with their feet and their tongues and it seems that vote is in.

I am not against supporting the language, especially in areas where it is still spoken. Nor am I against support for those enthusiasts in it. I am against wasting even more time, money and effort to have some top down imposed artificial cultural revival where it's not needed nor asked for by the people of this nation.

PS I don't know where you're getting "perjorative language" from? I can do perjorative language til the cows come home and that wasn't it. Oh and there's a rule on this site that anything(outside of language specific forums) not written in english is to have a translation, regardless of the language. Though that rule came in on the back of some Irish speakers who wanted to be obtuse or to make a point. Now I can get the gist of that line, but I'd bet the farm a majority reading your post wouldn't without recourse to online translation. Which is another sign of the general lack of comprehension around the langauge.

Demonique · 08-10-2021 08:39PM

I'd be more concerned about signposts only being in irish in some parts of the country

Or the creeping yankification, you're not a mommy you're a mammy or a mum FFS

gormdubhgorm · 08-10-2021 09:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993816#Comment_117993816

Maybe I did not make myself clear. In the Irish language debate I believe there are fringes such as the OP who for some reason feels threatened by the Irish language even something as benign as Irish signage. On the other side you have Irish language 'activists'. Which are the polar opposite to the OP.

But there is a middle ground in Ireland with are not 'enthusiasts' as you describe them or hobbyists - words/groupings you have used to conflate those with any interest in the Irish language at all.

I believe the middle ground in Ireland whether they speak the Irish language regularly or not are proud of it. Whether they speak it regularly or not much at all. Or even have no Irish. It is latent pride.

Just on the other poster saying that you used pejoratives. I assume that poster you refer to in the above post means words such as 'hobbyists' and 'enthusiasts'. Which could seem pejorative to some.

But I do not believe that is your intent as you do not seem to grasp that the Irish language is cultural to Ireland. Part of Ireland itself.

As you have already demonstrated that you see no difference to playing a certain type of music (as a hobby) to those with any interest in furthering their interest or knowledge of the Irish language. It is not just a hobby for 'hobbyists' 'enthusiasts'. You seem to infer it is no different to someone bird watching or making model planes. It is no way comparable.

I have already tried to explain to you that the Irish language is cultural and part of Ireland. It might have been yourself that even mentioned Hibero-English. Which in itself proves how tied the Irish language is to Ireland. Even through the use of another tongue. I also mentioned the different turns of phrases you get in Irish that you do not get in English.

In the English have no where near the same level of turns of phrase for insults/curses on people. In Irish it is extremely descriptive.

For example:

https://daltai.com/proverbs/relationships-dealing-with-others/blessings-curses/go-ndeine-an-diabhal-dreimire-de-cnamh-do-dhroma-ag-piocadh-ull-i-ngairdin/

Go ndeine an diabhal dréimire de cnámh do dhroma ag piocadh úll i ngairdín Ifrinn.

May the devil make a ladder of your backbone picking apples in the garden of hell.

--

I did see an alternative to the above where it includes dancing on the flowers of your grave in the garden of hell. As well as the making a ladder of your backbone part!

--

Whether people use Irish or not in Ireland it is definitely part of Irish culture. The EU recognise this in the various member states. In various case law to do with traditions of member states (wines, beers etc), and protect native languages of Member States. Giving it status. And symbolism.

I will discuss this in more detail later in broader sense. And more directly how the Irish language is treated in the EU.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-10-2021 10:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995156#Comment_117995156

I'd consider anyone who wants to rejig the entire education system into irish pretty much an activist, to be honest.

I take your point about culture, but again - just because something is cultural doesn't mean it has to be worshipped and participated in by everyone within the cultual perspective. Opting out is totally acceptable and shouldn't be met with prejoratives either. In some cases, I'd argue that culture isn't even a positive thing, because it assumes following and devotion without question and that's how freedoms start to be eroded.

gormdubhgorm · 08-10-2021 11:03PM

The OP despite being an Irish citizen and an EU citizen, seems to view Irish language signage etc as a threat. And the OP's mantra seems to be 'out of sight, out of mind'

This is contrary to the approach of the EU. The EU supports cultural heritage of the member states.

https://ec.europa.eu/culture/cultural-heritage

'Europe’s cultural heritage is a rich and diverse mosaic of cultural and creative expressions, an inheritance from previous generations of Europeans and a legacy for those to come. It includes natural, built and archaeological sites, museums, monuments, artworks, historic cities, literary, musical and audiovisual works, and the knowledge, practices and traditions of European citizens.

