Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

Honestly think this stuff should go to court at some stage, either domestically for breech of the constitution, which guarantees parents the right to educate their children in a way compatible with their beliefs, and I think the notion that “you can home school“ is frankly a cop out and non-religious options are not very widespread.

I would be curious to know how it fits with some of our obligations under European human rights law too, as it does seem to be blatant indoctrination and discrimination in the context of what is an essential and in reality compulsory attendance public service.

A few excerpts from the Irish Constitution where I really can’t see how the state ever achieved these objectives:

“42.3 1° The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.”

If you can’t home school, which most people reasonably cannot, then it does oblige you to attend certain types of primary school / secondary school and often the only model available is Catholic ethos.

“44.3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.”

Haha… yeah it’s never done that!

“44.4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.”

Only barely implemented some vague version of that in very recent years.

It seems to me it’s a case that some bits of the Constitution seem to matter a lot more than others which are clearly only decorative.

It always looked to me like the framers of the constitution had a far more inclusive and forward looking vision of the education system than the reality of what was delivered throughout the entire history of the state.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058210009/religion-and-engaging-with-the-teacher

Well from a practical point of view who would you expect it to work? If you want your child to be excluded from religions activities then it can’t be done in anyway that would not make it obvious to the other kids that she is different… and being different always marks a kid out with the other kids…. And it does not matter who it is explained by the adults, the heard mentality takes over.

You live in a part of the world with a Christian ethos and I don’t think it is realistic to expect that it will not have an impact, if you want your child brought up in a certain way you will need to be very active about it, you need to start teaching them how to live with your believes in the reality around them.

OP, can you not find a non religious school?

None of the kids in my family are baptised into any religion, noone except my mother believes in God. The kids don't go to religious school and religion doesn't impact on anyone's lives.

But, I have to be honest, I agree with other posters, your posts come across as overly aggressive. There's no need to be, plenty of people are in the same situation as you, but don't feel the need for the aggression.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927382#Comment_117927382

I’ll repeat what I’ve said. No - there are no non religious schools in the area. Just so you know - 96% of primary schools in Ireland are religious.

Bananaleaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927078#Comment_117927078

'spiritual DNA' ... come on.

You're right, I don't care what you think about me. And yep, wouldn't expect you to care what I think of you.

But if we can leave that aside for a second .... you are right that I am being defensive. I'm tired of schools being blamed for things that are ultimately the responsibility of the parent.

For a start, the school will 100% work with you on this if you would just go and ask. Yes you've said you plan on it, well, how about just go and do it. If the school are really that bad that they won't budge on it, then why send them there? Yes you say there isn't another school in the area, then send them further. Does that sound extreme? Well, if you are so extremely against the ethos of a school you chose to send your child to, then desperate times and all that.

I didn't do religion in school. My parents opted me out of it and I'm not religious. So, I appreciate where you are coming from at heart. But ... you are phrasing your comments like you have watched far too much of the Savage Eye. The Catholic Church aren't hiding in the wheelie bin, waiting to rob your children

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927220#Comment_117927220

I have no issue at all with the Christian culture that Europe is based on. Religion is the most interesting of pursuits to debate and pull apart. But faith formation of children in state run schools to all children just because it’s the way it’s always been is unconstitutional and immoral. I don’t want my child to be taught this stuff by publicly funded teachers. I see the Catholic god no different than Zeus or Odin or any other myth.

so from a ‘practical’ point of view - I expect the state to remove 2.5 hours of inculcation to a cult and instead teach maths and english and Irish.

i genuinely find it hard to understand how anyone would believe that primary schools in ireland should spend more time on faith formation than any other school in oecd; and one of the lowest times in the oecd on maths, and English. And I’m not swaying you are doing this - but then have a go at me for having a go at the system. It’s me who has to put up with it rather than accommodating all the spiritual needs of all children.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp8iter/p8iter/p8rrc/

figure 4.3 makes for interesting reading. About 75% ish percentage of parents of primary school children (loose age brackets) believe in a god; 15% don’t; and about 82% of children apparently do believe.

