Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931668#Comment_117931668

as rickey gervais once said i only believe in one less god than you

rock22

Karlitob, I too am an agnostic and nave been through it all.

But I suspect you are might be a member of the Evangelical Atheist church

Purple Mountain

I get that they are all originally pagan celebrations but they were hijacked by Christanity.

So for the OP to be truly 100% atheist, s/he won't be calling it Christmas, just treating it as a winter school break with no bells and whistles.

The OP hasn't come back yet to clarify the age of the child so I suspect we're wasting our time here.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932933#Comment_117932933

They said in their OP that child was in senior infants (average age 5/6) then in follow up reply they said child was 4 and couldn't read or write. Which is why I called bullsh*t on the thread.

I suspect that the OP expected a more robust religious debate which is why he had articles at the ready.

Instead he got "yeah sure it is what it is" cos the stark reality is if parents intend to bring up children in a certain way they have already settled in an area that affords that option.

Other than that most parents pick a school based on reputation and how close the school is, or else make the conscious decision that they will make a long school run to get what they want.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931411#Comment_117931411

Both celebrations, along with Halloween/All souls day, are a lot older than their current Christian iterations and people have been celebrating at that time of the year for thousands of years. Do you really think bringing a conifer tree into your house or buying chocolate eggs for your kids have anything to do with Jesus?

Even things like hot cross buns and celebrating by eating pancakes have pre-Christian origins.

Christianity amalgamated ancient pagan traditions into their own calendar to aid with converting the pagan locals at the time. It was a stroke of genius, lots of the older traditions have now been lost and rebranded with Christian ones slapped on instead. you can even see it in the Irish language.

I don't see anything wrong with non religious kids celebrating a big fat jolly man coming down their chimney to hide presents under a conifer tree on the Winter Solstice. Jesus doesn't need to come near the equation.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932933#Comment_117932933

The OP can call it whatever they want.

That's the great thing about being an atheist that a lot of folks don't seem to get, you don't have to prescribe to a set menu of belief - you can pick and chose to celebrate whatever you want. Just because you don't believe it/think it's nonsense doesn't meant you can't still have fun with it and enjoy the season.

Teacher2020

As a teacher, I've had quite a few parents request that their child does not do religion.

I've explained to parents that I do religion for 30 minutes every day. I'm happy to do that at the start/end of the day so that they can drop them off 30 minutes late or pick them up 30 minutes early.

If parents aren't willing to do that, then I give the child an alternative activity but I will never tell a child that they cannot participate if they express that they want to.

Choochtown

Like the OP we had no choice where to send our children. Local catholic school with neighbours or many miles away with strangers.

We chose local and just let things pan out. Of course there was far too time wasted on religion but we adopted a very "laissez-faire" attitude to things.

Eventually when each of our children hit about 9 or 10 years old, the inevitable question came: "why don't we go to mass like John's family?"

The answer from me was swift and honest: "I don't believe in god"

That was processed for a while and then from each child in their own time (generally a few months) came ... "I don't believe in god either"

Now that my children are young adults I have spoken to them about this approach and they tell me that they are pleased that I never told them to believe or not to believe.

They are atheists and that is what they have chosen.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933282#Comment_117933282

glad it all worked out, but you did have a choice, you just chose the more convenient one.

Purple Mountain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933282#Comment_117933282

Can I ask if they made communion/confirmation? I'm just curious because where I live I know a lot of people don't attend Mass but the children made the sacraments. I'd be in the bracket myself.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933191#Comment_117933191

".... but I will never tell a child that they cannot participate if they express that they want to. ..."

Whatever happened to Parents being the primary educators??

If the parents had opted the child out of the RSE module would you still let the child join in if they wanted?

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934722#Comment_117934722

Parents are the primary educators. That doesn’t mean they run a teacher’s classroom.

If the child expresses a wish to take part when the parents have asked that not be included, the correct course of action is probably to inform the parent, and ask that they either talk the child out of it, or allow it. It isn’t reasonable to expect a teacher to refuse to allow a child to participate in something the rest of their classmates are participating in, short of hat thing being dangerous or illegal (and contrary to what some people will no doubt claim, there’s little danger in school religion classes, whether you believe in God or not).

Flinty997

You see a lot of parents moving area to get into the catchment to get into what they feel is a good school. People move countries to get better jobs, and access to better education. I certainly moved to a locationbto have access to things like this and transport options etc.

