The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-10-2021 06:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989404#Comment_117989404

it is forced. Either you give families an opt-out (the status quo) or you force it.

gormdubhgorm · 07-10-2021 06:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989624#Comment_117989624

I already gave the opt out a reversal of the status quo.

Where English is currently the main medium of education (which was historically forced ironically)

To a ‘new normal’ Free State Irish Education through the medium of Irish.

And those who want the English medium/or other can set up non state schools privately funded. Or alternatively completely opt out and home school.

No forcing at all there.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-10-2021 06:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989648#Comment_117989648

So you're advocating a situation whereby the State is absolved of its' responsibility to provide an education in one of the official State langauges? Did not think you'd be a fan of that...

And it is forcing, if you wilfully provide only one option.

Cluedo Monopoly · 07-10-2021 06:17PM

I personally don't like the Irish language. I never did. I also think way too much money is wasted on it to artificially keep it alive. The official translation costs must be astronomical in government and EU.

I also think that Gaelscoils were initially created so that Irish parents could segregate their kids from foreigners.

shockframe · 07-10-2021 06:50PM

Making Irish mandatory in schools leads to a fair bit of the disdain shown towards it.

I barely scraped a pass mark in Junior Cert Ordinary level and did absolutely nothing for it in 5th year. More or less started studying about 2 months before the Leaving exam. Got the Pass mark and that was that for Irish.

I knew at the very start of 5th year I wasn't going to be including it in my marks by the time I got my results so it was the least important subject by some distance for me. Every other subject was prioritized way above it. Even failing it wouldn't have bothered me all that much.

It's only my story but I would safely say that over 70% of my Leaving Cert year showed the same indifference towards it.

Other than GAA on TG4 I've no interaction with it. I might annoy people saying it but I find the Irish language a nuisance.

Of the 30 hours or so in the school week 3 of them were devoted to something that turned out to be a complete waste. If it's status in schools was scrapped I would be very confident that time allocated to other subjects like in STEM would be hugely beneficial to students and leaving cert results.

Fishdoodle · 07-10-2021 06:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989648#Comment_117989648

Its an idea…. but not enough competent teachers with Irish to implement across all schools. Can’t see that working. Certainly there seems plenty of demand for all Irish pre schools than there are spaces..

As an aside: re Irish Language Bill

https://youtu.be/lUk6i-vXCnc

Gov seeking written submissions on how a better service through Irish might be provided to the public.

https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/a52c3-public-consultation-for-the-new-irish-language-scheme/

Fishdoodle · 07-10-2021 07:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989812#Comment_117989812

-The whole system is points driven. I’d imagine little time was given to conversational Irish/drama?

Evade · 07-10-2021 07:09PM

I was in a gaelscoil/gaelcholaiste up until second year when my family moved and I switched to an English school. At the time I was better at conversational Irish than both of the Irish teachers I had there, they obviously had a better grasp of the technical parts, but 15+ years later I'd struggle put a sentence together, beyond the big three. If I actively studied it I could probably regain fluency but why? No one speaks it, there's no great films or TV series I'll miss out on, and I don't have much of an interests in reading the classics (in English or Irish). Take it off life support and let those that are interested pursue it and don't inflict it on those that aren't.

Switching the language your education is delivered in has its own issues, I had a lot of trouble trying to figure out what the first and second year maths questions were asking when we were revising for the Junior Cert. Luckily I was interested in science as a child so the English terms were familiar already.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-10-2021 07:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989885#Comment_117989885

Therein lies the biggest problem - to most kids, it's a school subject and not a language.

Wibbs · 07-10-2021 08:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989528#Comment_117989528

There is no stick with my suggestion no banning of English. Just state education through Irish. Easily done at preschool and primary school level a proliferation of people looking for primary school jobs who have passed the Irish exam.

Which would be an imposition of language for cultural/political ends. As you term it "colonial reversal".

But I would argue that it would actually SAVE money in the long term. No more money thrown at the Irish language for the sake of it - such as signage.