firstly - I’m not the only one that doesn’t believe in these gods. It is discriminatory that school forces a religion on a child.

secondly - it’s hard to accept that parents who don’t believe then go into baptise their child, as is seen by more children being Catholic than their parents. And only about 20% of believers go to mass every week, and those are mostly older https://www.irishtimes.com/news/fewer-than-one-in-five-attend-sunday-mass-in-dublin-1.585731

so children from born religious families have to sit through the drivel of religious inculcation at a young age, to take time out of school for a sacrament and then not go to the church - that they must go to for their belief system - just because it’s the way it is.

I don’t accept it.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927176#Comment_117927176

Very interesting. Thanks for that post. Much better articulated than I.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927435#Comment_117927435

Yes - spiritual DNA

https://www.google.ie/search?q=%22spiritual+dna%22+baptism&client=safari&hl=en-ie&sxsrf=AOaemvK8OgUK7lMRs5yD1wG-FhrmKUTtYQ%3A1632381149668&ei=3ShMYbunKILIgQaR87P4AQ&oq=%22spiritual+dna%22+baptism&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAM6BAgAEEc6BAgAEEM6BQgAEIAEOgYIABAHEB46BggAEBYQHjoFCCEQoAFQ9pEBWN3QAWD61AFoAHABeACAAVSIAecEkgECMTCYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp

 A one-way door. Baptism “imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual sign” and creates an “ontological and permanent bond” with Jesus and the church. And this contract is recorded on a parish baptismal register, forever.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/11/how-do-you-become-formally-not-a-catholic-you-take-the-law-into-your-own-hands

I also tired of schools being blamed for things that are ultimately responsible for by the parent. What’s your point? These schools are religious - with a religious board of management, with a patron that’s a priest, which is not keeping to their commitments in law or the constitution, which hasn’t divested its patronage at all (or at least very minimally) as they were to do so.

Send them further - don’t be dense. I pay my taxes, I live in an area with a lot of schools, al religious, all oversubscribed and - what may come as a surprise to you and many other people - so are the non-religious schools outside of our catchment area. Making out that all the educate together schools are empty waiting for me to send my child there is plain ignorant.

Instead of your suggestion of me moving my home to a place where I’ll be in the same boat. Why don’t you suggest that the schools meets its obligation to the people who pay entirely for the service they provide and which should reflect the diversity of the catchment that they serve.

Haha - savage eye. Good one. if they’re so confident about their religion why don’t they set up after school programmes in the local parish hall. I’m sure all the believers would be happy to send their children there and they can pray to their hearts content.

irelandrover

I'd say before you talk to the teacher you need to think about what you want. You aren't going to get the school to stop teaching religion.

You don't want your child hearing the religion lessons so the only option is to remove your child from the classroom during the lesson or else have them wear headphones so they can't overhear anything. Both of these will lead to your child standing out which you also don't want.

So think about what solution would be acceptable to you before going to talk to the teacher. What do you want the school to do here other than stop teaching religion altogether?

Bananaleaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927487#Comment_117927487

You really need to educate yourself on what is happening in your child's school.

Unless their school is a complete outlier, you don't have a clue.

I am a teacher, I know what I am talking about.

Btw, baptism happens long before they make it to primary school, but sure you know that

TomSweeney

Your kids are atheist already ?

wow ... looks like you didn't give them a chance on making up their own mind ...

Atheists are the biggest sore heads out there, they don't even realise that their religion is "THERE IS NO GOD .... THERE IS NO GOD" ....

TomSweeney

I bet the OP would be **** over Islam if it were being indoctrinated to his/her kids....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927487#Comment_117927487

Why are you insulting people by calling them sense.

Spiritual DNA. I had to laugh at that one.

