Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

Jim2007 · 23-09-2021 11:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927453#Comment_117927453

And after all that… you still have not answered how in a practical way the teacher can exclude your child from religious activities while at the same time ensure they are not singled. It will be obvious to every single child in the class that there is something different about your child if they are not doing the same as everyone else!

It is over forty years a go since I attend a school run by the Presentation Sisters, which was unusual in itself because they accepted boys! But the sister in charge was ahead of her time and a very formidable woman who shot down every single argument put up against having boys in the school, mixed classes, running PE classes for boys etc… Even at one stage declaring that since she was from Kerry she was sure she could train a boys football team!

So one September we were surprised to find five new pupils in our class, even more surprising was the religious class would be the last half hour before lunch and that unfortunately these kids would not be able to participate as they needed to go home for lunch…. It probably took about two weeks for the reverend mother (RM) to realize her cunning plan was falling apart!

It turned that two the kids were LDS and the other three were JW. It is just not possible to behave differently and expect it will not be noticed by the other kids. The RM then went in the opposite direction and decide that we should all learn about the major world religions, which caused waves in rural Ireland back then…

Here in Switzerland the state schools are independent and religious education is done outside of the schools. And it works up to a point, but with people being predominantly Christian of course it comes true - Christmas holidays, Easter Holidays etc… and some times worse - clicks/gangs develop based on which Sunday schools the kids go to.

At this point from what I have experienced I don’t see your expectations as realistic.

Purple Mountain · 24-09-2021 12:30AM

OP, while I respect your beliefs and wishes for your daughter, I have to ask: if you are so determined that she has nothing to do with the "cult" of religion/Jesus etc, do ye celebrate Christmas? The clue is in the word "Christ"mas. Because if you really want to erase all trace of Christianity from your and her life then Christmas should be just be called winter break and ignored as a celebration.

Similar with Easter. Does she eat pancakes on Pancake Tuesday, which is symbolic of gluttony before the 40 days of fasting or does she eat Easter eggs, which symbolises a reward after the 40 days of fasting?

I'm not trying to pick a row with you but am just pointing out that if you are steadfast on eradicating any link to Christianity, then have you examined such issues?

24-09-2021 12:47AM

The OP is just trying to wind people up. 2/10

Treppen · 24-09-2021 07:27AM

I wonder what would God think of this thread.

orecir · 24-09-2021 07:41AM

I would be shocked if the op even has children.

What a sad little life Jane.

olestoepoke · 24-09-2021 07:56AM

I let my kids be, let them take part, but I constantly remind them that it's all nonsense and take it with a pinch of salt. I tell them that religion is ok to look at in a historical sense and the impact it has had on society. There are many religions with separate gods and not one has any proof of their gods existence. My oldest is now getting ready for secondary school and it seems to have worked well.

FishOnABike · 24-09-2021 10:36AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931411#Comment_117931411

Shrove Tuesday is the only one of the festive days you mention that I'm not aware of as being a pre-christian festival co-opted by Christianity.

RobbieTheRobber · 24-09-2021 10:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931411#Comment_117931411

Give over where in the bible can I find the part about Santa Claus a magic bearded man with flying reindeer who comes down the chimney?

RobbieTheRobber · 24-09-2021 10:43AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931628#Comment_117931628

Do imaginary beings have thoughts.

I wonder what Barney the dinosaur would think!

FishOnABike · 24-09-2021 10:43AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932218#Comment_117932218

Correction, they are all pre-christian festivals, co-opted by Christianity. A quick search turned this up :

As with most European Christian traditions, Shrove Tuesday, or Pancake Day, started out as a Pagan celebration.

Before the Christian era, the Slavs believed that the change of seasons was a struggle between Jarilo, the god of vegetation, fertility and springtime, and the evil spirits of cold and darkness, and that they had to help Jarilo in his worthy efforts. The whole celebration of the arrival of spring lasted a week and a large part of this was making and eating pancakes. The hot, round pancakes symbolised the sun and the Slavs believed that by eating pancakes, they got the power, light and warmth of the sun.

https://www.britain-magazine.com/events/shrove-tuesday-all-you-need-to-know/

Cyrus · 24-09-2021 10:58AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931668#Comment_117931668

as rickey gervais once said i only believe in one less god than you

rock22 · 24-09-2021 11:25AM

Karlitob, I too am an agnostic and nave been through it all.

But I suspect you are might be a member of the Evangelical Atheist church

Purple Mountain · 24-09-2021 12:43PM

I get that they are all originally pagan celebrations but they were hijacked by Christanity.

So for the OP to be truly 100% atheist, s/he won't be calling it Christmas, just treating it as a winter school break with no bells and whistles.

The OP hasn't come back yet to clarify the age of the child so I suspect we're wasting our time here.

Princess Calla · 24-09-2021 01:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932933#Comment_117932933

They said in their OP that child was in senior infants (average age 5/6) then in follow up reply they said child was 4 and couldn't read or write. Which is why I called bullsh*t on the thread.

