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How to fix the traveller community

  • 25-09-2021 11:30pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭irish2021traveller



    To help the Irish traveller community is in my opinion failing in every aspect of the word. The spokes people in charge of the Irish traveller community have all but set them selves up for life in a massive money grab and has done nothing to actually help. My solution is this,

    Privately run property's that have one goal (#work to live better together) all properties will be not your usual halting site bay but a standard house with fencing around the perimeter of the house instead of concrete walls And a garden in the front instead of solid concrete or tarmac front this is to resemble a housing estate.

    In this program you will be Garda vetted and in support of of local Garda stations need a character reference as well. In support of the saying one bad egg can spoil the lot.

    There has been to many times that one or more travellers has set back the support for the benefit of the Irish traveller community this program can ween them out and promote good behavior pays off.

    Opinions is welcome but pull back on the hate speech this is a problem and genocide isn't the way to go. My opinion is the government has travellers exactly where the want my community looking for hand outs like over fed sheep and the settled community hating them for the special treatment so we remain apart

    Post edited by Beasty on
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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    genocide isn't the way to go

    true, that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,803 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    I don't understand why you think the government has the travelling community right where it wants them? Must be costing a fortune.

    I think it's true to say that very few traveler children go to school full time. Education is a big problem within the community. I would suggest that traveler families should be obliged to send their children to school full time or forego a percentage of any welfare payments they receive. However that will never work because you can't deny someone's welfare payment, there would be uproar.

    Honestly, the traveler community has to want to change and integrate with wider society, and for the majority of travelers I don't see a willingness to change.



  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭irish2021traveller


    I guess we can both come to an agreement that what is being done so fair isn't working. And what exactly is costing a fortune ? . And to be honest yes many travellers even many people won't admite it have to deal with micro discrimination in the options that nothing they do is good enough



  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭irish2021traveller


    And many do want to change or like my self has ideas that could and would work to integrate more travellers into a more friendly community but the way it's being said by the government and everyone else is there can be no successful help for the traveller community other then snuff it out



  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭irish2021traveller


    I mean peter Casey said to help travellers is to feed a diabetic chocolate lmao 🤣 I mean that's the problem and I get it but come on does that me all of them



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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Ellison Long Goon


    Maybe the schools should go to traveller sites rather than travellers going to schools to increase attendance ? Not ideal to segregate I know but might be worth a shot especially at Primary level to instil the habit ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,803 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    Costing a fortune for the Government in many ways. In 2010 there was €130m payed out to travellers for a variety of projects. Then you have welfare payments too.

    I don't agree that microaggression towards travellers is due to an opinion that nothing they do is good enough. Let's face facts, the community has serious problems. Many people fear travellers because there is unfortunately a cohort of travellers who are intimidating, involved in criminal activity and violence.

    Unfortunately, this reflects badly on the whole community because the "bad eggs" are the ones who are regularly making the headlines.



  • Registered Users Posts: 483 ✭✭Fred Astaire


    What is costing a fortune?

    80 percent of travellers are unemployed. So social welfare for one.

    Because 80 percent of travellers are unemployed, travellers when they chose to be housed need to be provided housing. More state money. €15 million last year.

    Travellers make up less than one percent of the population yet traveller men make up 10 percent of the overall male prison population and traveller women make up over 20 percent of the overall female prisoner population. More state money prosecuting travellers and keeping them in prison to keep the population safe from them.

    More than 1 in 4 traveller households are made up of more than 6 people. For the overall population this is 1 in 20. So travellers are having children at a rate far higher than the settled population, without being able to afford them. More money from the state.

    These children don't go through education, more than half of traveller children have left school by 15 and less than 1 percent go onto third level. So all of these travellers end up requiring the same welfare that their parents did.

    The thought of a traveller actually going to school, getting educated, getting a job is almost alien to travellers based on the above. And all that's before you get into the other absolutely disgusting, dispicable aspects of the 'culture' such as the inhumane treatment of horses.

    So yeah, travellers cost a fortune to the taxpayer. In the real world people have to work and pay for things they want. In the real world, working people don't have children unless they can afford them yet others feel comfortable having as many as they feel like as the state/taxpayer can pay.

    I wouldn't be too worried about spokespeople, if travellers actually decided to participate and contribute to society rather than taking and causing trouble at every opportunity then there wouldn't be a need for a spokesperson.



