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The creeping prominence of the Irish language

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Comments

  • Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Is there any other country in the world where so little of their citizens speak their ‘first’ language.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist




  • Posts: 3,842 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    We really need civics courses in this country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    You, sadly for the language, are the exception.

    If you weren't a revival wouldn't be necessary.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Pretty much every country that's been colonised at some point in their history, although is depends on your meaning of 'first'.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    We need referendums on legislation such as this which impacts significantly on ordinary citizens lives.

    This was a pet project of Eamon O'Cuiv - no one explained the full rollout of measures and asked the citizenry if we really wanted it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,924 ✭✭✭Reati


    Tell us more about how it's impacting on daily life as an ordinary citizen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I honestly don't think you'd get that much of a turnout for a referendum on something as trivial as this!

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Posts: 3,842 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    We don’t need a referendum on anything that is not unconstitutional. The Irish language act is clearly not unconstitutional because Irish is the *first* official language of the country. how the fcuk do you not know that

    if you guys want to get rid of the minor inconvenience of Irish road signs you need to change that. Start a public campaign to get enough parties in the Dail and Seanad to vote for the referendum and then get a majority to vote for removing Irish as an official language. Then the 2003 act will be unconstitutional.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 67 ✭✭ireallydontknow


    Mention was made above of post-colonialism. The claim is that a 'cultural cringe' causes some Irish people to dislike the native language in favour of the coloniser's. That might once have been true but is there really anyone today who feels inferiority about any aspect of Irish culture? Irish people are often negative about day to day running of the country, but it seems conspicuous to me that there is near universal appreciation for our culture and national character. How often is it said that we should be more like England?! It's easy to ascribe dislike of Irish to some nebulous academic concept but it doesn't hold up to closer inspection.

    Actually two of them - Zón Mac Leinn and Samhain na mBan - did not contain English, but I'm sure you'll easily jettison that particular argument on seeing it disproved. The zealotry is wanting equal prominence for a language that is spoken by a small minority. Not happy with partial recognition, they insist on Irish appearing before the English. That is the zealotry.

    The fact that you caricature the English tourist abroad, as though the Irish aren't just as bad and the Americans worse, tells me all I need to know about your instincts.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Every single piece of public information issued by the state is supposed to carry it in Irish first and then in English and with the former of at least equal prominence. That has a big impact on the delivery of public information. In a country where a very small minority will read or listen to the version as Gaeilge, it interferes substantially with the message and information.

    I've no problem at all with a requirement for information in Irish to those who want it, but it shouldn't be pushed onto all citizens without their agreement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,179 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Might not have.

    You don't have the figures either, so drop the disingenuous, misrepresenting argument tactics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,924 ✭✭✭Reati


    That's hardly the dramatic level of impact you eluded too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    It most certainly would have, if it's consequences were explained to voters in full. God help the poor tourists when they come and try to get around on public transport in say Dublin. Their guidebook says Bluebell and they're supposed to figure out that the bus timetable on the stops has An Cloigín Gorm, which by the way is pure MakeyUppy. Bluebell was and is an English name.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,963 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    the purpose of a referendum is to agree on changes to the constitution. there is no change to the constitution with the Languages Act and so no need for a referendum.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,179 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    We do have the basis for an ordinary referendum on laws which would (presumably) be constitutional but are deemed of national importance by the President on the advice of the Council of State.

    It has never happened. It very likely never will happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 67 ✭✭ireallydontknow


    I've often thought this of the warnings on cigarette packets. The stuff about 'Nil ag tabac...' greatly diminishes the effect of the warning. Here, then, is an example where the insistence on equal prominence is incontestably detrimental. If the warnings are genuinely effective, then diminishing their effectiveness actually costs lives.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,963 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    and it has no place in relation to the Languages Act.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,179 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Well, some people might consider it to be that important. I seriously doubt any President would do so on advice though!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    True and it's the self delusion expressed in said constitution that allowed this to happen. Just like the self delusion involved in articles 2 & 3 concerning our assertion of rights over the entire island of Ireland. But we saw the reality and sense in modifying that claim.

    Doesn't mean there was no need for a referendum. You can bet if this was say Switzerland, we'd have had one..