Adding Irish to signage costs feck all and all the current money thrown around would still be in play after your great reset, so no savings there. However you'd have to completely revamp the curriculum, print books etc and find and train teachers to a fluency standard in short order. That would cost extra big money, mucho effort and take time.

Colonial reversal on the Irish language might not work 100% but it would do a damn lot better than the current half assed attempt.

The question remains as always; why bother? The Irish people as a majority haven't been bothered for over a century, the requirement for Irish has actually been dialled back in that time as has the language itself and has been on life support or in the hands of enthusiasts. Irish language schools have been one of the few more recent pluses in the whole affair and even there they account for just under 200 out of over 3000 primary schools in the country. The percentage of secondary schools is even smaller.

And why do you think the atempts are half arsed and have been so and have actually reduced over the last few decades? The will of the people quite simply just isn't there. At best they're happy to tick the Irish box on a census because they have the cupla focal that would embarrass a native speaking toddler, or would express a generalised "ah sure I'd hate to see it die out", but beyond that it again lays in the mouths of the enthusiast and hobbyist and a small number of actual native speakers. Never mind that I can't think of a single language that has come back from the levels of fluency in the population that Irish has to a community language. Even Welsh which has come back in recent decades never dropped below 40 odd percent in fluent daily speakers at the start of the 20th century and even so currently the percentage is more like 20 odd percent speakers. It still dropped. Hebrew was indeed a success but for very different reasons than exist in Ireland.

Your idea of a referendum on it is a good one. Put it in the Irish constitution - the state shall provide free Education through the medium of the Irish language.

I would find the result of such a vote interesting. and accept any result.

I can't see such a vote any time soon, but if it happened I'll lay bets now it wouldn't pass.

07-10-2021 09:48PM

I was interested to note that the British Government seems to be preparing to table an Acht na Gaeilge for the North (or a Bille na Gaeilge to be more accurate) at Westminster despite the continued opposition of the DUP and the TUV. It's a welcome move, though how effective it is will depend on (a) whether they actually follow through and pass the legislation, and (b) whether the content of the legislation is up to scratch. But given the stalemate in the Executive and the Assembly it needs to be done.

07-10-2021 10:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987260#Comment_117987260

*apparently mom was a long standing thing in Cork, but it certainly wasn't in Dublin or Waterford. Now it's ubiquitous.

The American pronunciation of "mom" came from Ireland. It is an Anglicised version of the Irish words "mam", "mamó", or "mamaí". The "a" in those words is pronounced more like an English "o". Other familiar Irish words with that sound include madra, magadh, fada, and cat. The first "a" in those words will sound more like an "o" among Connacht and Munster speakers, but a wee bit more like an English "a" as you move up towards Donegal.

Wibbs · 07-10-2021 10:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990574#Comment_117990574

IIRC and I probably don't to be fair isn't Welsh the only protected minority language within the UK? I don't think Cornish or Scots Gaelic is, though like I say I'm likely wrong there.

Fishdoodle · 07-10-2021 10:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990574#Comment_117990574

The Irish language movement in the North seems to be far better organised than the south. There seems to be a greater confidence with regard to using and promoting the language.

As an aside, recently I became aware the life story of the singer Albert Fry as Béal Feirste. His music and singing was popular in Europe. I found it interesting how connecting to his roots inspired him to learn Irish in Rann na Feirste (with his school days behind him) he gained great proficiency in it. He had a tough life but brought beauty into it with his music (which reminds me of Hawaii with the nylon stringed guitar!)

https://youtu.be/O6NVMLtMwsI

Furze99 · 07-10-2021 10:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117988805#Comment_117988805

I have a novel solution......... let's have a public referendum on the matters you raise and the type of linguistic society that you propose and then we'll find out????

Fishdoodle · 07-10-2021 10:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990655#Comment_117990655

Scots Gaelic is recognised under the Good Friday Agreement - I'd imagine it is recognised.

