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Deathloop

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,625 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I went for the same ending without knowing there were different endings. I was prepared to have it fail and have to start the loop again (which wasn't an issue seeing as how easy it is by the end). Reading the other endings, I'm happy with the one I chose. Just felt like the right thing to do.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 30,593 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Yeah…

    Killing Juliana felt sort of odd with the whole daughter angle!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭The Phantom Pain


    Anyone discovered the secret character yet? 👀



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,326 ✭✭✭✭Zero-Cool


    Like Dishonored, what i recognise as a great game just isn't hooking me. This has a great story, characters, time loop mechanic, action and even though I'm really enjoying my playtime with it and unraveling new leads, i just find myself wanting to play other games. Sometimes I'll go to play this and think nah. I wish i was into it more but i think I'll sell it while i can still get good cash for Alan Wake / Far Cry 6.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭The Phantom Pain


    Like I said, this game is not for everyone and will be divisive. I think the 10/10 reviews is peaking the curiosity of those who wouldn't normally buy a game like this only to find out it's not for them. Stick to your guns - if the marketing didn't do it for you then playing the game probably won't.


    On an unrelated note, Boyfriend's Mouthpiece released one of their stupid-ass videos in which they bastardise Dinga Bakaba's name because how dare he have a non-white foreign name, how dare he?! Oh, and his review, much like most of his reviews, just feesl like he cobbled together a lot of bandwagon complaints in order to score brownie points with his viewers. Dinga is such a classy guy though that he's taken it well and thanked those for sticking up for him. (On a totally related note Dinga is pretty handsome as well imo hehe). 



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,574 ✭✭✭Cordell


    I had to look it up - is this what passes for gaming journalism these days? Well, in that case I'm glad I stopped watching any of them, the last one I followed was Totalbiscuit.

    But they're not too wrong either, this is not a 10/10 game. It is a very solid 8 and probably GOTY 2021 but that's only because this particular year wasn't too good.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 53,284 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Indie gaming has been amazing this year. So far no triple A game this year should be going away with any GotY awards when indie games have far eclipsed them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,625 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I don't think anyone could call Girlfriend Reviews "journalism". As much I enjoy some of their videos, they're just a bit of fluff.

    I don't think I could call Deathloop GOTY either. It's a quality game, extremely well designed and a lot of fun to play, but I also think it can be a bit forgettable. It's not too challenging, enemy AI is disastrous, menu UI can be annoying and as I said before, I think they missed a real trick in not having a few different paths to breaking the loop.

    None of those are major issues, but they do just knock the game down a little



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 30,593 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    *Lots* of great smaller games, but Monster Hunter Rise would be vying for ‘GOTY’ status for me honestly.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 53,284 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,574 ✭✭✭Cordell


    That was my point exactly - if it wins any GOTY award it will be for lack of competition, and not because it's such a great game. But as far as AAA 2021 games go, it's the best so far.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 30,593 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Hmm, by the same standard I wouldn’t really class Deathloop as AAA. It’s clearly not a FIFA or Call of Duty or even a Sony first-party ‘premium’ title. By design I’d say it’s actually a smaller and more focused game than Arkane has done before. That said, I do think the game suffers from not being entirely indie as well, in order to please a larger audience - so it has to make compromises in terms of trusting the player where the likes of Outer Wilds were much braver.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭recyclops


    thought the GF review was fairly on point tbf, as stated above they are a bit of fluff and nothing really to be worrying about but they do tend to raise good points in their videos.


    ive played a few hours and like someone else stated above its just doesnt pull you back in which is odd because its not a bad game at all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭The Phantom Pain


    Nobody's "worried" about that trash channel. A lot of their peers are seeing them in a new light since the ignorant bastardising of Dinga's name. They are completely inauthentic and cringe-worthy. The only YouTuber with less integrity would be YongYea.  Anyway, Deathloop will likely win GOTY despite its (predictable) haters. It has been very successful and I'm glad it's getting love from the outlets that actually matter. One of the things that has been consistently praised about it is the way it undoes bad player habits by forcing you to try different approaches via having the opportunity to revisit levels over and over. Whereas Prey and Dishonoured had a tendency to guilt you into playing a certain way through its karma system/ship behaviour even if technically you could play it how you wanted.


    What you class it as is irrelevant lol. It's an AAA game. Sorry. I wouldn't say it's catering to a larger audience either, evident by the undercurrent of negativity before the game was even released. The risks that Bethesda allowed Arkane to take is crazy.  I actually can't believe it got funded tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,600 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    Hope I still have GamePass when this eventually gets back to MS and Xbox.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    this reminds me a bit of bioshock 2, use guns and powers or perks ,most enemy ai is bad until you face the other main character.1960s type buildings and design.You can listen to audio logs to understand the story and characters .i think the level designs and graphics are fantastic ,makes a change from the standard military shooter set in 2021 .i,d love a no one lives forever remaster .theres 4 maps played at different times of the day,but the maps are very complex with lots of routes to travel through the level. i think the script is very clever and witty with a wide range of characters with different personalitys i think its one of the best designed games i have seen, with builds you can approach from various angles, stand on the roof top,s ,go in through a window , and it has beautiful detailed graphics, i think its clever how all the enemys have an icon

    over them showing what weapon they are using .this would make a great film as the story is very complex and has a wide range of characters to defeat .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭brady12


    i'm slowly making my way through this . iv no idea how they gave it 10s . its a very good game but no way in hell a 10 . not even sure is it better then dishonored 1 or 2?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭SomeSayKos


    I finished this at the weekend and am currently on my second playthrough. I loved it to be honest. I wouldn't give it a 10 but I'd definitely give it a 9 if I was rating it. The setting is fantastic, the characters are interesting and I found the gameplay to be always fun. I liked the structure of it as well. It felt like a game I could play in relatively short bursts which kind of suits my playing habits at the moment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    I would give it an 8 or 9 out of 10, it's got replay value, as you can use a combo of different weapons and powers each loop if you want . It's nice to see an Aa game with 2 main characters who are black instead of the usual standard white dude it uses tricks from other games like the splinter cell hints on a wall writing i think Cod4 or metal gear 3 would be examples of 10,rated games i think it would be great if they could release extra maps as dlc with more characters to attack and a higher level of enemy ai to make going thru levels more challenging eg enemy's with extra powers or weapons that do, nt just stand around or run at you instead of using cover or using grenades I think the levels are very well designed with options to travel high low or across the roof tops



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭The Phantom Pain


    Really great video from Sony Santa Monica dev Alanah Pearce on the enemy A.I. She was the first person to note the "bad" A.I. in the Deathloop previews before it became an easy, trendy way for people who don't understand game design to look smart:

    Somebody in the comments argued that just because it's intentional doesn't mean it's the right choice to which she responded that it being the right choice would depend on personal preference, which is true. I predicted in my first impressions that people will want difficulty settings because of the enemy A.I. and I was right, but I hope Arkane stick to their guns and stay true to their vision. On that note, I love Alanah's work in general. I find her videos so informative and, while I don't always agree with her, she always at least gives a well researched and balanced take. 



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,574 ✭✭✭Cordell


    She's right from the game design point of view but since she got technical and she's also a industry pro, I'd wish that she would clarify better that there's no AI in games, only state machines - she kind of does explain it, but not quite clear enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭The Phantom Pain


    The purpose of her video was not to prove how knowledgeable she is in her field to the pedantic though. It was to provide a simple breakdown for the uninformed as to why saying the A.I. is "bad" in this case is reductive. It's a totally fair and valid take to not like the decision Arkane has made and to wish it was more punishing, but to act as if the A.I. behaviour is this way by accident  - especially when Arkane has proven they can do punishing A.I. in their previous games - is an instant giveaway that the person isn't as knowledgeable on game design as they're making out. I'm still learning a lot about the science of game design to this day as I was never interested as a consumer. So I find Alanah's video really helpful. She's not patronising or trying to show off; she really does want to help people understand which is refreshingly generous.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 53,284 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    The lore explanation for the bad AI is quite clearly a band aid for poor design. It's kind of an insult that arkane expect us to be dumb dumbs and accept it. Saying that, red dead 2 is still highly regarded by some 🤪



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭The Phantom Pain


    Alanah's video is not about the lore or the characterisation of the eternalists at all and I don't recall Arkane ever using that to explain away the A.I. behaviour...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,625 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I don't dispute the general points she made, but I think they brought the enemy AI down too low. I think especially given the small maps (and only 4 maps at that), the player's familiarity with that will kick in after a few loops, meaning at that point the enemy AI as it is becomes trivial. Better enemy AI would have prolonged the challenge without it being too difficult for new players to learn the loops.

    There are plenty of tools and powers at the player's disposal to help deal with enemies. They didn't need to be so dumbed down to that extent.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 53,284 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    I never said she did in the video. But as I said it's obvious Arkane are using it as an excuse for their bad AI coding. Arkane aren't going to come out and say I'm right but 'the AI isn't bad it's actually because of story' is lame whatever way you look at it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,574 ✭✭✭Cordell


    I agree with her, Arkane have proper "AI" implementations that they used before, so what we're seeing here are actual design decisions. They wanted to be easy to leave conflict and mind the important objective rather than managing both. I personally find it frustrating to do both looking for clues or trying to solve a puzzle while also keeping an eye for some random NPC that finally caught up with me.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 53,284 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Well I don't. There's ways of making AI dumb but also fun and engaging without being annoying or noticably lacking. The Thief games on PC prove that and Arkane know this considering the amount of Thief and Looking Glass alumni working with the company. No excuses.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭The Phantom Pain


    True, the familiarity with the maps would negate the need for this, however one of the key things she mentioned is that Arkane would have tested the A.I. difficulty extensively over loops and that they probably found that increasing their awareness and aggressiveness beyond the final version wasn't right for the game. It would be interesting to see a difficulty option added for the A.I. in a future patch to observe how players get along with it. I would definitely give it a go but I have a feeling it will be one of those, 'careful what you wish for?' scenarios for many, especially new players/those who haven't yet played it enough to learn the maps.

    Some questions:

    1. Have you played Deathloop?
    2. I understand some fans have used the lore as an explanation for the A.I. behaviour on social media, but could you please point to some examples where Arkane/Dinga have? I personally haven't seen that.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 53,284 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    1. Played a little of it. Not bought it yet. Watched a friend play a good bit. The bad AI isn't game ruining but it does stand out.
    2. https://www.thegamer.com/deathloop-ai-sensitivity-chase/ Pretty much explains it there. While the author is an apologist, I'm certainly not.

    It feels more like a late/early 90's/2000's PC FPS AI. And again Thief showed how it could be handled well and they've most of the team that made the Thief games at the studio. Not the first time lore has been used to paper over dodgy coding/limitations, if you read the manual of Super Mario Bros there's an excuse for turtle shells bouncing off off screen scenery but not killing off screen enemies.



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