  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭irish2021traveller


    Agreed the Guys I'm my community need there day in court but the way it's all being publicly thrown around is very bad and to be honest ever where I go I am under the pressure that if a potential employer finds out I am a traveller no matter my work ethic that I might not get the job. For example my local petrol station is constantly hiring and I have stopped applying because they know I'm a traveller and won't hire me and the welfare payment percentage in the traveller community is wrong I would guess the about 30% of the traveller community is on social welfare by choice or bad luck I have yet to find a traveller that don't actually try to actively find work



  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭irish2021traveller


    So you obviously have a bone to pick with the community but in you comment about (inhumane treatment of horse) I never had a horse I'm my life so your abit off your mark saying the whole culture is bad. And as I said before the percentage of unemployment in traveller is wrong I would guess it at at least 30% unemployed and that's your government and revenue **** up if they don't know how to do there job and find the holes in the system being taken advantage of and before you go saying all traveller do is take advantage of the system well you said it your self. there not that educated so they had to learn it somewhere my guess would be from one of your lot. And this almost alien comment about education and job nonsense. I have worked strait out of school and got my leaving cert to boot there was 9 travellers in my class include myself we all did are leaving cert 4 in that group are working in the UK. You are being lied to by the government to help you hate a culture you don't even know anything about and your prison comment is strait up bullshit because what ever about the men the traveller woman wouldn't put them selves into a situation that they see jail time so there ya go.

    Do me a favor. Can you guys actually do smaller comments with maybe a question so I can actually get your point in it all instead of you throwing media and propaganda garbage at me



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,803 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    Fair play to you for taking the more difficult path, we need more travellers like you. There are too many who take the "easy" option of social welfare or crime. Sorry but that's the truth.

    It is terrible that you find it difficult to get work because you're a traveller, but it's your own peers you need to blame for that attitude existing. Too many people have had a bad experience with members of the travelling community. My own father owned a country pub years ago. Serving travellers was a no no because it invariably led to trouble. He served a traveller man who was on his own one day who swore he wouldn't cause trouble and was only having one. Within 15 minutes a large group of travellers had taken over the pub. They were all served a couple of drinks before being asked to finish up because things were getting rowdy. After their last drink, they left but not before ripping all the urinals and sinks off the walls in the men's toilets.

    I don't envy your position, trying to get an honest job and participate in society but being turned away because of your background. Keep at it though, you'll meet an employer who sees you for the hard worker you are eventually. Lead by example and hopefully more members of the travelling community will change and more members of the settled community will hold less prejudice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭irish2021traveller


    And I don't agree with the hand outs to my community let them earn it or be put on a higher loan based system that can help the community as a whole not the individual and as I said Garda vet them and have personal reference wouldn't hurt to ween out the bad help the good actually be good not just as bad as the guy beside him



  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭irish2021traveller


    I feel very bad for your father and to be fair I would have told the all hit the road or pay a door deposit before entering. But to cover yourself get a traveller young lad that you maybe hire out of school and give him the job to let them know about the deposit situation that way you don't deal with lawsuits and maybe stick him behind the bar so when. He refuses to serve them it's not discrimination it's just one traveller refusing to serve another



  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭irish2021traveller


    This in my experience is useful in the security district and has been used first had by my self and stopped dead in it's track when the trouble makers come out to play and start with the racist card. It doesn't work with me 🙂



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    This thread is misconceived.

    Other citizens from diverse backgrounds successfully avail of the common supports made available by the Nation to them and thrive.

    This thread starts out from the position that the Nation is in some way failing Travellers and that hypothesis is completely wrong. Travellers are failing themselves. Travellers are presenting themselves as victims.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    The traveller community don’t think they need “fixing” so not sure why anyone thinks they should try to.

    In reality the number are small in ireland, maybe 0.01 of the entire population but they get a huge amount of press.

    In terms of crime etc we have a bigger issue in ireland and the lack of of Gardai etc, so maybe instead of trying to “fix” a small segment of the population at the cost of millions we invest that money into stopping crime



  • Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭BobHopeless


    Pointing out how travellers act isn't hate speech. Maybe we could start with that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    The total is under 40,000. Think it was 32,000 in the last census.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    And 5m people in ireland, so 0.4 of the population? Based on maths in my head so probably wrong :-)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The biggest mistake ever by a Taoiseach was to stand up in the dail and grant them special status.withdraw that and when they want to act as normal people then bring it in.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Fix the welfare system and it solves both.

    Stop incentivising people for having kids by paying them e68 to e75 for each child per week... and stop tying all of this into social housing.

    But we wont... and in twenty years the problem is x4 times bigger as today's kids have 5 kids each by then and the problem snowballs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,083 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    I know a number of traveller families where all the kids go to school.