07-10-2021 10:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989542#Comment_117989542

I gcead do @gormdubhgorm, I can't go along with the notion of an all-Irish education system. That's partly because it feeds the prejudices of the noisy Anglos, and partly because I just don't think it's the right way to do it. Mind you, as someone with an interest in History it's enjoyable to watch otherwise intelligent and rational people tell you that you mustn't deploy anything like the same tactics which led to *checks notes* them speaking the language they speak.

What I would like to see is a development of the Gaeltacht scheme commenced in Richard Bruton's time as Education Minister - but on speed. In that scheme, schools in Gaeltacht areas voluntarily signed up to teach Irish in a certain way and with certain rules (e.g. no English at all in the infant classes). In return, they got some additional resources. I'd like to see that extended and ramped up. By extended, I mean made available to both Gaeltacht and Galltacht Irish-medium schools, with an incentive to persuade other (and new) schools to operate as Gaelscoileanna. The scheme would also need to be made available in the Early Years sector. By ramped up, I mean that the level of additional resources being put in should be big enough to make it worth the schools' effort to make the changes they'd have to make, and also that additional training and learning resources would be made available to the whole school community so that the Irish competence of families would be improved along with the pupils in the school.

If a scheme like that was well enough designed and took hold so that a reasonably high percentage of schools were operating it, this would embed Gaeilge in the school system, improving both the numbers learning the language and the standard of their education. At that point, this would create the right circumstances to show that an incentivising approach works, which means the government would be in a position to remove the mandatory status of Gaeilge in the system. Those who want the mandatory status removed wouldn't object. In the case of those who would object, the government could point them in the direction of a real-life effective working alternative. Winners all round, surely?

Wibbs · 07-10-2021 10:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990651#Comment_117990651

Citations please Uly and not from an Irish langauge source if possible.

Wiki reckons this:

Mother. Mom is sporadically regionally found in the UK (e.g., in West Midlands English). Some British and Irish dialects have mam,[111] and this is often used in Northern English, Hiberno-English, and Welsh English. Scottish English may also use mam, ma, or maw. In the American region of New England, especially in the case of the Boston accent the British pronunciation of mum is often retained, while it is still spelled mom. In Canada, there are both mom and mum; Canadians often say mum and write mom.[112] In Australia and New Zealand, mum is used.[Emphasis mine]

The reason I question this is because while I have no doubt it was a regional thing in some places here it very much seems to be something attested to after the fact as an explanation for mom going from feck all in the Irish lexicon to everywhere else. I've seen "mom" creep into UK based forums and the like too and that sure as hell didn't come via Gaelige. Growing up in Dublin and indeed absorbing Irish media in general; ma, mam, the mammy was by far the most commonly heard, mum for the D4 types with notions. Gay Byrne on the Late Late "is the mammy in the audience" type of thing. Actually I remember him or another Irish presenter getting into a bit of flak over asking an African American guest that "where's the mammy" question(a very different connotation for a Black American). Didn't Brendan O'Carroll write a book/play/skit called "The Mammy"? Not "The Mommy". I also remember reading a book of Billy Connelly's where he made a joke(barely) of the American "Mom" that it was "Wow" upside down and him being of a Scots Irish background. I have a quite distinct experience from when I was about 16 of knowing a lass whose parents were Irish but she grew up in the States and came back with them in her teens and her quite naturally using the American "mom", followed by some gentle slagging for it by us. At about the level of "does she make you moooom's apple pie" type stuff. It stood out as a sound. A sound of not local. Today it wouldn't raise an eyelash, never mind a brow. Put it another way; in all the ye olde stuff of Irish people speaking on the interwebs and youtube, try and find anyone Irish saying "mom" pre 1990. And they certainly weren't saying "going to the store", unless it was Dunnes and that was in the plural. So yeah, I don't buy the "mom is a national Irish" thing, unless you're hailing from parts of West Cork or wherever.

Wibbs · 07-10-2021 10:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990752#Comment_117990752

That I can certainly see the merit of alright Uly. It's far more practicable.

Mind you, as someone with an interest in History it's enjoyable to watch otherwise intelligent and rational people tell you that you mustn't deploy anything like the same tactics which led to *checks notes* them speaking the language they speak.