I suspect that the OP expected a more robust religious debate which is why he had articles at the ready.

Instead he got "yeah sure it is what it is" cos the stark reality is if parents intend to bring up children in a certain way they have already settled in an area that affords that option.

Other than that most parents pick a school based on reputation and how close the school is, or else make the conscious decision that they will make a long school run to get what they want.

o1s1n · 24-09-2021 01:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931411#Comment_117931411

Both celebrations, along with Halloween/All souls day, are a lot older than their current Christian iterations and people have been celebrating at that time of the year for thousands of years. Do you really think bringing a conifer tree into your house or buying chocolate eggs for your kids have anything to do with Jesus?

Even things like hot cross buns and celebrating by eating pancakes have pre-Christian origins.

Christianity amalgamated ancient pagan traditions into their own calendar to aid with converting the pagan locals at the time. It was a stroke of genius, lots of the older traditions have now been lost and rebranded with Christian ones slapped on instead. you can even see it in the Irish language.

I don't see anything wrong with non religious kids celebrating a big fat jolly man coming down their chimney to hide presents under a conifer tree on the Winter Solstice. Jesus doesn't need to come near the equation.

o1s1n · 24-09-2021 01:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932933#Comment_117932933

The OP can call it whatever they want.

That's the great thing about being an atheist that a lot of folks don't seem to get, you don't have to prescribe to a set menu of belief - you can pick and chose to celebrate whatever you want. Just because you don't believe it/think it's nonsense doesn't meant you can't still have fun with it and enjoy the season.

Teacher2020 · 24-09-2021 01:32PM

As a teacher, I've had quite a few parents request that their child does not do religion.

I've explained to parents that I do religion for 30 minutes every day. I'm happy to do that at the start/end of the day so that they can drop them off 30 minutes late or pick them up 30 minutes early.

If parents aren't willing to do that, then I give the child an alternative activity but I will never tell a child that they cannot participate if they express that they want to.

Choochtown · 24-09-2021 01:52PM

Like the OP we had no choice where to send our children. Local catholic school with neighbours or many miles away with strangers.

We chose local and just let things pan out. Of course there was far too time wasted on religion but we adopted a very "laissez-faire" attitude to things.

Eventually when each of our children hit about 9 or 10 years old, the inevitable question came: "why don't we go to mass like John's family?"

The answer from me was swift and honest: "I don't believe in god"

That was processed for a while and then from each child in their own time (generally a few months) came ... "I don't believe in god either"

Now that my children are young adults I have spoken to them about this approach and they tell me that they are pleased that I never told them to believe or not to believe.

They are atheists and that is what they have chosen.

Cyrus · 24-09-2021 02:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933282#Comment_117933282

glad it all worked out, but you did have a choice, you just chose the more convenient one.

Purple Mountain · 24-09-2021 03:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933282#Comment_117933282

Can I ask if they made communion/confirmation? I'm just curious because where I live I know a lot of people don't attend Mass but the children made the sacraments. I'd be in the bracket myself.

Treppen · 24-09-2021 07:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933191#Comment_117933191

".... but I will never tell a child that they cannot participate if they express that they want to. ..."

Whatever happened to Parents being the primary educators??

If the parents had opted the child out of the RSE module would you still let the child join in if they wanted?

RealJohn · 24-09-2021 08:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934722#Comment_117934722

Parents are the primary educators. That doesn’t mean they run a teacher’s classroom.

If the child expresses a wish to take part when the parents have asked that not be included, the correct course of action is probably to inform the parent, and ask that they either talk the child out of it, or allow it. It isn’t reasonable to expect a teacher to refuse to allow a child to participate in something the rest of their classmates are participating in, short of hat thing being dangerous or illegal (and contrary to what some people will no doubt claim, there’s little danger in school religion classes, whether you believe in God or not).

Flinty997 · 24-09-2021 08:43PM

You see a lot of parents moving area to get into the catchment to get into what they feel is a good school. People move countries to get better jobs, and access to better education. I certainly moved to a locationbto have access to things like this and transport options etc.

I'm not sure why that's different for religion. Why is not wanting a religious education any different from the above.

I don't think religion should be in schools and I recognize people are trying to change the system. But I don't really understand why you make choices that paint you into a corner when it comes to choosing a school.

I think it would be very hard to give advice about schools and teachers when they all very different. You'd need to get advice specific to the teachers and schools you are going to.

byhookorbycrook · 24-09-2021 09:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927962#Comment_117927962

No such thing as “ non-denominational” primary schools . ET and many Gaelscoils are multi-denominational.

Technically, all schools , multi-d or faith based have to spend 2.5 hours on religion of some form With the amount to be covered on the primary curriculum, the reality is that a lot of teachers in Catholic schools don’t spend 2.5 hours a week on religion, even in sacrament years .Ironically the multi-D schools may spend that each year, trying to teach a far broader curriculum.