While policy in this area is primarily the responsibility of Member States, regional and local authorities, the EU is committed to safeguarding and enhancing Europe's cultural heritage through a number of policies and programmes.'

--

Culture of an area does not solely include language, but goods.

This has been viewed in more practical terms about what constitutes 'Champagne' following case law and a resulting regulation in 1987:

https://eu.vlex.com/vid/council-regulation-eec-no-852794763

'Sparkling wine produced in the French region of Champagne enjoys, within the Community, the protected designation ‘quality wine produced in special regions’ (quality wine psr), in accordance with Council Regulation (EEC) No 823/87 of 16 March 1987 laying down special provisions relating to quality wines produced in specified regions.'

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The EU is known for it's Multilingual Approach.

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/scplps/ecblwp2.pdf

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/about-parliament/en/organisation-and-rules/multilingualism

'The European Union has always seen its great diversity of cultures and languages as an asset. Firmly rooted in the European treaties, multilingualism is the reflection of this cultural and linguistic diversity. It also makes the European institutions more accessible and transparent for all citizens of the Union, which is essential for the success of the EU’s democratic system.'

--

The Irish Language was given the status of an official language of the EU in 2005:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0613/64223-irishlanguage/

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Yes I do realise it is symbolism! And I have already stated how I would much prefer more practical measures.

Just on the Irish Language translators in the EU. I found a video which shows the behind the scenes work one of them is doing in Brussels.

Surrounded by reams of books even 'Gramadach Gan Stro' which amused me when I saw the cover.

https://www.schoolbooksdirect.ie/learning-teaching/books/gramadach-gan-stro

https://youtu.be/L-iCuTVoXec

The Irish translators, translate all sorts of EU legislation and documents into Irish.

What struck me was that the translator in the clip above 'Tammy Ní Laoire' said she gets to use more Irish in Brussels than 'at home'. It really highlights the oddness of the situation for me.

--

I also realise the reality of the situation of how little Irish Ministers use Irish when at EU meetings.

Despite Irish being an official language of the EU

From 2013:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-spoken-nine-times-at-eu-meetings-1.955884

--

It is why I believe instead of half doing the job and having documents translated into Irish. Irish given a symbolic official language status along with 23 others. It is about time more practical steps were taken. Rather than airy, fairy type stuff. There is not much point in creating a nice house that has no proper plumbing and electricity.

Added to that is the 'anti-Irish brigade' much like mica in houses they will gradually cause 'the house' to crumble. There needs to be much more practical work done to prevent it.

Upforthematch · 08-10-2021 11:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993816#Comment_117993816

The problem I see is that the enthusiasts for the language like yourself and Gorm assume a similar active enthusiasm for the language among the rest of the Irish population and want its return as a community language when the clear evidence in front of us strongly suggests quite the opposite is in play. If the 40% that claim on the census to be Irish speakers actually existed we wouldn't be having this conversation, nor would we require top down imposed cultural revivals. One only needs to revive something that's dying. CPR is of no use to those in rude health. People vote with their feet and their tongues and it seems that vote is in.

I bet you won the debating contests in school! But when you read your point carefully there are a few non-sequiturs there.

One only needs to revive something that's dying.

Spot on, Irish is dead as a community language, has been for some time.

If the 40% that claim on the census to be Irish speakers actually existed we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Not exactly. Go look at the census results and pay close attention to the questions asked: "Can you speak Irish?" "How often do you speak it?" It doesn't ask if they can speak it well or fluently. What it does show is that 40% have a connection with the language (with a geographical split, closer to 50% in the west; 30% in North East)

People vote with their feet and their tongues and it seems that vote is in.

Exactly - 40% on average have a connection with an undead language. Now, that is surprising!

It explains why there is a large middle ground that opposes attempts to diminish the status of the language.

I am not against supporting the language, especially in areas where it is still spoken.

As a community language, it is spoken practically nowhere.

Nor am I against support for those enthusiasts in it.

I'd be interested to hear how much support you are talking about here, considering your next sentence?

I am against wasting even more time, money and effort to have some top down imposed artificial cultural revival where it's not needed nor asked for by the people of this nation.

It's not an "imposed artificial cultural revival" - it is the CPR programme that the people are asking for. The question "Do you speak Irish?" in reality is a proxy for "Do you have a (vague and unbinding) wish to speak Irish?" So long as people keep answering yes to this question, Irish will continue to be supported generously and children will be given the opportunity to learn it to an "advanced beginner level". And that is a good thing.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp10esil/p10esil/ilg/

Upforthematch · 08-10-2021 11:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995800#Comment_117995800

In some cases, I'd argue that culture isn't even a positive thing, because it assumes following and devotion without question and that's how freedoms start to be eroded.