I am against those tactics merely because a) they don't work unless the language promoted is already in wider cultural, intellectual and economic ascendency, b) it's bloody expensive, c) it's more political than cultural, and d) it's the same cultural imposition, but from some minority agreed "correct" one, but mostly because it's largely unworkable.

07-10-2021 10:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990655#Comment_117990655

Gàidhlig is an official language in Scotland under an Act of the Scottish Parliament. It is recognised as an indigenous language under the European minority languages charter (as ratified by the UK in the early 1990s), and promoted by an executive agency called Bòrd na Gàidhlig. The legislation gives that Board the objective of "securing the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language".

Scots (a cousin of English descended from Middle English) doesn't have the same legislative status as Gàidhlig in Scotland (AFAIK), but it is also recognised as an indigenous language under the European charter.

Manx (Gaelg) is a very close relative of both Gaeilge and Gàidhlig. It doesn't have a status in IoM law, but it is recognised in the European charter. Manx is taught as a second language in all primary and secondary schools on the IoM, and there is one all-Manx primary school (or, in Gaelg, Bunscoill Ghaelgagh)

Cornish (Kernowek) is also recognised by the European charter, though with a different status. There is some dispute as to whether the language is officially extinct or critically endangered. The language doesn't have an official status in English law, but in general the local council supports its use. Mind you, there was some local controversy a few months ago when the council refused to carry out a wedding ceremony in Cornish, because the law in England and Wales only allows wedding services in English and Welsh.

07-10-2021 10:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990735#Comment_117990735

Bhuail mé le hAlbert lá amháin breis is daichead bliain ó shin. I met Albert once over 40 years ago.

07-10-2021 10:48PM

An bhuil cad agam dul go di on leithreas? Lol

07-10-2021 11:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990828#Comment_117990828

At the risk of labouring the point, most Irish people are well aware of the devastating effects of the Famine on Ireland, not just in the 1840s but for over a century afterwards. Most Irish people would accept that this was, for want of a better expression, not a good thing. Very few Irish people I've ever met are aware that the significant majority of those who died or left Ireland in those decades were Irish speakers. Without that violent history, the Irish language would be in far better health nowadays, and would probably be living in a much healthier and respectful co-existence with English, more akin to that seen in other modern European countries. That's not the fault of the noisy Anglos, but reading the way they go on about English and Irish in Ireland you'd swear that English was adopted by us in a relaxed and friendly fashion, or gifted to us by a higher and more advanced civilisation, neither of which is the case. So while I don't agree with the education suggestion from @gormdubhgorm, at least he's not actually advocating the kind of violence that got us here.

Fishdoodle · 07-10-2021 11:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990752#Comment_117990752

Smaointe suimiúla -

..additional training and learning resources would be made available to the whole school community so that the Irish competence of families would be improved along with the pupils in the school.

Supporting parents is seriously overlooked when it comes to Irish. They are unintentionally left as outliers. Parents who lack confidence in Irish but

a. wish to use it with their children

b. wish to support their children in learning it-

should get regular support & guidence if they wish.

gormdubhgorm · 07-10-2021 11:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990736#Comment_117990736

That has already being suggested by another poster - Wibbs I think it was. It certainly would be an interesting debate I think. Given the 'status' that Irish is supposed to be afforded as per the Irish constitution.

Incidentally Wibbs said that they would not find such a debate interesting. And implied any referendum would be hammered against introducing education through Irish.

I think it would make the Irish people wake up regarding the Irish language one way or another. And it is far more serious an issues than much less unimportant issues such as the age permitted for President. Or whether the Seanad should be abolished.

It is the superficial symbolism of things like signage that annoys me. It is not really prominent from a cultural standpoint. It looks nice but still places Irish in the background. It is a look we are doing something lads type of thing.

The same thing up in NI disgusting how the Irish language is being used as political football by both sides. Oneside looking for superficial 'status' and rarely speaking it. The other having a panic attack at the sight of fada. But they love their symbolism in NI that is just the way it is up there.