    Fwiw.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭touts


    Best way to solve the traveller problem is to focus on the children and their future.

    Make it mandatory that they must attend school. Assign a school place and fine the parents heavily for every day of school missed.

    Pay children's allowance in vouchers that can only be spent on things like food and children's clothes etc. That's for everyone not just travellers.

    To remove the criminal influence from their lives we must reform the criminal justice system. At the moment lawyers have a financial interest in keeping repeat criminals in the community. Implement a 3 strike rule. After three convictions you get the maximum sentence for the crime without discretion by the judge and without early release. That will benefit not only traveller children but children across the country who will have the single most negative influence in their lives removed.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    All your points should be in practice across the board, regardless of age, gender, race or any other tag.

    One other family support which should be introduced, is a tax credit for every child. That would be a big help to working parents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The one defense I would make of travellers is that the people who proport to stand up for them ( beit Pavee Point ,the media, NGO sector) are actually doing travellers a huge disservice

    All of the above constantly drill home the message that every problem that bedevils the traveller community is entirely down to naked prejudice on the part of the rest of society.


    That in itself sets up division and strips travellers of any power to improve their station, travellers have been designated as inherent powerless victims and worse still , many of the charlatans who created this narrative, would be out of a job were it to change


    Travellers must do better but first the public figures who dominate discourse surrounding this issue must stop treating travellers like agency free children who are good for nothing but a trendy protected species project



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    I would be interested to hear your ideas. Clearly what's being done now isn't working



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,964 ✭✭✭Andrea B.


    I am going out on a limb, but historically minorities and or emigrant groups have for the most part tried to create a better more prosperous potential for their children by being able to provide them with an education and skill.

    That is not happening with the traveller community. The ones that have embraced self improvement (defined as being relative compared to a life of welfare by choice), do not appear to have been motivated or encouraged by family.

    Why would you push your children towards a "better life", whereby they would have to work to pay for medical, housing etc?

    My parents were of the barefoot to school generation (born 1921). They wanted better for us.

    Vicious circle not unique to travellers, where working the welfare system gives a comfortable lifestyle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    I don't have any answers but I agree getting traveller children to commit to education through all levels is vital.

    Good to see a thread here trying to take a pragmatic approach.

    We all know what the problems are.

    For me proper application of the justice system and education are the main points that need addressed. The events in Tuam were shocking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,495 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    How to fix them? Stop enabling them.

    Forcibly ensure that they are held to the same laws, rules and regulations as the rest of us, in the long run that will result in a community that actually integrates with the rest of society.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭BobHopeless


    As long as there is no alternative to FG/FF we are stuck in that cycle for years to come. Only last week i read they are increasing social welfare in a time when employers are crying out for workers. Unfortunately many Irish people are happy with the status quo so the bottom line is nothing will change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    realistically and from long experience it isn't the few bad apples that are spoiling the reputation for the traveler community ,its the vast majority that are doing that.


    until an substantive amount of travellers decide they want to be a part of normal society then they will always be a problem for the rest of us.

    if you want t rush that process then apply the same standards to them as everyone else .... ie funding cuts and jail for misbehavior.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    You can't attend school, pay tax or receive welfare unless you have a contact address.

    Should be the same rules for everyone.

    Its cool if you don't want to integrate but then you should not have any access to settled people benefits IMO.

    Maybe set up a system like the first nations in the states. Own rules in pockets of the country. Reserves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,595 ✭✭✭Damien360


    Dole increasing while taxes for those paying taxes is also increasing. The dole should be a temporary crutch to support you if you legitimately loose your job. Pay much higher for a temporary period of a few months for those who have paid a minimum number of weeks of tax (let’s say 5 years) while employed. All others who have not worked should never be better off than those on minimum wage and that dole needs cutting back. Include all the other benefits in calculations.

    Its far from just a traveller problem. But no government (current FF/FG, future SF) will dare touch the dole or they will be torn apart.

    I would still link increased dole to number of kids but to a max of 2 (the average number of kids per family in the country). The state should not fund any more. Same for working people.

    One thing sticks out. We have had a huge influx of foreign nationals of every colour and creed and culture in the last 20 years. Many (not all) of their kids have succeeded where their parents had not. Education worked for these kids. Plenty of working Chinese, Polish, Nigerian, Malaysian people all educated here. If racism was central to the issue, then I would have thought these would be the first to suffer. Your education breaks down so many employment barriers as it can’t be argued with.

    My solution: If we want to fix social issues throughout the state, then education has to be the core fix.