I'm not sure why that's different for religion. Why is not wanting a religious education any different from the above.

I don't think religion should be in schools and I recognize people are trying to change the system. But I don't really understand why you make choices that paint you into a corner when it comes to choosing a school.

I think it would be very hard to give advice about schools and teachers when they all very different. You'd need to get advice specific to the teachers and schools you are going to.

byhookorbycrook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927962#Comment_117927962

No such thing as “ non-denominational” primary schools . ET and many Gaelscoils are multi-denominational.

Technically, all schools , multi-d or faith based have to spend 2.5 hours on religion of some form With the amount to be covered on the primary curriculum, the reality is that a lot of teachers in Catholic schools don’t spend 2.5 hours a week on religion, even in sacrament years .Ironically the multi-D schools may spend that each year, trying to teach a far broader curriculum.

As to a “ban “ on gay teachers in Catholic schools? Like a “ ban” on cohabitating couples/single parents , a non issue .

byhookorbycrook

As to religion and going “ home” for lunch: the original primary system was completely non-denom. Religion was taught during “ lunch hour”- which was traditionally 12-1. Children not taking part could then go home for the hour . Teachers weren’t even paid to teach religion. But even then, the state outsourced services to “ outside agencies” so schools came under religious patronage and the system we have now evolved from that .

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935180#Comment_117935180

Interesting to look up the history...

National schools, established by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland government, post the Stanley Letter of 1831, and were intended to be multi-denominational.[2][6] The schools were controlled by a state body, the National Board of Education, with a six-member board consisting of two Roman Catholics, two Church of Ireland, and two Presbyterians.

In the national schools, there was to be strict delimitation between religious and non-religious education, where the teacher had to declare that religious education was beginning, hang a sign on the wall or door indicating that religious education was in process, and remove all religious symbols and objects from sight when religious education finished.[7][8] Also, parents had the a notional right to remove their children from this period of religious education if it conflicted with their religious beliefs. Lastly, schools who failed to abide by these rules or who refused admissions of different faiths to the patron were denied state funding. These rules largely remain in place today, but are not consistently recognised by the state, the patron bodies, or the general public.[9][original research?]

In the early nineteenth century, in a climate of animosity between the churches, the multi-denominational system was strongly opposed: the established church (Church of Ireland), though the church of the minority, held a special position and a right to government support in promoting Anglicanism.[10] Both the Roman Catholic Church, which was emerging from a period of suppression in Ireland, and the Protestant Presbyterians, who had also suffered under the penal laws, had sought state support for schools of their own tradition.[10]

(man boards is torture to edit now)

before that...

Hedge schools (Irish names include scoil chois claí, scoil ghairid and scoil scairte) were small informal illegal schools, particularly in 18th- and 19th-century Ireland, designed to secretly provide the rudiments of primary education to children of 'non-conforming' faiths (Catholic and Presbyterian). Under the penal laws only schools for those of the Anglican faith were allowed. Instead Catholics and Presbyterians set up highly informal secret operations that met in private homes.[1]

Interesting.

ForestFire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932249#Comment_117932249

Not sure that's quite the analogy your looking for.......?

Barney the dinosaur is very much real ......

I should know after watching many many episodes....and I wish he wasn't.....

Real person, in a real dinosaur suit, talking, singing , playing stupid games with real kids....even if he is actually supposed to be in their imagination only...

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926975#Comment_117926975

I haven't read this many posts of such a confrontational and aggressive nature from a poster on this forum in a long time.

1. You're just looking for a row in here. There are plenty of other places to go for that.
2. 92% of schools are under the patronage of the church, that effectively makes them private schools that are publicly funded, so they are free to promote whatever ethos they want. Is it fair when 92% of the country don't identify as Catholic, and of those that do, many do not attend mass etc regularly - no it probably isn't fair, but societal change is slow, it doesn't happen overnight.
3. You have four choices: move your child to a non denominational school (not too many of those around), home school your child (you'd already be doing this if it was what you wanted, so probably a non-runner), find out what time religion is taught to your child's class and remove them from school for that time period each day or provide your child with other activities to do during class time while religion is being taught.
4. If you approach the school with the aggression you are showing here, you're not going to get very far, and in later years if you try to be confrontational with your child's teachers in primary and secondary, your child will hate you for it.
5. There is nothing to stop you engaging with the school in a civil manner and asking them what procedures they have in place for children who do not take part in religion. To be honest for such a militant atheist I'm surprised you didn't find out this information when you were enrolling your child.
6. Have you even had a reasonable conversation with your child about what she hears at school, what she thinks about it and what your view is?