As to a “ban “ on gay teachers in Catholic schools? Like a “ ban” on cohabitating couples/single parents , a non issue .

byhookorbycrook · 24-09-2021 09:12PM

As to religion and going “ home” for lunch: the original primary system was completely non-denom. Religion was taught during “ lunch hour”- which was traditionally 12-1. Children not taking part could then go home for the hour . Teachers weren’t even paid to teach religion. But even then, the state outsourced services to “ outside agencies” so schools came under religious patronage and the system we have now evolved from that .

Flinty997 · 24-09-2021 09:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935180#Comment_117935180

Interesting to look up the history...

National schools, established by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland government, post the Stanley Letter of 1831, and were intended to be multi-denominational.[2][6] The schools were controlled by a state body, the National Board of Education, with a six-member board consisting of two Roman Catholics, two Church of Ireland, and two Presbyterians.

In the national schools, there was to be strict delimitation between religious and non-religious education, where the teacher had to declare that religious education was beginning, hang a sign on the wall or door indicating that religious education was in process, and remove all religious symbols and objects from sight when religious education finished.[7][8] Also, parents had the a notional right to remove their children from this period of religious education if it conflicted with their religious beliefs. Lastly, schools who failed to abide by these rules or who refused admissions of different faiths to the patron were denied state funding. These rules largely remain in place today, but are not consistently recognised by the state, the patron bodies, or the general public.[9][original research?]

In the early nineteenth century, in a climate of animosity between the churches, the multi-denominational system was strongly opposed: the established church (Church of Ireland), though the church of the minority, held a special position and a right to government support in promoting Anglicanism.[10] Both the Roman Catholic Church, which was emerging from a period of suppression in Ireland, and the Protestant Presbyterians, who had also suffered under the penal laws, had sought state support for schools of their own tradition.[10]

(man boards is torture to edit now)

before that...

Hedge schools (Irish names include scoil chois claí, scoil ghairid and scoil scairte) were small informal illegal schools, particularly in 18th- and 19th-century Ireland, designed to secretly provide the rudiments of primary education to children of 'non-conforming' faiths (Catholic and Presbyterian). Under the penal laws only schools for those of the Anglican faith were allowed. Instead Catholics and Presbyterians set up highly informal secret operations that met in private homes.[1]

Interesting.

ForestFire · 24-09-2021 10:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932249#Comment_117932249

Not sure that's quite the analogy your looking for.......?

Barney the dinosaur is very much real ......

I should know after watching many many episodes....and I wish he wasn't.....

Real person, in a real dinosaur suit, talking, singing , playing stupid games with real kids....even if he is actually supposed to be in their imagination only...

rainbowtrout · 25-09-2021 01:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926975#Comment_117926975

I haven't read this many posts of such a confrontational and aggressive nature from a poster on this forum in a long time.

You're just looking for a row in here. There are plenty of other places to go for that.
92% of schools are under the patronage of the church, that effectively makes them private schools that are publicly funded, so they are free to promote whatever ethos they want. Is it fair when 92% of the country don't identify as Catholic, and of those that do, many do not attend mass etc regularly - no it probably isn't fair, but societal change is slow, it doesn't happen overnight.
You have four choices: move your child to a non denominational school (not too many of those around), home school your child (you'd already be doing this if it was what you wanted, so probably a non-runner), find out what time religion is taught to your child's class and remove them from school for that time period each day or provide your child with other activities to do during class time while religion is being taught.
If you approach the school with the aggression you are showing here, you're not going to get very far, and in later years if you try to be confrontational with your child's teachers in primary and secondary, your child will hate you for it.
There is nothing to stop you engaging with the school in a civil manner and asking them what procedures they have in place for children who do not take part in religion. To be honest for such a militant atheist I'm surprised you didn't find out this information when you were enrolling your child.
Have you even had a reasonable conversation with your child about what she hears at school, what she thinks about it and what your view is?

I'm a teacher and an atheist and if I had children and was enrolling them in a local catholic primary school, that is one of the questions I would have asked right from the off.

rainbowtrout · 25-09-2021 01:30AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934722#Comment_117934722

The religion teachers in my (secondary) school regularly say that the students that have opted out of religion are often the ones that contribute the most to religion classes. So while they might be sitting down the back doing their homework or whatever, many of them like to participate in debates on morality or beliefs. Probably a little different at primary school. Should a teacher just ignore them and say 'sorry, you have opted out of religion class, so I can't accept your input?'

Teacher2020 · 25-09-2021 08:36AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934722#Comment_117934722

I teach in the junior end of the school. If we are doing an action song and the child who has opted out of religion gets up and does it with us, am I supposed to tell the child to sit down and they're not allowed to join in? If we are watching a cartoon about noahs ark and the child happens to look up and watch it am I supposed to tell them they aren't allowed to watch the cartoon? If the child joins in on saying the morning prayer am I supposed to tell them to stop and they are not allowed to say it? I'm not prepared to do that and I explain that to parents when they approach me about religion.

Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

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