Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117943101#Comment_117943101

To be honest I'm more surprised when I hear of people under the age of 50 who attend mass on a regular basis. Most of my friends are in the 35-45 bracket and none of them go to mass. Some have kids and have had them baptised but that's about it.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936978#Comment_117936978

In the 80&90s when I was in school we got sent to the school library for the 30mins before lunch every single day. There were around 6-9 of us and we were unsupervised. Don't think that would be allowed these days 😁

In confirmation year we were just left in the classroom when they went off to the church.

Some amount of time spent on religion though, don't think there's as much these days

3DataModem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058210009/religion-and-engaging-with-the-teacher

It is extremely difficult for a teacher to both "ensure she doesn't pray or learn anything religious", and "ensure she isn't ostracised".

You would letting your views on religion disrupt her school life, which appears to be the opposite of what an athiest would want.

I would advise you simply allow your child to learn about the religious stories in school (it's mostly pretty general morality stuff and parables in SI, JI and 1st class) and invest the time in contextualising this information to the child when they are at home. Kids are smart.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117943696#Comment_117943696

That poster confirmed that their children were not baptised so I don't think that was a factor in their case.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117943706#Comment_117943706

I would be the same. Some would have been fairly vocal about being against the church/religion but yet they all had the big white church wedding, children baptised, communion and confirmation etc.

So I do believe religion plays a bigger role in people's lives than they are willing to admit the alternative is they are not prepared to stand by their convictions. Only they themselves can answer that.

Which is why I think religion will be part of the school curriculum especially in a religious ethos school.

looksee

I admit that I more or less stopped reading after the first couple of pages as this is the exact same argument that has been played out in the Atheist and Agnostic forum for years. Just to be clear I am on the atheist side of the argument. My children went through religious education including all the trimmings because that is what my husband wanted and it wasn't an argument I particularly wanted to engage with, my atheism was only developing at that time. All my kids, now adults in their 30s to 50s completely fell away from the church in their teens and have no beliefs, hang-ups etc about it.

What I would suggest is that the OP is using his child as a battering ram to change society. I believe this is unfair to the child. The OP chose to send the child onto the front line of the conflict, and is now being a General on a hill, well away from the battle.

The whole business is far more complex than one child changing the system, work towards change, certainly. Don't use your child to do it singlehandedly though. The level of aggression being demonstrated by the OP is likely to do more damage to the child than some incidental fairy stories.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944046#Comment_117944046

No, I meant in general. A lot of parents baptised their children to get them into certain schools.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944692#Comment_117944692

Yeah I get that. It will definitely be an interesting one to watch.

Personally I can't see a massive change. If a couple married in a church it's pretty much a given that the children will receive sacrements....that's my experience/observation anyway.

There's absolutely no "need" for a church wedding yet that's what the majority do. So religion is obviously somewhat important to them.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117943101#Comment_117943101

This is in the midlands 15-20 years ago. What I mean by raised eyebrows is that I was questioned about my non-attendance to mass on a couple of occasions in the local pub. (More in a puzzled fashion than an aggressive one)

I'm well settled in the area now and I don't hide my lack of belief in a god.

I was told recently by a neighbour that the general assumption in the area for years was that I was a protestant (I'm originally from the North) and my partner was catholic. 😄

byhookorbycrook

Not really "eyebrows raised" then, I would say? More the general Irish nosiness!

Morris Garren

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058210009/religion-and-engaging-with-the-teacher

Something to bear in mind OP- over 20 years ago, a Supreme Court case determined that in matters concerning the seperation of Church and State, the ethos of a school (ie Catholic religious ethos in your situation) trumps any individual parental demands regarding the provision 'for' primary education. There may be other nuances and developments since, but my guess is that unless you are going to saddle up and ride to the Supreme Court, you are bound to at a minimum, 'respect' the ethos of the school to which you send your child. Your antagonistic, vitriolic and dismissive opinions on religion are indeed your own- but on the surface sound highly disrespectful to the ethos/work of said school.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117943101#Comment_117943101

In some schools you wouldn't dare mention being agnostic, atheist, other... well, not if you wanted an AP post anyway.

Many schools the AP is tied to the ethos . Could you imagine... an atheist year-head in a Catholic school?

Also most of the fee charging schools are intrinsically tied to the faith. You can be sure that ' them and us ' mentality continues on throughout networking life.

Knights of Bertibanus anyone?

byhookorbycrook

I’ve never seen religion tied to AP posts etc. but will accept that you have .

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971392#Comment_117971392

Standard question in interview, how would you promote the ethos.

pooch90

Athiest Deputy Principal here!

Bobtheman

I find these discussions amusing. Most schools will do their best to accommodate non believers but they have a lot on their plate.

What i find amusing is the threat these parents have with a bit of religion. If the parents don't have faith then i doubt the kid will be infected. Most religious beliefs are positive.