    The current system does not suit everyone (rote learning) so tailor it to allow apprenticeship to even younger people while in school of sorts to get a minimum grade of education. It means an overhaul of the education system, which will be unpalatable to many.

    The Tec’s were supposed to do this (prepare for apprenticeship) but despite many being Deis schools with good funding, don’t achieve this as they are judged on their grades like all other schools. Your local wannabe tradesman (tradeswoman is genuine missed opportunity) should be knocking at the door to get in here if done correctly. A genuine stepping stone towards owning your own business as a tradesman. Imagine a state that can build houses without having to import half of another country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭irish2021traveller


    We'll see my personal experience has to contradict you as there is bad apples that I know would represent the worst of are community and that is a fact look on YouTube but see that in a sense has to be put into understanding that theses guys that are the undesirables are also the would be athletes of are culture and that starts in the form of bare knuckle boxing.I will start a forum on it to cover it more but. But that is why there is such a big pull on the Irish traditional was if working and I agree with being part of normal society but do that also mean to give up and sacrifice are beliefs and traditions just to be like everyone else because that is just a shame and a waste of a heritage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭irish2021traveller


    Funding cuts let's be honest the unemployment rate on travellers is bullshit I would say it's at 30% not 80 as there trying to say so it wouldn't matter to most of them and that lands on revenue to pull there socks up and figure out who is lieing. And I agree for serious misbehaviour I would say that needs to be tuned up a notch and a more serious treatment to be done but that needs to be universal not a with hunt for just travellers that wouldn't end well for both parties involved



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  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭irish2021traveller


    See they do go by the same laws because believe me travellers would be a bigger problem if this wasn't the case and how have they been enable please tell in this day and age that all a guy to peter Casey has To do is start talking **** about travellers days before the election and the whole nation rallys behind him. And then you want travellers to behave. Please you can only wipe a dog so much before it bites. Travellers are not welcome in normal society and that's a straight fact



  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭irish2021traveller


    Tuam agreed was very bad but that's the problem and In lines of the justice system not many know this but the guards actually gave those guys a peace deal and that means disperse and no charges will be brought at that current place



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Peter Casey got 23% of the first preference votes. That is hardly the whole nation to be fair.

    Interesting thread though



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Jane98


    IMO the overly generous welfare system is preventing many people, not just travellers from wanting to better themselves. Why can't we ask unemployed people which are more than a year unemployed to contribute to their community by doing one day volunteering a week. If they don't want to do it simply half their benefits.

    I am a teacher, teaching 10 years in a school in a disadvantaged area. A sizeable minority of the students I teach have no aspiration to work, instead aim for a life on social welfare as this is what they see their family doing. If I ask these students whats the benefit in working they only ever see money, they never can see that it might be good for their self esteem and mental health and they only ever see themselves earning minimum wage. They never see that as a starting point of their working career. I was so sickened to hear of plans in the budget to increase welfare and increase taxes for the working. Some of my students families seem to have a lot more disposable cash than many working families and this is VERY wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    Ok first off as I mentioned I don't think the traveller community need "fixing".

    The Peter Casey episode got blown out of all proportion by RTE because they wanted to get rid of him from the President race, same as they done on the previous when the lad from Cavan was ahead in the polls and they made up a story to get rid of him, then when the election was over they admitted it was wrong.

    Casey got 23% of the vote because like the general election to follow soon after people where sick of the usual tripe from politicians. Casey got just over 300k votes. The entire election had about 1.4m votes. So about 1/5 of the population voted. So you cannot say the nation rallied behind him



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  • Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭BobHopeless


    As long as people keep voting for FG and FF things will never change. I always laugh when i hear middle and upper class people crow about voting for FG or life long FG'ers yet then sit back and complain about situations like you have outlined above. FG and FF are responsible for all of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,806 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Casey quite possible would have won the election if Higgins hadn't been the most popular public figure in Ireland. That's a worry, he was coming out with unashamed racist statements, and it propelled him from the bottom of the race to second place.

    There is a massive problem with Travellers, especially in the west of Ireland, like it or not that's the truth. Travellers are hugely over represented in court, go to any district court sitting and you'll see it. Of course the involvement by many in crime leads to fear among the wider community and it makes it very hard for decent Travellers to integrate.

    It does happen that Travellers become part of communities, but it is rare. The answer is extremely difficult to find, I suspect education is the way, and a very targeted attempt to increase participation among the community.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,478 ✭✭✭J.O. Farmer


    A lot of people voted for Casey because he seemed to tell the truth even if it wasn't politically correct didn't back down on it.