I'm a teacher and an atheist and if I had children and was enrolling them in a local catholic primary school, that is one of the questions I would have asked right from the off.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934722#Comment_117934722

The religion teachers in my (secondary) school regularly say that the students that have opted out of religion are often the ones that contribute the most to religion classes. So while they might be sitting down the back doing their homework or whatever, many of them like to participate in debates on morality or beliefs. Probably a little different at primary school. Should a teacher just ignore them and say 'sorry, you have opted out of religion class, so I can't accept your input?'

Teacher2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934722#Comment_117934722

I teach in the junior end of the school. If we are doing an action song and the child who has opted out of religion gets up and does it with us, am I supposed to tell the child to sit down and they're not allowed to join in? If we are watching a cartoon about noahs ark and the child happens to look up and watch it am I supposed to tell them they aren't allowed to watch the cartoon? If the child joins in on saying the morning prayer am I supposed to tell them to stop and they are not allowed to say it? I'm not prepared to do that and I explain that to parents when they approach me about religion.

Idle Passerby

I was brought up by non religious parents. Mum was just ambivalent, dad an atheist. They didn't try to absent me from religion in school probably because, 1. it was the 80s and they already caused raised eyebrows by not attending mass in our village and 2. They likely couldn't have been arsed making a song and dance about it. I believed what I was told by teachers until I realised there were other opinions and it was all opinion rather than fact. Then at around 9 or so I made up my own mind.

I'm non-religious. I'd say athiest but that term often comes with its own rigid dogma that I have no interest in subscribing to. Anyway, I'd prefer my child not to be taught religion in school but unfortunately, majority Catholic schools are how it is here. Particularly in less built up areas. You are far from the only one unhappy about this. There have been calls for change for decades, but those in school now will have kids of their own by the time there's any noticeable change. 100 years of Catholic ownership of schools won't be overturned in a year or two.

I won't be putting my child through any religious ceremonies but I also won't be demanding that my child has nothing to do with religion classes in school. I'll let them know that those ideas are a belief some hold and some don't and it's up to each individual to decide what they believe.

Your very staunchly atheist approach OP is no more moral that someone who forces their religion on someone. If you aggressively prevent someone being exposed to something they will actively seek it out. I wouldn't be at all surprised if your kid ended up developing an interest in religion precisely because they know it riles you up so much. What better way for a kid to rebel than do something their parent loaths.

You'd get further with your crusade if you reconsidered your tactics. Join a group that advocates for a change in school patronage/influence. Your in for a long battle and you catch more flies with honey.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936379#Comment_117936379

What do ye do with kids who's parents opt them out of the RSE module?

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933895#Comment_117933895

Yeah they did. By confirmation time neither of them believed in it but just fancied a day out / couldn't be bothered opting out.

Communion just sort of happened. We did give them the choice of opting out of confirmation but the answer in each case was sort of "mneh I'll do it"

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933342#Comment_117933342

Technically you are correct. I did have a choice. Let them go to school with their friends or pack my job in and drive them for miles every day.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936574#Comment_117936574

This above sums it up. We have an education system that's tailored for the perceived needs of the majority. One can quote the constitution all you like but the fact is that the state does not have to provide an education system tailored to the individual needs of children or families. The only certain way to avoid all religion in primary or secondary education is to help your children learn at home. But they will (hopefully) still meet family and neighbours who are more aligned to the mainstream and will pick up influences particularly from their peers. The only long term solution is to remove all vestiges of religious teaching from the education system and leave it as a subject to be dealt with within the family and parish. But that's a long term project and one that would meet serious resistance from many parents and interested parties.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936998#Comment_117936998

Why would a different school necessitate you packing your job in?

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936998#Comment_117936998

You say you didn't have a choice but you had already entered your children into "god's family" ......communions don't just "sort of happen" you need to be baptised first so I presume that happened 7-8 years prior to the communion.

So if you don't believe in God why did you start them on that path when they were babies?

I'm ambivalent about the whole issue I don't mind them participating in religion class etc but they are not baptised. (Well one is happened on their granny's death bed in hospital, she really wanted it, I didn't want her haunting me, so I caved, she died a couple of days later ) However that's where it ends.