Not sure what you are eluding to here? While I don't agree with gormdubhgorm's educational reform either I don't think the poster is advocating anything close to oppression or "devotion without question" here!

08-10-2021 11:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993816#Comment_117993816

Your first paragraph is an effective demonstration of the inability of people to see outside their cultural bubble. I see it mostly from people with an Anglo-centric perspective, though in fairness it's a common human failing.

As to your second, you're not a mind reader. I don't assume enthusiasm. I assume either indifference or the kind of hostility one normally sees from noisy Anglos. If you were less inclined to lazy and narrow-minded thinking, you'd have noticed that @gormdubhgorm and I don't quite see things the same way as regards Irish. The fact that you can't really tell us apart says a lot about you.

For similar reasons to the above, I don't believe your third paragraph.

If you don't don't use pejorative language, I won't say that you do.

I went looking for the rules, and couldn't find them. If you're a moderator making an observation, my recollection is that you're supposed to indicate that. If you're not, are we supposed to engage in backseat moderation?

And I can't take you seriously when you mention being obtuse to make a point in light of your previous immature and obtuse remark about "and not from an Irish language source if possible".

On a message forum, you are what you post, which makes you a bad-faith actor spending far too much time and energy trying to diss a language. Just another noisy Anglo, and the country has a surfeit of those.

(Not a word of Irish. Or Dutch. Or Italian. Or Swedish. Or German. Or Hebrew. Or even Yiddish. Happy now?)

gormdubhgorm · 08-10-2021 11:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995800#Comment_117995800

I am no activist I would not go out and about with placards etc. I see the 'Acht na Gaeilge'/Irish language Act in NI for what it is, symbolism. Pointless in the greater scheme of things IMO.

More practical measures cannot be done in NI for obvious reasons. But, in the ROI they can. My suggestion while although radical on the face of it - it Is much less of an imposition. than the ones which caused the decline of the Irish language in the first place. I did not propose banning English and so on. Or taking up arms and so on.

Just simply using Irish as the medium for education. Maybe not the secondary schools (as I appreciate the difficulties) but it should be easy enough to do in preschools and primary school level.

No one is harmed in any way shape or form and the children pick up Irish fast. Not through grammar and rote learning. But just by kids, being kids. Through Irish at school.

I know well it would have no notion of happening. Because the reality is as Wibbs implied the real will is not there. The majority of people in Ireland would like if they had more Irish, 'it would be a pity if it went' etc.

But due to the 'new normal' created under English rule. The Irish people have gotten lazy, at the end of the day. In particular as English is the lingua franca of the world. It makes most Irish people not too bothered with languages in general, never mind Irish.

I read the problem summed up neatly as follows:

'Deep-rooted, or even unconscious, fears and biases about their language, often stemming from colonial attitudes, all of which can be serious impediments to revitalization. In general, it is not uncommon to find a general sense that revitalization would be a good idea, without a full understanding of or commitment to the sustained level of effort required to actually achieve it. '

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/libraryResearch/2016/2016-11-07_l-rs-note-the-irish-language-a-linguistic-crisis_en.pdf

deirdremf · 08-10-2021 11:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968567#Comment_117968567

Translation and printing for Irish language versions of various state documents

So in your opinion, documents should only be produced in English?

that don't get used / requested in Irish.

How do you know they don't get used in Irish? And if they don't, could it be because they don't get used in English either? Are you against documents being produced in English when they just get left sitting on a shelf?

The total roadsign replacement in Gaeltachts.

Did you also object to the extremely expensive replacement of mileage signs by kilometre signs back in 2002/03?

The costs of state agencies updating all materials to reflect renaming

Again, this was a phased change, with bodies allowed to use up old material.

The plebiscites to try fix renaming in areas where it was contentious

How many plebiscites were there and how much did they cost?

Remaking street signs to fix the language order.

You do realise that roadsign are naturally replaced after a period? The Official Languages Act actually stipulated a twenty year period for replacement. Recognising that signs would be changed over time. The only time there was wastage was when someone fukkd up and made illegal signs. Do you think they should have been made pay for their mistake?

deirdremf · 08-10-2021 11:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968765#Comment_117968765

Can you point out any study that shows it to be incontestably detrimental?

or even slightly detrimental?