    How many people would genuinely welcome a halting site next door. I bet a lot lower percentage than was seemingly represented by the presidential candidates.

    It wasn't particularly anything to do with travellers but it had more to do with the credibility of other candidates which was damaged when they all said they'd be happy with a halting site next door.

    Michael D said it too but most people had made up their mind to vote for him before the campaign. I'm pretty sure short of Michael D turning up for the debates in a Nazi uniform he would have won.



  • Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭BobHopeless


    Please point out in detail one incident of racism from Casey.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Jane98


    Many people did not vote for FG or FF in the last election but they still managed to get into government because the 3 current parties in government came together to keep SF (who had the highest % of votes) out. The problem really is that none of the parties would dare try suggesting welfare rates are too high as they see that as a means to losing votes. Joan Burton suggested some years ago that people were choosing social welfare as a lifestyle choice and she was attacked and eventually lost her seat.

    If someone actually sat down and worked out the total costs of welfare to an average family it wold probably be eye watering. Also I believe there is alot of fraud within the system that needs to be weeded out.

    https://www.joe.ie/uncategorized/joan-burton-pladges-to-stop-social-welfare-becoming-a-lifestyle-choice-25940




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    If you don't mind me asking, what do you think was done differently in your school/community/area that helped/encouraged you and the others to stay in school and get your Leaving Cert? Was it particularly good teachers/school, or family encouragement/expectations or something else? Was it something that could be easily used to help other kids complete secondary education?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,452 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    As people have said Education is the key to helping therefore it should be tied into children's allowances etc.

    Simply put..if you want to get children's allowance (at school age obviously) at this point tie it into school attendance for every child. (and not just traveler children)

    Implement a biometric system where each child scans in the morning and scans out in the evening. Yes I know the privacy advocates will be up in arms about it but we need a system we can rely on to cut out fraud and ensure that children get signed in and not immediately go back out.

    At present the kids have no chance whatsoever of a future bar the current traveller culture one and its extremely rare that so many break free of it so kudos to the Op for taking the step.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    This is not just an issue with travellers. People seem to be ignoring huge parts of Ireland have kids not going to school and they are not travellers. All children across Ireland should have the same requirements.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,268 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Can I ask you a fairly personal question irish2021traveller? What level of education did you manage to achieve yourself? I mean no disrespect but the grammar and spelling in your posts would make me think you probably never got beyond a Junior Cert?

    I'd suggest that not only should all children (traveller or settled) be educated to Leaving Certificate as a minimum (the LCVP catering for the non-academic amongst us), one of the greatest services we as a society could provide to the traveller community would be further investment in Adult education. I'm sure there must be many traveller men and women who regret being pulled out of education by their parents in their early teens. "No more school" sounds like a great thing to a 14 year old, once he/she's a grown adult, however, it holds them back in many ways and I'd hazard a guess there are many older travellers who wish they'd stuck with it.

    A total reform of our welfare system is needed: Job Seekers should be able to claim a percentage of their most recent salary for a limited duration (say 6 months at 60 or 70% of your last salary - if the salary was high, the person will have paid high amounts of PRSI that would cover this), with levels for those who haven't worked or who haven't been able to find employment again being based on the effort they've put into making themselves employable: a degree, trade or other third-level qualification qualifying you for the maximum amount, a leaving certificate the second highest, a junior cert an amount below that and no junior cert or equivalent education the lowest payment level.

    Children's allowance I'd scrap entirely as it costs a fortune to administer and could easily be replaced with a tax credit for those in employment or an increase in the social welfare allowances for children of the unemployed. Those credits/additional allowances should be dependent on the child's attendance at school.

    I reckon not only would these two measures encourage more travellers to keep their children in school and give them a far better chance at making a good life for themselves, it'd have the same influence on those in the settled community who are making themselves unemployable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,452 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    Absolutely. There's a huge swathe of children missing school and no repercussions for it.

    But our education system also needs a massive kick up the arse. Its in no fit purpose and badly needs a rehaul.

    I work in IT within the automation side of it and everything is being automated so fast. It's not being done to cut jobs but to get rid of the manual and repetitive day to day stuff and have staff work on other more important stuff.

    Look at autonomous driving..in another 10-20 years HGV drivers or taxies etc will not exist etc and same for low paying jobs etc.

    What chance will people missing school now have in the future? Practically zero and probably a life of crime to make ends meet.

    A lot of this could be avoided but the Government won't make the hard calls for it.



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