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,963 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    so you want a referendum to change the place of the Irish language in the state? and all because you have to hear some announcements in Irish? The country really is turning into a bunch of pathetic whinging children.



  • Posts: 45,738 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Great to see it still quite popular in the west. It's a beautiful language, and it's ours.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,179 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    A standalone referendum to change the constitutional position on the language would never, ever, ever pass.

    However, fully expect some change to it to be proposed in a referendum if there is ever a likelyhood of unity - to avoid having to give equal status to Ulster Scots. And that would pass.

    Provision for recognised minority status, funding, education options and so on; maybe even enhanced regional prominance rules for Gaeltachts - but without equal prominence nationally - to stop us having to have everything have Ulster Scots on it too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Fishdoodle


    I'm guessing the idea of more prominence to Irish language is getting your back up.

    However, if I'm wrong .... and 'pseudo-revivalism' (as you interpret it) is somehow irritating/offensive, what would be your more full-hearted alternative to enhance the recognition and use of Irish without getting your own or other 'peoples backs up'?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    “is there really anyone today who feels inferiority about any aspect of Irish culture?”

    yeah, the Irish language. Otherwise this thread wouldn’t exist. 🙄

    It’s the typical inferiority complex rubbish from the self hating Irishman.

    They want to impose English on everyone else and then they can’t even read a single word of Irish in an email subject line without throwing a bitchfit. “Aboriginal language,” “English is the language of finance,” “it was bet into us in school,” “whichever language people speak in the bedroom is none of my business.” Blah blah blah. Snowflakes the lot of them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,924 ✭✭✭Reati


    Nothing disingenuous about it. Cost is often tossed out in the Irish language debate and few actually know what they are talking about. You mentioned cost. I thought you might have some details.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I refer you to the guidance to public bodies - https://www.coimisineir.ie/userfiles/files/Guidebook4.pdf

    It is not just 'some announcements in Irish'. It's remit is all encompassing across the full gamut of government communications, messaging and information.

    Read it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,179 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Introducing the ILA (OLA, this isn't NI, not sure why I said ILA) brought in costs that didn't exist before. That is all I said.

    If you want to know details, FOI away. You aren't going to get them by badgering people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn



    People very often trot this sort of mantra out when talking about the Irish language. "It's very important to our culture and heritage". And it's one of those tropes that many people simply nod along to in agreement, perhaps without giving it much thought because it sounds right.

    But then ask someone why exactly is it so important? And people, even in the gaelteacht, will struggle to give you a solid concrete answer. It will usually be some wishy washy type response, which basically equates to saying "it just is okay".

    The reality is that, being connected to your heritage and culture or 'Irishness' is not really dependent on being able to speak the Irish language. 

    In fact it's somewhat insulting to the vast majority on the Island, to suggest this. Almost like the fluent speakers in the gaelteacht are the ultimate gatekeepers of what it truly means to be Irish, and the rest of us are some sort of fraudulent pretend Irish people. 

    Would you tell an Italian the same thing, because they're not fluent in latin? Of course not, that would be insulting. Well I feel the same way, when fluent Irish speakers try to brow beat people with their language.

    I feel very connected to my Irishness. I have a great interest in our history and traditions, and I don't need to speak a lick of Irish to have that deep connection to our country. It's just a myth and propaganda, spread by the Irish language zealots, who think their speaking of the language makes them special in some vital way. It doesn't!  

    The Irish language isn't even really that important for tourism. Which is probably one of the biggest arguments you could make for plastering it all over signs and buildings at great tax payer expense. What language do we use when teaching tourists about Irish history and culture? You're not going to get very far, if you speak fluent Irish to a bunch of german or french tourists. (beyond a few token phrases just to show off).

    The Irish language is like Latin to me. I'm not anti-Irish language. I have no desire to see it wiped out or anything like that. But these attempts to shove it down everyone's throat and shame people into thinking they're not really Irish if they don't value it, are pointless and arrogant. I don't resent the language, but I do slightly resent the people who are relentlessly pushing it on people.  

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭Duckworth_Luas


    Has anyone mentioned "shoved down our throats" yet!



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