Some would actually be dancing in the streets if they got such 'prominence' that the Irish language has in the ROI. But I think it is designed to by people who want to look like they are 'doing something' for the Irish language.

How is that going to get more people to speak the Irish language that is a much more practical problem. Instead of mere symbolism. What is the point of mere symbolism alone? IMO is a delusion, a cod.

In the ROI there should be much more freedom with the Irish language in terms of education changes etc. Compared to the messing that is going in NI

Even at all playschools level for a start do it through Irish. Make them Naonri's.

Basic stories, songs and words in Irish. It is not nuclear physics.

No real curriculum at that level or millions needed to be spent for kids that age.

07-10-2021 11:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990794#Comment_117990794

I wouldn't like to say that I don't have an English citation. I do have a bilingual note somewhere given to me a few years ago by someone who lectured in UCC at the time, but I can't put my hands on it, and I'm not going looking for English sources online. In any case I couldn't recall the references (if any) on the note. The lecturer claimed that "mom" appeared in New York in the latter part of the 19th century and then spread elsewhere, and that the source of that pronunciation was (or included) the many Irish speakers in the city. That said, he was a lecturer in Irish, so he probably wouldn't meet your citation requirements in any case.

I only have an Irish-language source (technically bilingual) for the Irish pronunciations of words like "mam", "mamó" and "magadh".

Eastern Irish people wouldn't have said "mom" - not in the 20th century and not in the 19th. Even in the West, the pronunication got more like "mam" the further North you went. In "the Pale" English was so well-established by the time of the Famine that "mom" wouldn't have featured, so it's hardly a surprise that Dublin has the widest "a" pronunciation of all. It would therefore be a shock if a Dublin-based or Dublin-raised person nowadays used "mom". I've a few mates (not all Irish speakers) from Galway, Cork and Kerry who use "mom" all the time, and they'd be in their 50s.

It's not clear why you're referring to "store".

08-10-2021 12:10AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991016#Comment_117991016

On your point about no real curriculum or millions needed for the naíonraí. Educational materials for the early childhood sector would be needed - but they've already been developed so there's no extra cost. The one thing that could be a barrier is that a lot of the staff would be less qualified and lower paid than in schools. That causes problems regardless of language (recruitment and retention of staff). But things are tougher for Irish-language services because often anyone with the right standard of Gaeilge will have a higher general education standard, usually accompanied by a higher qualification level, which means they're more likely to be already employed in a higher paying job. I'd say that Irish-language childcare and pre-school services find it a bit harder than their English-language counterparts to recruit and keep staff.

riclad · 08-10-2021 12:50AM

Many teachers who teach Irish have no love for it I studied irish for 5 years we just had books and story's to read it was not even slightly interesting it's well known you can't force everyone to speak a language just by putting it on a school curriculum today I say a large sign electronic display I have no idea what the ad said as it was all in Irish which I can't understand we are not the USA we can't print money 10 million spent on Irish means less money for other subjects money for nurses special needs teachers

I have maybe 2 sentences in Irish after 5 years no one ever asked us to speak Irish I went to school in the 80s

Irish was just a waste of time for me to be honest young people consume diverse media tik Tok YouTube streaming apps etc 99 per cent in English i can't remember the last trad group after Clannad who played Irish music I think young people realise I have loads of work options and whether I'm good at Irish will likely make no difference in my life prospects vocation unless I want to be a teacher I think young people are concerned about climate change the housing crisis

Irish revival s not high on their list of prioritys

I can't imagine a private company spending 1000s of euros on digital ads in Irish that might cannot be understood by 90 per cent of the public i use YouTube i have no social media accounts don't like Facebook or insta so I don't know what s going on there, there's probably x amount of Irish language speakers there and maybe x amount of polish people there as reflects the ratio of population of people who live here, maybe I'm missing out but I don't like Facebook policy's see no need to use it what annoys me is extra spending going on Irish when we need more money spent on homelessness or changing our policys to reduce climate change we have limited budgets and resources to spend

Wibbs · 08-10-2021 10:01AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990934#Comment_117990934

Oh I think we're all very well aware of the tragic history that led to Irish suffering the mortal wound it did. Violent histories are part and parcel of many if not most languages decline and indeed rise. The Romance languages in Europe an obvious one. English, Spanish and Portuguese in the Americas, English, French and Portuguese in parts of Africa and a load of native languages dying out because of them. I mean we wouldn't be speaking English if a bunch of western European lowlanders hadn't invaded England and got stabby with the local Britons. If Anglo speaking Britons hadn't pushed back against later invaders we could well be speaking a descendant of Norman French. Languages are fossil records of conquest and live or die by the sword, the purse and the book. It is what it is and here we are today.

