Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215299#Comment_118215299

I think there should be freedom of and from religion. We should never have a situation where a child has to sit through Catholic indoctrination if the parents do not want it. The point was that it would not be accepted that a Catholic child has to go to an Islamic school for example. We wouldn't have the excuses like:

• its only a few prayers
• Why don't you set up your own school?
• Emigrate FFS!

Yet this is the type of thing that non-religious people have to put up with the whole time. The vast majority of the schools in the state are Catholic. There is an increasing number of people with no religion who don't want the indoctrination. The schools are private but almost fully funded by the state. There should at the very least be the possibility to have the kids facilitated elsewhere while the religious instruction is going on.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215565#Comment_118215565

I don't understand how you can allow him to be taught about the Catholic religion then. you're not allowing him to make up his own mind really.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215565#Comment_118215565

Firstly if you know of a school that teaches all religions as part of its curriculum?

Educate Together. Have you been reading the thread at all?

Secondly I'm an atheist. Why would I teach him about religion if I don't believe in it.

Why would you have others instruct him in (not teach him about!) a specific religion that you don't believe in?

There is nothing whatsoever hypocritical about anyone sending their child to a school, which their taxes pay for after all, and exercising their constitutional right to opt their child out of religious instruction. In most cases they have no other option but to send their child to a catholic ethos school.

Saying you want your child to make up their own mind about religion then having their school instruct them in a specific faith every single day is a complete contradiction.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118175771#Comment_118175771

Schools have moved on from tokenistic integration. The aim is inclusion.

But inclusion into what.... Education or indoctrination.

And again... Telling someone to go elsewhere is denying their primary right to an education.

Blazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215761#Comment_118215761

actually I am...they're not beating it into kids these days. Plus instead of having parents who are believers he has 2 that are non-believers.

I'm quite happy to discuss with him---he's 8 and has Asperger's so is extremely extremely intelligent and has done his own research on this and he doesn't believe in God either. But he's quite happy to attend the class and discuss with the teacher and believe me he really puts it to her.

He's open minded to a lot of things so why deny him? Let him make his own mind up.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215692#Comment_118215692

That’s rubbish though. You’re misrepresenting the situation in various ways, and also ignoring an ongoing situation unrelated to the teaching of any particular subject: the schools are not properly resourced. There are plenty of schools who can’t offer various subjects because only a handful of students want to study them, not because they don’t have teachers to teach them but because they haven’t been allocated the teaching hours to facilitate it, and you want teaching hours allocated to people whose parents want them to not be exposed to views they disagree with? And yes, they would have to be allocated teaching hours because they can’t just be left unsupervised.

There are plenty of other things wrong with what you’re saying but without resolving that one, the others aren’t very relevant.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220584#Comment_118220584

Yes, that is exactly what I want and I don't think it is unreasonable either. It could be funded with increased parent contributions for example.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220584#Comment_118220584

With respect to the rest that you dismissed as rubbish, you know very well that there would be absolute outrage here if a Catholic child was going to a school where they were being taught as fact that God isn't real. Yet many don't seem to have a problem with their own religion being imposed on others.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118171109#Comment_118171109

What has that got to do with primary schools indoctrinating children in one specific religion

If people want to be spiritual, to abandon consumerism and take a more philosophical attitude towards life, that's great, you're absolutely perfectly welcome to do so. But that's not the same as teaching kids their catechism and preparing them for their sacraments in the RCC

I want to know was the op indoctrined in a religion and is that why they are angry?

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118175771#Comment_118175771

State funded primary schools should not be 'Faith schools'.

If the church wants kids to be educated in religion, they should provide these course outside of school hours, and let the parents pay for them.

But even if you allow these schools to still have religious 'patrons' then the schools should still abide by the human rights of the children and parents to have freedom of religion, and they should provide adequate facilities for children of non religious families to spend that time in an educationally beneficial way, other than the current way of abandoning them at the back of the class to twiddle their thumbs while the other kids are doing religion

My kids were even forbidden from doing their homework during these times on the basis that this would have been 'unfair' to the other kids. Laughable

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214997#Comment_118214997

Exactly. Catholic parents would not tolerate their children being treated the same way that children from non religious households are treated in our catholic state funded primary schools

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215299#Comment_118215299

Or maybe schools should educate children, and churches can teach them about religion.

Religion has no place in a primary school.

All children should be educated equally, and children should not be taught catholic dogma as truth when they're still learning basics like how to read and do maths and way before they know how to think for themselves.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118215565#Comment_118215565

You're an atheist, but you think it's a good idea for children to be taught, as truth, by their teacher, who's job it is to prepare them for life, that god and angels and jesus and miracles and heaven and hell etc etc, that all of these things are just as real as the geography and science and maths and music and art that they are being taught by that same teacher for the rest of the day.