Or maybe you decided to keep on smoking as a one person protest against the Irish on the box!!!

08-10-2021 11:53PM

If we could harness half of these long winded self important posts we could power the national grid for the entire winter.

08-10-2021 11:55PM

By the way, @gormdubhgorm, while I understand your point about the symbolism involved in the Acht na Gaeilge campaign, I do admire the liveliness of the Irish language community and scene in the North. It is definitely more vibrant and (I think) younger than in the South (although the likes of Ola Majekodunmi and Ciara Ní É would beg to differ). The politics is part of the attraction, but it's not all about that. No disrespect to Sinn Féin, but I used to think all Irish speakers in the North were members of that party. But they aren't. Also, I think a big thing that influences the visibility of Irish in the North is the Cultúrlann. By being an open and public facility, with a variety of services, it has created a space where Irish speakers know they can go 7 days of the week and speak, listen to and engage with others in Irish. Cairde Turas does something similar though on a smaller scale in East Belfast. But there isn't a space like that anywhere in the South, and especially not in Dublin.

gormdubhgorm · 09-10-2021 12:12AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996070#Comment_117996070

It is probably a bias on my part. If I had my way I would keep the Irish Language debate separate from tense type politics like NI. I just don't like it how both sides are playing it, it all seems very insincere to me.

I remember talking to a fella from the Donegal Gaeltacht. I asked him why he did not wear a fainne. He was very sheepish about it. And I asked is it because of connotations some people would draw IRA/Republican etc. And he admitted it was.

Anyway, I am starting to feel I have been trolled a bit in this thread by the OP. But the OP has even got fed up of me (apparently) which is a little bit amusing in itself.

At this stage I would only be repeating myself anyway. However, it was kind of constructive in some sense, in that I could lay out my thoughts on the whole thing. And guage the opinions of others.

But ironically, by posting on the OP's thread about signage. Other posters such as @Wibbs and @Princess Consuela Bananahammock have placed various new names on me which I was previously unaware of 'Irish Activist', 'Irish Enthusiast' and 'Irish Hobbyist'.

I am just Irish, as far as I know!

deirdremf · 09-10-2021 12:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969267#Comment_117969267

I think you'll generally find that Mum and Dad didn't like Irish either. IMO this is the usual situation, and they pass on their hatred to their kids.

I once worked with a typical example, she never missed an opportunity to bad-mouth Irish; so I was completely unsurprised then one day when I heard her in the canteen telling all and sundry that "Of course my daughter can't stand Irish".

She'd come out with choice comments too on other matters - one that sticks in my mind is that "My husband has a high-powered job". Another day she was talking about her (then) most recent holiday in Florida "And it wasn't expensive at all, it didn't cost much more than €10,000".

Somehow I have always felt that her range of attitudes fitted together like the pieces of a jigsaw.

deirdremf · 09-10-2021 12:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969494#Comment_117969494

When the State and it's various arms refuse to deal with me in the Official language of my choice, but provide all its services to another person in the official language of their choice, then I am being singled out for different, poorer treatment than that other person. This is the very definition of discrimination. Regardless of your opinion.

09-10-2021 12:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996108#Comment_117996108

I suspect a lot of the language stuff in the North is as insincere as you suspect. I was a fluent speaker when I left school, but I backed away because I was concerned, wrongly as it happens, about the "creeping prominence" of Republican politics amongst Irish speakers at the time (a very long time ago). I didn't speak Irish for over 30 years, only getting back to it a few years ago. Is mór dá aiféala atá orm faoi sin; I regret that a lot. But there's no use crying over spilt milk.

That said, I've met many Irish speakers from the North, from all walks of life and all corners of politics, and when you do get into conversation it's generally personal and rarely performative.

I wouldn't be concerned about the labels. It's more of the same old same old.

deirdremf · 09-10-2021 12:45AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970640#Comment_117970640

I read Peig many years after leaving school, and it is clear that you have never read it because there is nothing like that in it at all. It is simply a charming little story of a girl growing up in the late 19th century.

Not modern enough for D4, not even in the mid-20th century. But Peig was a seanchaí - a storyteller - and the story she told was tailored to a young adolescent or pre-adolescent age group. Give it a read, if you do you'll be surprised at the level of distaste so many have for the book. Generally I'd say they never read it - but they surely heard that it was about a bogtrotter so it must be dreadful!