Sure the church here did a lot of wrong but creating flaps in school or elsewhere won't change history.

The secularists have won. Most secularists parents today didn't fight in the battle to separate church and state. But after the battle has been won they rush onto the field to stamp around. Like the guys who joined the IRA in the closing months of the war of independence. With the truce around the corner.

Religion has had very positive influences on western society. Only a moron would say otherwise. Pretty much all western thought originates from Christianity. Tom Holland has a great book on this.

Sure it went power mad in Ireland but a lot of states treated women and children badly

Atheistic belief systems like communism murdered much more. Mao 70 million for instance

looksee

I must be a moron so.

I'd like to respond to that post, but our starting places are so staggeringly far apart I would not know where to start. And I'm really a bit depressed by it.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989710#Comment_117989710

I find it even more fascinating that the Holland guy had time to write a book between shooting Spiderman and Avengers.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945508#Comment_117945508

I think attendance at mass, varies enormously from one area to the next.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944872#Comment_117944872

On a side note. Last year was the first year registry weddings over took church weddings.

I've also attended a few Humanist? funerals. So I think a huge shift in a short period of time.

Religion and religious events are still very important to a huger number of people. So its not to negate that either. Even if its cultural and socially.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117943706#Comment_117943706

I'd be the same.

However I'd also say I mostly don't know my friends and family habits religions or not. I'd consider it personal information unless it comes up.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993117#Comment_117993117

Well me too, but when you are relatively close to family/friends and meeting up with them at weekends or know that they do certain activities on weekends then it's clear in a lot of cases that they don't attend mass.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989710#Comment_117989710

Its important you know your starting point. Read that book and then comment. Otherwise it's like denying your parents

Bobtheman

Don't get me wrong. The irish church in particular was off its head for the period 1922-2000.

It showed no respect for separation of church and state but most Irish people supported them and voted for pro Church parties.

The various scandals showed the institution mainly wanted to protect itself.

But religious instruction today is harmless. Your kids will be growing up in a secular society. I can't think how that will harm them. RE

But in terms of the development of Western society you just can't separate the church out. Its like denying your parents.

I shall say no more

looksee

Its true that you can't separate them out, but the question is the degree to which the influence was positive. That there was a huge influence is undeniable, your contention that it was an entirely positive influence is what is debateable.

Bobtheman

Sorry never meant to say entirely positive. It was never entirely positive.

Particularly in Ireland but i think unfortunately the church and Irish nationalism got tied up together.

I also think the famine put the fear of God in people. Took us about a 150 years to get over.

Im going to read that Tom Holland book and see what he says.

The church did a lot of good in terms of the structures of civil Western society. Setting it up etc Human rights

In Ireland unfortunately as stated it got tied up with nationalism and got obcessssed with people's sex lives.

It should have focused instead on economic reform.

Im somewhat in agreement that if men could have got pregnant abortion would be a sacrament

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997075#Comment_117997075

Waving crystals and prescribing rescue remedies in A&E is probably harmless too.

... But we don't do it, and we don't tell people to "go away and find another hospital" either... although "This is a Catholic country" did come up in a hospital in 2012.

Said every year to parents in Irish schools and parents on here, but of course that's a totally different matter.

looksee

Religion has had very positive influences on western society. Only a moron would say otherwise. Pretty much all western thought originates from Christianity. Tom Holland has a great book on this.

 Read that book and then comment. Otherwise it's like denying your parents

Im going to read that Tom Holland book and see what he says.

Three quotes from Bobtheman on this page.

Bobtheman

Im not sure what the point is by putting my quotes together? To show your technical brilliance?

Parents should have more choice i agree but chronic underfunding of education is a more pressing issue.

Gradually religion will be out of primary schools.

Ethos at second level is not that much trouble.

I think people getting upset about it are fighting a battle they already won. It just takes time to move on trustees etc. Ever wonder why the state loves trustees. Because it can pretend it doesn't really run schools

As to the maternity hospital no woman will be denied treatment that is legal in the state. Mistakes were made in the past but i can't see that happening now.

I love talking to heathens but i have enough now

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003400#Comment_118003400

"As to maternity hospital no woman will be denied treatment that is legal in the state".

If you agree with the above... Would you agree with the below:

No child will be denied education based on Religion .

I don't care what religion you are btw and I'm happy to talk to heathens, infidels or gentiles. But I presume you'd be happier if people posting on here showed their baptism certificate before you considered there point worthy.

Religious tolerance indeed.

looksee

Im not sure what the point is by putting my quotes together? To show your technical brilliance?

In the first quote you told us about a book by Tom Holland that would inform us about your argument. In the second quote you said (irrelevantly) I should read it before I commented. And in the third quote you said you thought you would go off and read it yourself, to see what he says. Indeed.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013909#Comment_118013909

Groan. Where did I ever say a kid should be denied education based on religion? Does that still happen? So let's park the hysterics which secularists these days too readily reach for.