Just because the RC church happen to have come into possession of the vast majority of primary schools in Ireland, does not mean it should be this way

Just because some vocal catholic parents are insistent on keeping their school's ties to the catholic church, doesn't mean this is in those children's best interest, or that these vocal minority should be pandered to.

Schools should educate children to the highest standards available. The curriculum should be up to date and relevant, and modern. We don't teach children about homeopathy even if half those kids parents think homeopathy is real and believe in it. We don't teach anti vax conspiracy theories to kids, and we shouldn't teach religious dogma to primary school children as truth in a modern secular democracy.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217159#Comment_118217159

Are you one of those 'Atheists' who got their child baptised to avoid rocking the boat, keep the granny happy etc, and are going to have your child baptised, take him first communion, confession, confirmation etc...

What kind of instruction are you giving to your kid as an atheist parent? Yeah, we lied when you were christened, pretended to believe in public and made a promise we never intended to keep, then we made you lie on your confirmation, by promising to follow the faith even though you don't believe in it...

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221946#Comment_118221946

Or the catholic church can fund religious classes and let the teachers teach kids stuff that will benefit them in their education.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222137#Comment_118222137

That is about as likely as them contributing towards compensation for survivors of sexual abuse. But, yes it would be a good idea if "owners" of the schools contributed more financially.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217159#Comment_118217159

They don't have to beat it into them, their whole day at school is surrounded by it, and preparation for sacraments is huge.

It's not letting him make up his own mind when he is being taught that these things are fact. If he was getting education on all religions, and then he made up his own mind, that would be different.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222052#Comment_118222052

Parents want their children taught religion. If they didn’t, more of them would insist on their children being opted out.

The majority of those parents (in Ireland) want their children taught Catholicism, primarily, because the majority of people in this country are Catholics.

I have a suspicion that you’d have absolutely no problem if schools were teaching children that God is not real and that all religions are a waste of time. I apologise if I’m wrong on that, but I suspect that I’m not, and if I’m not, you’re just as willing to force your views on others as any religion is, and that goes for anyone else who feels that way too, obviously.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221946#Comment_118221946

So you’re saying that parents should pay extra so that schools can take a minority of students out of religion classes? I suspect that that actually wouldn’t be considered fair.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222449#Comment_118222449

Yes, because there is increased cost in having a system like that. I already pay a lot towards a system that my kids didn't have access to. How is that fair? They are in an educate together and were lucky to get a place.

I think it makes sense that parents pay a contribution towards the schools. It certainly shouldn't be the state picking up the tab. Maybe the "owners" could chip in and then you wouldn't have under resourced schools?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221980#Comment_118221980

Well of course they don't. It's naked hypocrisy.

Also RealJohn's post spoke of 'alternative subjects' etc. i.e. second level, everyone else was discussing primary level as few kids these days entertain any pretence of religion beyond sixth class (getting the confirmation payout)

But even in the ETB schools fully owned by the state, the TUI blocked making religion optional! So what hope do parents forced to send their kids to explicitly religious ethos schools have?

In my view imposing a religious belief on kids in school as young as 5 is harmful, especially when kids from families of a different religion or none are forced to go to different schools, or are sitting at the back of the class, etc. (I even heard of one case where the opted-out child was made to go to the principal's office when religion was being taught - that is usually regarded as a punishment.)

Ireland in the 21st century, ladies and gentlemen. It's a disgrace.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222440#Comment_118222440

No, I don't want schools to get involved in religion at all other than to foster an environment of openess and acceptance to people from all backgrounds.

Teaching about world religions is OK but given the limited resources available to schools I think it should be a much smaller part of the school curriculum

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222526#Comment_118222526

I think it makes sense that parents pay a contribution towards the schools. 

It's called "taxation" 🙄 I pay the same as everyone else but my child is treated as a second class citizen.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222449#Comment_118222449

No, the church should pay to hold religious education classes and the parents who want their kids to participate can pay higher church contributions to pay for it.

I wonder how many of these parents would opt in or how many children would want to participate if it meant missing out on the alternative lessons (whatever those are)

From my experience with my own kids, the schools deliberately do not offer alternatives to religion for non religious kids, because they know it would cause other parents to complain that their kids can't avail of those lessons.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222440#Comment_118222440

The majority of those parents (in Ireland) want their children taught Catholicism, primarily, because the majority of people in this country are Catholics.