09-10-2021 01:16AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989332#Comment_117989332

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989528#Comment_117989528

Listen, several long-standing posters have explained to you ad infinitum why forcing every single child to be educated through Irish would be unwanted by many and counterproductive, how it's ironic given you cite the measures that were used to kill off Irish but want to force school children to be educated exclusively in a language that isn't their mother tongue; you seem incapable of taking on board their views, you have an almost paternalistic, I-know-better attitude to them. It reminds of a debate I had with you on the GAA forum re name-calling where you totally ignored the forum charter, the mods and most of all your targets because you were right and contrary opinions were inherently wrong. How about you try to put yourself in the shoes of those that don't want to be educated exclusively through Irish or don't want their kids to educated in such a fashion, i.e. show some empathy.

gormdubhgorm · 09-10-2021 01:59AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996192#Comment_117996192

1) I honestly have no idea what you are talking about regarding the GAA. Given you have 35 posts in total on this site (at the time of writing) it must have been a brief discussion. Also cross posting on threads is not permitted on boards.ie in any case. It is not relevant to the current debate in any case

2) Again in my suggestion no one is 'forced' they would have the option of a private education through English in my idea or homeschooling if they prefer those are options. Or some halfway house where a majority could find agreement. But it is the only logical way I can think of to quickly have some sort of language reversal chance in 20 years. That would be real 'prominence'.

Get people speaking the language at a very young age and they will have it. If the majority of Irish people are as fond of Irish as they claim - whether they speak the language or not - and do not wish it to die out as a community language. There should be no issue.

I did not mention banning the English language or violence or anything of the like. Simply using Irish in the medium of education.

What I am suggesting is not to 'kill off' English. It is to improve the knowledge and fluency of Irish in the young. And in future the two will work in tandem.

In the past when the British ruled the ROI they did not want Irish to exist at all. I am not calling for English to be 'killed off' in reverse that is your conflation.

My idea is merely a suggestion, where Irish can be given a stronger practical foothold. And I already have stated why I came to such a conclusion. A number of times already.

I cannot explain it much more detail. It is in order to see how much the 'middle ground' are willing to move forwards with the Irish language. Or if it is lip service?

3) You say show some empathy, have you read the tone of this thread and the very first OP?

I believe I have been very understanding of the alternative viewpoint of the OP. And I kept asking why what was the 'root cause' of this viewpoint. And the WHY the OP felt threatened by Irish language signage etc.

I did not receive an answer as to why, at all.

Which says a lot in itself. The OP has 'underlying issues' with the Irish language in general IMO. I could be wrong but it seems that way. Unfortunately, we will likely now never know the answer.

--

Would you describe phraseology such as 'creeping prominence' in the thread title as

a) Knowledgeable of the Irish language situation in law - both domestically and at European level?

b) A reflection of reality?

c) Empathetic?

d) An attack on the Irish language?

e) Irrational fear?

f) Other?

--

I have already posted Lig Dom which demonstrated the level of 'empathy' Irish speakers receive in their own country. That is the reality of it and to claim that the Irish language has a prominence is completely, disingenuous IMO. As nothing could be further from the truth in a broader practical sense in daily life.

https://www.rte.ie/player/movie/lig-liom/90131496385

--

Anyway rather than attacking the poster and not the post. Have you any comments on what the OP is suggesting? Or have you any suggestions on the Irish language debate in general?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 09-10-2021 03:54AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995933#Comment_117995933

I never said he was - I was refering to the concept of culture generally and his assumption that it's automatically positive.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 09-10-2021 04:06AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995957#Comment_117995957

Fair point, radical is a better discription than activist.

I - and several other posters - have already gone over the bit where it most certainly is not easy (changing entire syllabus, and finding enough teachers to teach all subjects at the same quality in Irish as is done in English) and most certainly not painless (not every kid picks up languages as fast as you think and it's going to cause a lot of completely unnecessary stress and upheaval at a vitally important point of their lives) but you seem to repeatedly ignore that.

I've yet to meet a four/five year old with and fear or bias stemming from colonial attitude.

You're going to have to accept that, for a lot of people, that's complete bullshit and the bias stems from complete indifference towards the langauge and that alone. Also, radicals like yourself wanting to force other people's kids to adjust to a new language at the start of their education just so they can allegedly a revive a language.

Ultimately, you don't give a **** about the kids. This is all about the language for you and soundbites like the above are just confirmation bias.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 09-10-2021 04:11AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996132#Comment_117996132

And I would agree - if you want to be delt with in Irish, you should have that right. If the person you are dealing with does not speak Irish, then and Irish-speaking alternative should be found.