I just don't understand people saying they don't believe in God but their children have received all the religious sacraments. Then wondering why the system is slow to change.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935487#Comment_117935487

Still works for me. Both are fictional characters and we have to take the words of men in funny suits as to what they are saying.

Teacher2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936978#Comment_117936978

Similarly to religion opt outs I presume. We would teach it at the beginning or end of a school day. Parents who wish their children to not receive RSE drop their child late or pick up early. I've never encountered a RSE opt out. It would be very strange that a parent wouldn't want RSE taught to their child. Definitely would be a red flag.

SouthWesterly

My kids did RE up to senior infants. I read the books and decided it was benign enough to allow them learn about being nice and considerate people. Opted out in first class and they just colour or read in class while it's being taught along with about 20% of the class who arent RC either.

It's not an issue for us. We're Christian but not RC. There are Muslim, Hindu and protestants in the school as well.

It's a semi rural school with about 200 kids. I'm also on the parents association. Our previous school was RC and I was on the board of management.

py2006

This is all a lot of nonsense and could cause unnecessary stress for your poor child.

Children don't come out of primary school as religious fanatics. There is no big deal in them sitting in the class and participating.

If you really feel that strongly about it, just have a friendly conversation with your child saying, "that is what a lot of people believed throughout history, some people believe in it today and others don't. Your mother and I personally don't but we respect our friends that do".

That is pretty much all it takes.

Random sample

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936978#Comment_117936978

Anyone I’ve met who felt that strongly about taking them out of RSE made sure to have their kids out of the building while the class was happening.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937800#Comment_117937800

if a teacher brought in a crystal healer or homeopath and started to dazzle with cancer cure stories would you be fine with it?

The church themselves got a bit hot under the collar when some kids were doing Yoga in schools.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/catholic-bishop-warns-against-yoga-and-mindfulness-in-schools-1.4055449

Treppen

"Anyone I’ve met who felt that strongly about taking them out of RSE made sure to have their kids out of the building while the class was happening."

That's not quite what I'm asking though.

Are there accommodations made for parents who can't take their kids out of school and are opting out of RSE?

Blazer

What's the harm in it honestly?

Both me and my partner are completely atheist and I'm extremely anti religion etc but we still let our son enroll in religion. Will let him make up his own mind down the road etc as I don't want to force my beliefs on anyone else.

If he chooses to believe fair enough.. if he doesn't then equally good but at the end of the day at least its his own decision to make.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058210009/religion-and-engaging-with-the-teacher

I don’t think there is a best approach to be honest, certainly not at this stage when you’ve chosen to enrol your child in the school and you never mentioned it at the time. I don’t know what reasons are obvious for not doing so, but I’m not going to pry. The Principal might want to know though, so you should be prepared to discuss your dilemma with the Principal rather than just your child’s teacher, as the ethos in any Catholic school is an all encompassing one that doesn’t just kick in and out at set times in the school day so best be prepared to discuss the issue of your child being exposed to religion outside of those set times for classes too.

You don’t want your daughter being ostracised in class or singled out, but you also don’t want her exposed to religion in a school with a religious ethos. I would suggest you need to decide before you meet anyone which one of those two conflicting ideals you’re willing to compromise on. It will no doubt be pointed out to you that you chose to compromise your ideals in order to enrol your child in the school where you were completely aware she would be exposed to religion, yet you chose to put her in that position anyway. The school did not choose to put your child in the position she’s in, nor did they put you in the position you find yourself.

You say her teacher is great and your child is really enjoying school, so you need to be prepared for what could happen if you don’t get your own way on either count and you have to either compromise on your ideals, or choose an entirely alternative means to educate your child while also considering whether they will still be as happy with your choices, if your child’s happiness is also a priority which you don’t appear to have considered before enrolling them in a school which is not consistent with your world view.

Whatever you do, I’d avoid any more mentioning about your being a taxpayer and your rights and your child’s rights and how you love to debate about religion. The teacher and the Principal are unlikely to be interested in entertaining your nonsense, and you’re expecting them to be reasonable so the onus is upon you to behave reasonably in the first place rather than ensuring that the situation will escalate beyond the point where you’re currently hoping for a positive outcome for your child. Your child’s welfare is the most important thing to keep in your mind, not your rants about religion.

Blazer

^^

To be honest if the Op has any sense of morality they would never have enrolled their child in a religious school. But they're complete hypocrites. No worries whatsoever about taking what they can from a religious school and ranting about forcing religion on children when they're forcing their view on their own child.