Where is the actual evidence of this?

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118223159#Comment_118223159

The census.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118223146#Comment_118223146

Sure. And the various other regulatory bodies should pay to have their subjects taught. Let the crown pay for our english lessons for a start. The majority (albeit a shrinking majority) speak english as a first language anyway.

If they’re to teach French, let Alliance Francaise pay for it. If they want to teach physics, let the Institute of Physics pay for it.

Or we could let the education system continue to do the teaching, funded by the taxpayer, and the cranks can accept that just because they don’t want religion taught in schools doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be, and just because they think religion has no place in schools doesn’t mean they’re right.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118223145#Comment_118223145

You’re right about the first part and wrong about the second.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118223703#Comment_118223703

Of course religion shouldn't be taught in schools, unless it's as a subject to learn about all religions.

I can't believe anyone in this day and age believe that small children should be indoctrinated while at school. Do it on sunday, in the church, after mass.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118223667#Comment_118223667

Riiight... so if a pensioner in the other end of the country from me ticks a box that he or she is a catholic, it should influence what sort of school my kids can access?

Give me a break. 🙄

Adults forming families nowadays have a choice - many of them choose to remain unmarried despite catholic doctrine - the majority of people in Ireland nowadays who do choose to get married actively choose a non-church marriage. But when any of the above are enrolling their kids in school, they're almost always forced to kowtow to a church

I thought we lived in a republic, not a theocracy.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118223713#Comment_118223713

I'm not wrong about the second. Have you ever enrolled a non-religious child in the Irish school system? Pretty sure you haven't...

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118224533#Comment_118224533

Changed tactic when the answer to your question didn’t suit you. What a shock.

As I said before, the system is how it is because it’s what the majority wants. That’s how a republic works.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118224422#Comment_118224422

Another one stating their personal opinion as fact.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216609#Comment_118216609

The context is people wanting to go to the nearest faith school and be fully integrated and not excluded, while at the same time having zero exposure to any religion. Which was what the op asked.

I'm not sure that's possible. No one here has offered any solution to that except to remove the faith ethos from all faith schools. So that's basically want to go to the local muslin school and they remove religion to facilitate you. Basically there should be no faith schools.

As for moving it's about finding a school that you want. You don't want to go to any school other than the nearest one. Our nearest school didn't suit me so I sent mine to another school a little further away. This is common for lots of people. But you don't want to do this. It's not even possible these days due to over subscription and change of admissions policy's to remove most if the priority for locals.

It's all very well saying the whole system should be changed. But how does that answer the ops question.

In fact all these threads could be merged. No one answers the questions or brings anything new to the table they all end up being the same because the same few people make them all the same.

No religion in schools end of. End of discussion.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222526#Comment_118222526

I've yet to experience a "free" school that doesn't hit you with fees or "voluntary contributions". So we are paying a contribution. Well 80% of us are.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/sending-child-to-primary-school-costs-1-000-study-finds-1.2719583

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118224533#Comment_118224533

The problem is not just the census. But there are powerful and influential people on boards of management and in govt and in lobby groups (often with extreme views) who want to keep religious influence in schools and hospitals etc. That's really where the struggle is.

Those lobbying for no religion in schools will have to gain influence there to change the status quo.

Hotblack Desiato

Do you really think a religious patron can be "influenced"?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118224669#Comment_118224669

Changing tactic?

There is no question on the census form about what "ethos" you want your local school to be.

Most parents today are either unmarried or got married in a non-catholic ceremony, what precisely makes you think they all want catholic schools for their kids?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226431#Comment_118226431

I assume the idea would be to get a patron for you want on these various boards and in govt. Make it an election issue.

Aleppo_rex

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118223703#Comment_118223703

Imagine comparing apples and oranges, then placing your flag and claiming victory with such confidence.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222440#Comment_118222440

You wouldn't think the majority were Catholics based on Mass attendance on Sunday mornings.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118226444#Comment_118226444

I’d love to see figures to back that claim up, but even if we said it was true, you can be an unmarried parent and a Catholic and you can get married in a non-Catholic ceremony and still be a Catholic.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118231525#Comment_118231525

How am I “comparing applies and oranges”?

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234099#Comment_118234099

And if you couldn’t be a Catholic without attending mass every Sunday, that might be in some way relevant.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246443#Comment_118246443

I don't know why you find these figures surprising.

CSO stats for 2016 - these kids are starting school now:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-vsar/vitalstatisticsannualreport2016/births2016/

In 2016, 40,455 (or 63.4%) births occurred within marriage/civil partnership and 23,386 (or 36.6%) births occurred outside marriage/civil partnership.