As to Tom Holland. I only pointed towards that as one source. I have read others. Anybody with a passing knowledge of European history beyond 300 years would know what I'm talking about.

Anyway God bless you all.

Take care

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939658#Comment_117939658

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939940#Comment_117939940

I can't be alone in seeing a massive contradictions within and between these two posts merely an hour apart, surely?

Enrolling a child into catholic dogma = "letting him make up his own mind" 🙄

But then you say the OP is a "complete hypocrite" for doing the same thing that you, a "complete atheist" have done yourself - enrol a child in a religious school (when they had no real choice but to do so).

Then it's wrong if "they're forcing their [non-religious] view on their own child" but it's OK to allow someone else to force a [religious] view on their child for them, even though it's a view that child's parents profoundly disagree with.

None of this makes a lick of sense.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989592#Comment_117989592

The secularists have won. Most secularists parents today didn't fight in the battle to separate church and state.

There is no separation between church and state in Ireland. 96% of primary schools are controlled by a church. Religious oaths and deference to the Christian god are still in the constitution. We can't even build a new national maternity hospital without it turning into a turf war between two sets of nuns.

You might like to inform yourself about the Enlightenment. Europe under Catholic Church control was a profoundly brutal and anti-intellectual place.

The tired old yarns about communism. Nothing to do with atheism. Nazism, Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism etc. all tapped into the same hooks in the brain that religion uses, they just replaced a cult of unquestioning obedience and veneration for a god with a cult of unquestioning obedience and veneration for a leader.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926183#Comment_117926183

No different to fairies, unicorns or Santa Clause?

Blazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137214#Comment_118137214

welcome to the party..unfortunately you're about a month late and everyone else has already left.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997075#Comment_117997075

I would add that 1922-2000 makes little sense without the context of what went before.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137336#Comment_118137336

So you don't see the massive contradictions as massive contractions then. OK... If people just continue to go along with a system they don't agree with, and even do sacraments etc. they don't believe in, then nothing will change.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137685#Comment_118137685

I guess they shouldn't go to the 96% of schools then.

Blazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137685#Comment_118137685

contradictions?

as in forcing my atheist beliefs on my child ?

I’m letting him chose his own path through life. He’s enrolled in a school but we had the option of skipping the class but I choose not to so he can make up his own mind down the road.

PS ..he doesn’t believe in him either which he came to on his own volition. He doesn’t even want communion which I’m completely onboard with it.

As opposed to the Op who knowingly enrolled his child in a catholic school and hiding his beliefs to get her a place. Then once his child was settled inside now he wants to boycott religion and complains about it.

Hotblack Desiato

You're allowing someone else to force their religious views on your child. That's not being neutral on the question of religion.

You also called the OP a "complete hypocrite". They're not being a hypocrite, those who pretend to go along with religion while not believing a word of it are hypocrites.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137970#Comment_118137970

Parents have the same right to send their child to a school regardless of their religion or non-belief. They also have the right for their child to be treated equally and with equal respect regardless of their religion or non-belief.

It's the schools which used to refuse to allow the first thing (until the law stopped them) and the ones (many but not all) which still refuse to do the second thing which are the problem here, not the fact that non-catholic parents exist.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138280#Comment_118138280

The OP is forcing their own views on their children, that is very obvious.

More than that, if they truly had the courage of their convictions they would have found an alternative rather than enrolling their children in a religious school.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138290#Comment_118138290

But...If people just continue to go along with a system they don't agree with,..(..by going to these schools...)....then nothing will change...etc.

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137970#Comment_118137970

Would you consider 96% of parents of school-age children in Ireland are practising Catholics?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138423#Comment_118138423

They usually have no choice other than to send their child to a religious patron school - but you knew that.

What they can do and tbh should do is insist that their child is opted out of religion. The greater the number of parents doing this the harder it is for schools to pretend that it's only a few "awkward" or "weird" people who want to do this, or that there's a silent majority of parents who just love catholicism despite never attending a church.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138334#Comment_118138334

(a) How?

(b) How?

Hotblack Desiato

As opposed to the Op who knowingly enrolled his child in a catholic school and hiding his beliefs to get her a place.

OP said they didn't have a non-religious school option, that's true for parents in most areas of the country, it's also true in my part of Dublin, too.

Hiding his beliefs to get a place? Catholic schools aren't allowed to discriminate against non-catholics in enrolment any more so whether he did or didn't "hide" anything is irrelevant.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138540#Comment_118138540

I presume you'd be happier if these people showed their baptism certificate everywhere. Religious tolerance indeed.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138565#Comment_118138565

There is always choice. Even if that choice is to challenge the status quo. Or if its not to compromise location, but to compromise access to education. Or transport, or work, or family.

Which is perfectly valid choices to make. Everyone makes such choices.