Today. That's the thing. It happened, the language was sidelined. That it survives at all is a good thing. However supporting that survival is a tad different to retconning the language and tacking it onto modern Ireland. That's a cultural/political imposition born of healing some old hurt. We're also quite different to the other modern European countries as far as language relationships go. Their languages never declined to near the degree that Irish did. Not even close. There was strong continuity throughout. English where present is a useful add on because of its status as an international language. We already speak it natively. If we were to do a comparison that fits better we would be adding something like Spanish classes to the curriculum.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991064#Comment_117991064

"Store" is an Americanism that has gained ground in recent years, just like "mom" and you certainly hear it nowadays in Dublin. The younger the speaker, the more likely you will hear it. A friend of mine also in his fifties and born and bred in the Dublin of the "mas" and "mams" says "mom" now because his kids do. And fair enough, languages and accents change over time. It's what they do. It's the retroactive cultural explanations I don't buy. The simplest and most logical answer is that it's the massive influence of American media that has caused this change, just like "store" has started to squeeze out "shop"(and just like the English "mum" had taken root with some in the past), no Irish language reason required. That UCC lecturer's notion smells of similar cultural reasoning. No doubt we could dig up a Dutch, Italian, Swedish, German, or Jewish expert who might claim it came from their diaspora. Thet tend to fight over these things. 😁 Swedish is "mom" for example and they had a big influence in American culture. Indeed given how large the Irish American diaspora was and is the number of loan words into American English is small in comparison to loan words from Yiddish for example and what loan words there are like clock, brogue, whiskey, bog, smithereens and the like were already in British English before American and likely tagged a ride on the Mayflower. It is a fascinating subject though.

looksee · 08-10-2021 11:07AM

'The creeping prominence of the Irish language', the OP's original argument was that Irish is becoming more prominent, with hints of some kind of sinister implications.

I have been exposed to Irish for the past 50 years from a starting point of being an English only speaker, and whatever about my other abilities I do not have any facility for languages other than English. I really don't think that Irish is being pushed on the public any more than it ever was. There were always announcements in Irish on the trains, translations of government documents, an ability to do government business in Irish, an Irish news broadcast, introductions to most public speeches, including at local events, in Irish, road signs etc. I never found any of this a burden, and many a car journey had discussions about the accuracy or otherwise of place name translations - I could not put an Irish sentence together but I do know enough words to translate a good number of place names, or make a guess at what the news headlines were.

I recall from years back American tourists complaining on Trip Advisor about place names in Irish and how confusing it was. Then there was a recent contribution from a tourist who said that Irish roads were unnecessarily winding and since we depended so much on tourism it behoved us to straighten them out. Both had it pointed out to them that this was what Ireland was, and why people came here, not directly for the Irish or the windy roads, but because they contributed to the character of the country, and even superficial investigation would show how they related to the culture and the history of the place.

I do think that Irish should be a more voluntary subject in schools so that people who wanted to learn it could do so with more interest and enthusiasm than having to plod along at the level imposed by the reluctant students. I was also very frustrated when I was trying to get a bus in a Dublin suburb, I was tired and getting a bit desperate as I could not find a taxi and needed to get to the train station, but all the buses that I saw had their destinations entirely in Irish and I could not figure out which bus I needed. Not a sign of an 'an lár', and the listings on the bus stops were no more helpful.

Generally though I am not seeing any 'creeping prominence', but if there were, what harm?

The creeping prominence of the Irish language

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