2018 was the first year when less than half of marriages were Catholic (47.6%) and it slumped to 43.6% in 2019:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mar/marriages2018/

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mar/marriages2019/

Some of these couples will have had kids already when they got married, others not yet, but one way or the other their kids are in the education system already or will be very soon.

So combine the number of parents not married with the massive decline in recent years in Catholic marriages and it's clear - when people of childbearing age have the choice to avoid involvement with the Catholic church they are increasingly choosing that option. But when it comes to schools they usually have no choice.

Our education system reflects 1950s Ireland. The religious patronage model is not fit for purpose.

Oh and the bang of sheer desperation off the "it doesn't matter what you say, or do, or think - you're still a Catholic" is something else. As is the reliance on pensioners ticking boxes on the census to somehow justify the lack of non-RC school options available for parents of 5 year olds.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246645#Comment_118246645

Thank you for providing a source, at least.

However, you’re still making a lot of assumptions. Again, just because people choose not to get married in the Church does not mean that they’re not Catholics, nor does it necessarily mean that one of the two is not a Catholic. There are many reasons people might choose not to get married in the Church while still being Catholic.

You’re also ignoring that a great many Catholics have children before being married. That doesn’t mean that they’re not Catholic. I met a couple recently who’ve been together 25 years and have children, but are only now choosing to get married and they’re getting married in the Church. They’re in a minority of Catholics who’d wait that long, I would think, but they’re still Catholics.

Atheists don’t actually get to set out the conditions for Catholicism or what qualifies someone as a Catholic. And you don’t get close to 80% of the population declaring themselves Catholic on the census (and a great many more non-Catholic Christian) if you’re relying on pensioners.

Catholics cannot even leave the church if they want to, so pretty hard for people to deny being Catholic, even though they may not practise.

So basically, just because someone is a Catholic, it does not actually mean they are necessarily Catholic 😁

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246453#Comment_118246453

"every Sunday" isn't really the issue though. How about "any Sunday after the kids have made their Communion"?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246645#Comment_118246645

Our education system reflects 1950s Ireland. The religious patronage model is not fit for purpose.

And as long as people behave similarly to the opening poster, our education system shall continue to reflect 1950’s Ireland, as opposed to reflecting the education system we had 100 years previously where only wealthy families could afford private education for their children, which prompted the intervention of the State, which led to religious organisations arguing that they should control education as they were providing it already, and that’s what led to the development of the Patronage system as opposed to education being provided primarily by the State or local authorities as it is in other countries.

The current situation isn’t just based upon census figures or mass attendance, it’s based primarily upon parents making decisions for themselves as to how their own children are to be educated. Some parents have more choices than others depending upon their socioeconomic status, and the only way to break the monopoly religious organisations have in this country over the provision of education is to continue to petition Governments to establish more State schools for parents who want that model of education for their children and do away with the rules which prevent the establishment of such schools.

Otherwise the DOE will continue to be able to hide behind the fact that patrons applying for patronage of any newly established schools either didn’t meet the requirements, or there were any number of other reasons why it was decided that patronage would go to one of the already established patron bodies - whether their ethos is religious, secular or something else entirely. That’s notwithstanding the whole parents survey (which ignores the projected population growth in any area, which is why the census figures are handy, not just as a stick to beat cultural Catholics over the head with 😁), the sibling rule, and the reasoning used by the DOE to justify their position that if there are places available in the local schools regardless of the ethos, then there is no need for the establishment of any new schools in the area.

Personally speaking, I’d rather we didn’t go back to a time when only wealthy people could afford to educate their children privately and the State did not interfere or attempt to regulate education in any way, but I also disagree with the idea of defunding religious patron bodies because they are established specifically for the purpose of providing religious education, and they should either stand or fall based upon their popularity - if parents actually wish to enrol their children in religious ethos schools for whatever their reasons (and I’ve heard many different reasons over the years, some more eyebrow raising than others 🤨), then they should also have the same freedom to do so as parents who do not wish to enroll children in schools or institutions which are in violation of their conscience and so on -

3.1°:The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

Otherwise, arguing that parents have little choice as the reason why parents choose to enrol their children in religious ethos schools is the reason why they do so, while it isn’t an unreasonable assumption as to some peoples motivations, there’s little evidence to support that argument, and far more evidence that parents choose to enrol their children in religious ethos schools because they want to, and the situation as described by the opening poster is a good example of it where they knowingly enrolled their child in a religious ethos school even though they themselves are not religious, and then they sought to rectify the situation afterwards.