The only exception to that would be the police or hospital in the case of an investigation or emergency where time is an important factor.

Hasschu · 09-10-2021 05:57AM

The tide went out for Gaelic around 1890 by independence 1921 it was in the Intensive Care Unit. In Kerry Primary and Secondary school instruction in all subjects was in Gaelic until around 1990. I never spoke a word of Gaelic after I left school in Ireland. At various times I worked in Greek, French and of course English. My German wife speaks five languages and operates professionally in three, English, French and German we are in Canada which has two official languages French and English. The French here are heavily intermarried with the Irish, the Quebec Premier has stated that 40 % of Quebecers have Irish blood. The fact is Gaelic is dead but there is a refusal to bury the body. Ireland has come through tough times and survived with emigration playing a large part. We are free to work any where in the EU some thought should be given to teaching French, German or Italian in primary and secondary schools. The USA which was the usual safety net is becoming a spent force unfortunately. My children and grandchildren have and are receiving instruction in English, French and German. If someone off a farm in Kerry can master foreign languages then anyone can do it.

sydthebeat · 09-10-2021 08:16AM

Cuir an breac san eangach sula gcuire tú sa phota é.

Never a truer word was spoken

looksee · 09-10-2021 09:27AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996345#Comment_117996345

What an odd post. You seem to suggest that Kerry farmers are particularly dim? You don't seem to be aware of the convention of referring to the Irish language as Irish when speaking English. And you are not aware that secondary school children do learn French and (sometimes) other languages, and primary and secondary children do in fact learn Irish on a regular basis.

Going back to the rest of the discussion, anecdotally, on the subject of all education being through Irish, my husband was a non-native Irish speaker who did all his education, including degrees, through Irish. (his master's thesis, on the topic of teaching Breton as a foreign language in France, is still around, typed in the old Irish script). One of the minor side effects of this was that he was at something of a loss when dealing with science or maths as he often did not know the word to describe, say, geometrical angles or scientific processes. He knew the stuff but was often stuck for the English language word, which was his regular and preferred means of communication. I am not claiming this is anyway conclusive of anything, but maybe a balance of usefulness might be found.

Wibbs · 09-10-2021 10:29AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995950#Comment_117995950

Good god man, spit it out. 😂 Just call me a west brit and be done with it. It would save keystrokes and establish your position more clearly.

Your first paragraph is an effective demonstration of the inability of people to see outside their cultural bubble.

Ironies all over the place. My first paragraph has as much if not more truth to it than the simplistic it was all the brit's fault. Such things are never so simplistic. For the craic dispute my points.

And I can't take you seriously when you mention being obtuse to make a point in light of your previous immature and obtuse remark about "and not from an Irish language source if possible".

That's standard operating procedure when looking at cultural and historical claims. You look at external sources to corroborate internal ones, because biases abound.

On a message forum, you are what you post, which makes you a bad-faith actor spending far too much time and energy trying to diss a language. Just another noisy Anglo, and the country has a surfeit of those.

Man talk about going on the defensive. As I said just call me a west brit and be done with it. You know you want to. 😁

As far as Gaelic and Gaeilgeoirí go, I'm too often reminded of Gandhi's take on Christ and Christians.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996162#Comment_117996162

The bogtrotter/D4 stuff is more illuminating as far as your take on things goes, but I digress. Peig Sayers was indeed a seanchai and a huge repository of folk tales. This is good and good that her legacy was preserved. However the book Peig itself is overall about as charming as a lump of grit in your eye. With little enough respite early on it goes on to detail the various calamities that befall her and those around her. Few of those who had to suffer through it at school taking bets on who would fall off a cliff in the next chapter would describe it as "charming". It probably put more kids off the language than any other thing in the curriculum. How did they miss the charm I wonder?

It associated the language with the old, out of date, poor and and clay piped rural, and a morose subsection of them with it, all windswept and uninteresting. It was part of the misery porn trend in some Irish literature and it and its ilk were brilliantly parodied in Irish in O'Nolan's An Beal Bocht(the poor mouth). He seems to have missed this charm too. He also beautifully extracts the urine out of the misery porn seeking urban obsessive gaeilgeoirí who show up to instruct the locals on how to be truly Irish, but the realities of the misery prove a tad too real for them and they bugger off. Old Myles na gCopaleen is still somewhat relevant today. Far more than Peig ever was. That's still worth a read in any language.

The creeping prominence of the Irish language

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