You obviously believe in something you say you don't believe in.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927176#Comment_117927176

Nice job copying, pasting and highlighting an article from the Constitution. But you might want to try reading it again as it is wholly and entirely irrelevant to the OP.

The school presumably has a religious ethos and most parents who send their child to it are likely happy for their child to learn religion. Otherwise, they could join together and either set up their own school, or eventually take over the existing one and change its ethos.

The OP's issue is a combination of two desires which are mutually incompatible when considered with the above:

1) He does not want his child to take part in religious instruction or classes

2) He does not want his child to be left out when the others in the class do.

Both of of those are being apparently facilitated by the school individually. There is no breach of constitution. However, (1) and (2) can occur together only if the school is forced to deny the teaching of religion to all other students. So this is really what the OP is demanding. This would be no different to, for example, him protesting outside a Jewish school, demanding that they stop the teaching of that religion to those children. And practice of religion is indeed protected by the constitution.

OP says that he has no choice. However there is always a choice. The OP likely did not wake up one morning and form his position in a moment of enlightenment. Nor was it a surprise to learn that a child would need to attend school. Nor was it likely that the school either hid, or suddenly changed its ethos.

If it was really a strongly held belief, then one would have at least 5 years to make an effort to organise an alternative if one really felt strongly. If you want change or an alternative, then do the work and effect that change, or make an alternative feasible.

Princess Calla

This thread is such a wind up.

Opening post says the child is in senior infants.

Another post says they are 4 and can't read or write.

Absolutely zero chance an over subscribed school as the OP has described would take in a 3 yo for junior infants.

Also if it is true your child is in senior infants and can't read or write you have way bigger problems than them learning religion.

whippet

my two children have gone through a catholic national school in a small rural community.

We don't go to mass, we have no mention of religion at home and never made any sort of deal about it.

To the OP - in national school religion really is just about being nice to each other - yes there is talk of jesus (we call him Jeebus in our house as simpsons is as close to religion as we have at home) ... but there is no talk of armageddon, hell or blood sacrifice in school.

The vast majority of teachers are not religious but just do the bare minimum - and the sacraments are 100% optional. I think only 40% of my daughters class opted for confirmation.

There is a lot of colouring and singing in religion ... in reality it isn't a problem unless you want to make it one. My kids have taken on the values of myself and my wife not the hour or so a week of colouring in lad with a beard.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926505#Comment_117926505

To be honest i have to agree with this. I personally am not religious, but i realise that by choosing to send my child to a religious school (because it is the best school imo and feeds into the secondary school we want) that she will engage with religious teachings and have questions of her own over time that ill do my best to answer.

If i felt the way you do id find an educate together school or similar, you kinda want to have your cake and eat it.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926705#Comment_117926705

how far away is the nearest non denominational school?

Effects

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926975#Comment_117926975

What did you expect when you sent your kid to a Catholic school as a staunch atheist? That's what the system is like, and you should have sent your kid to a different school if you had such an issue with it.

It's not right that religions in schools has such a strong foothold, but you still have to work with what you're given.

Ah Ireland. The attitude is if you’re not Catholic, don’t bother. It’s everything it’s stereotyped as when it comes to schools - a theocracy and nobody wants to do anything about it and if you complain, you’re the problem.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928290#Comment_117928290

its not really. I'm not catholic and I do bother. My children have been well educated in a catholic school and it has zero effect on their upbringing. There were muslims, jews, church of ireland and those with no religion in their class and my children learned how to be accepting of everyone and their beliefs even if they didn't really understand them.

There is a nasty strain of militant athiests who seem to have zero tolerance for others which is just a nasty way of living. As i've said before the vast majority of children's morals and principals come from what they learn at home around the dinner table and if there are parents who are aggressive towards the beliefs of others the children may well do the same.

At home we openly talk about what my children's friends do around religious holidays and practices .. its more curiosity than anything else - especially Ramadan .. which even I can't get my head around. But the one bonus for my daughter is that she can join in with the after dusk gorging sessions that some muslim teenagers enjoy!