Donald Trump

I have to laugh at the posts that "blah blah all religion is evil but it's fine to celebrate festivals because Christianity/Catholicism stole them from other religions".

You're either against religions in principle or you aren't. In reality, most are just anti-Catholic who are trying to mask their bigotry

Teacher2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939614#Comment_117939614

There aren't any accommodations that can be made. The children can't be sent to another classroom. All other teachers/principals/SNAs are busy doing their own work so there is no one available to supervise. In the junior end, RSE is very unoffensive. Even at the senior end there are only a handful of lessons that deal with sex. The rest is mostly about taking care of your body and personal safety. It is part of the curriculum. Parents who really want them to opt out will find a way to take the child out themselves. Otherwise they will be in the room when RSE is being taught.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937261#Comment_117937261

My children were not baptised.

The priest let that one slide when doing the communion and confirmation.

Small community. He didn't want to make a big fuss I suppose.

Purple Mountain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941362#Comment_117941362

If you didn't baptise them then why would you put them forward for communion and confirmation?

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941379#Comment_117941379

You can be a cultural Catholic too!

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937215#Comment_117937215

Hi Cyrus.

I see that you took issue with my use of the phrase "no choice".

It was not meant literally. Of course technically I had a choice (and incidently I'm very happy with the one that I made).

My job requires me to be in work at 8.30am every weekday morning. Getting children to a location 30km away for 8.30am every weekday morning would require either paying 100s of euro per week for a taxi for them at that time or quitting my job to drive them myself.

Sometimes in life you need to weigh up the pros and cons of a situation. (1 hour of wasted religious claptrap per day vs long journeys and separation from neighbours and a big financial hit).

The latter was way way too much of a sacrifice; hence my use of the widely used term "no choice". Apologies if you think it was meant literally.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941379#Comment_117941379

I didn't put them forward. Everyone in the class was doing it. It helped them fit in I suppose.

I don't understand why it's such a big deal for others like yourself.

Do you find what we did offensive? I see it as no more or less a deal than taking them to see Santa when they were younger.

Homelander

It's not rocket science. Contrary to what you seem to believe, religion isn't drummed into kids at school nor is it the source of lifelong faith. True religion is a cultural phenomenom and it is "learned" through lifestyle, not something a teacher tells you for 30 minutes twice a week.

You seem awfully, and illogically, wound up on it and aggressively deflecting your own opinion onto your child.

Just kindly ask the teacher if your kids can do something else while religion is being taught, no harm done - what kid wouldn't prefer to be able to play or color in a book rather than listen.

Your responses are completely unnecessarily condescending and aggressive. I would advise that you speak to the teacher concerned in a less combative manner maybe and stop making a Mount Everest out of nothing.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941362#Comment_117941362

But what about what you wanted? You're the parent.

It's a communion so I presume you went out and purchased a dress/suit for the child and an outfit for yourself and your partner. So your own actions are telling a complete different story to the narrative of not believing in God. All it would have taken is a 5 minute conversation with the priest/teacher.

Until there comes a point that people's actions match what they are saying we will always have religion in the school. It's a numbers game. If 95% of the student body makes their communion/confirmation it's a more difficult argument to put forward, however if that drops to 50% or below then definitely the status quo has to be challenged.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941766#Comment_117941766

You make a very valid point.

One way of looking at things is that we took the coward's way out and succumbed to peer pressure or the reluctance to come across as different. Not attending mass in the area had already raised eyebrows.

Another view is that we did what we thought would do least damage to our kids. Without knowing our very personal circumstances, no one is in a position to judge us for that call.

I agree with the point you make and to be honest was aware of that argument at the time. Part of me is ashamed for not perhaps considering it more carefully all those years ago although I am delighted with how my children have turned out.

byhookorbycrook

I’d be fascinated to know where in Ireland “ not attending mass raised eyebrows “ in this day and age ?

Purple Mountain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117942200#Comment_117942200

I'm not judging you at all by the way. I was just curious if you opted out completely.

I get 100% what you're saying and living in rural Ireland myself, I know exactly about raised eyebrows but I hoping it's not as bad now as when we were kids.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937261#Comment_117937261

I'd presume a lot of it was to be able to enrol in Catholic schools where schools could legally discriminate based on ethos. Known as the 'baptism barrier'. Legislation changed recently, so there might be a drop off in time on baptisms of children where the parents don't go to mass etc.