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928432#Comment_117928432

Great sentiment and excellent summation.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926998#Comment_117926998

You might think about turning that mirror towards yourself, now and then. It would do you good.

I still don’t think you realise what a society you’re building though.

If you send someone to a public school that takes the view that they’re a tolerated interloper, rather than part of the community, you’re setting Ireland up to be a country with very serious problems in a couple of generations.

It isn’t the monoculture it was and we’ve a school system that is, well over 90% of it anyway, a Catholic or Protestant monoculture that vaguely tolerates people rather than a public school system they can feel part of.

You can be polite as you like about it, but thousands of kids today are being made feel like a spare wheel in public schools and in reality, the general public and political world here doesn’t care because that’s how continue to treat people. You’re always the outsider. The blow ins etc etc.

I’m Irish and grew up in a non religious household and spent most of my school days trying to duck around stuff like this, but of course my opinion doesn’t matter because I actually experienced it and, sure what would I know.

I honestly didn’t feel part of a school community. I felt very much part of university though, which had a totally different atmosphere.

However, apparently we’ve no racism or homophobia either. That only happens in awful places you read about in newspapers, not here and if anyone says otherwise, sure they must be imagining it or being over sensitive.

I really relate to James on Derry Girls. Other than I was in a school full of lads, that’s pretty much how it was every day - you’re always the outsider.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929823#Comment_117929823

Not sure where you went to school but my experience was you could kick a ball or were a bit of crack no one gave a fig whether you attended religious classes or not. Most kids of my generation (secondary school in the 90s) werent religous so im surprised you felt like an outsider.

I'd suggest you don't engage with the teacher at all, get your partner to do it.

Sleepy

I'm a devout atheist too OP. There was no issue in getting our daughter opted out of religion in her (Catholic) primary school though I've had less success in her secondary school since, despite being a Community College, they've included Religious Education as a core subject on their curriculum on the view that it's "education" rather than "instruction".

The belief that superstitious nonsense is the definitive antithesis of education and doesn't have any place in an institution of learning doesn't seem to get as much respect as beliefs in virgin births, re-incarnation or the worrying notions that homophobia, mysogyny & paedophaelia are acceptable 😡

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930016#Comment_117930016

We had a statue on the corner of ever class. A cross over ever blackboard. Classes began in the morning with a prayer at 9am, regardless of subject and a significant number of teachers made everyone stand up and say prayers at the start of individual classes and when they wrapped up and you had more prayers at the end of the last class.

Mass was once a month and I got a lot of pressure to attend from two members of staff who saw me as a “pet project”.

I had snide comments like “ah yes the heathen down the back!”

”Sure you don’t got to church, mass nor meeting!”

This was in a a big, urban school in late 90s to early 2000s.

The students were fine. A number of the teachers were just bullies.

I even got regular homophobic wise cracks from one of the staff in class.

“ah sure you wouldn’t be reading the sports section anyway - that’s for sure.”

”All coiffed and looking radiant aren’t we?”

walked in late and got “You grace us with your presence! Did a mirror distract you?”

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930129#Comment_117930129

No offence but that's just school, in our place corporal punishment was still seen as frowned upon rather than illegal, didn't kill anyone.

But if you are gay I can imagine how difficult that must have been in secondary school especially if it was all male.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930129#Comment_117930129

Those days are long gone ... thankfully .. so your own bad experiences won't happen your children .. no need to worry about it .

when I was in secondary school in the late 80s early 90s there was alway the threat of getting a proper clatter off a teacher or even worse .. corporal punishment was on its way out but still existed in some boys schools.

thankfully I know my children wont have to deal with that threat much like your children wont have to worry about having religion beaten into them every day of the week.

thinking otherwise shows either a lack of understanding of what the real world is like now or wanting to be a drama queen about it