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The Irish protocol.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Here’s what a young catholic nationalist from west of the Ban (who roi are putting serious pressure on) thinks of the green and white army.

    catch yourselves in guys. This ship has sailed. OWC fans lead the way on the island around embracing diversity.

    this is another example of how your little UI Protocol project is doomed to failure. Onwards and upwards

    Conor Bradley. “I gave away the ball a bit before so I wanted to try to win it back," he smiled. "I got a massive cheer from the crowd, that was an unreal moment. I'm absolutely buzzing. To get that atmosphere, it's the thing of dreams really. It was a great night.”

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/NornIronfansatEuro2016/permalink/2933409753546735/



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    'OWC fans lead the way on the island around embracing diversity'

    As long as they're not the natives with their funny names and their weird language, eh DC?

    Must be difficult being a unionist who reflexively despises the native culture while espousing 'diversity'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    What do you suggest is the “native culture”. Disgusting phase that allows the mask to slip imho



  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭lurleen lumpkin


    'OWC fans lead the way on the island around embracing diversity'

    Ah, I get your sense of humour now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Back on topic. What do you guys think of Barniers current position?



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Are you not going to give us your own ill-informed opinion first?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    How is the phrase "native culture" a disgusting phrase? If somebody was taking about a place X and culture that was native to X. How can you phrase this without being disgusting btw?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Great to see a county from the North to win the All Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    It just demonstrates that you think one culture has some special place over the rest - more right to exist and requiring more protection. And no one here can tell is what this culture is that is ‘native’.

    if you think it’s a fine phrase then maybe you could tell us what it is that extends back beyond the the arrival of my ancestors - other than religion? And that’s assuming your ancestors were here ahead of mine?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You usually don’t hold back on your opinions Seth so I’d be keen to hear yours.

    I am particularly interested because so many here put so much faith in him and his unshakable love for all things Eu 🤔

    I don’t really don’t know why he was adamant that certain things should be imposed on the non Eu people in NI that he would now like his Eu french people released off. I guess he must think that french people want released off these. Or maybe he is trying to prevent momentum developing for Frexit 🤔. But I need help from some of you eu nationals to understand?

    I can only read the first couple of lines of this, but looks like a reasonable explanation https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/12/course-barnier-has-become-eurosceptic-french-want/amp/



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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,197 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    His current position appears to be - ahem - rapidly evolving, but (as far as I can make it out) he wants France to have the power to set its own annual quota on (non-EU) immigration, and not to be subject to ECJ jurisdiction in relation to immigration.

    You can form your own opinion as to the intrinsic merits of that position, but it's clearly wrong to say that "he was adamant that certain things should be imposed on the non Eu people in NI that he would now like his Eu french people released off". I'm not aware that Barnier ever proposed that the UK should not be able to control immigration into NI, or that NI should be subject to ECJ jurisdiction on matters of immigration.

    It seems to me that Barnier is effectively calling for France to withdraw from the Schengen agreements, or (more plausibly) to pursue modifications to the Schengen agreements so that France (and, presumably, other participants) can set immigration quotas in the way described, without being at risk of having them overturned in the courts. But none of this is relevant to the UK, which was never a party to the Schengen agreements, and was always free to regulate non-EU immigration as it wished (and is still free today to do that in respect of Northern Ireland).



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    You introduced Barnier into this conversation so you should supply your opinion.

    In terms of my opinion, I don't really care what he says as he is canvassing politically. This is completely separate to his job as European Commission's chief negotiator in which he had a task to perform - his own political opinions were largely irrelevant and I don't think he was asked for them - he was generally asked for the EU's position on something..



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Is there any reason as to why a NI supporters club is private? Kind of strange for such a group to be restricted to members only.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Barnier's opinion on immigration + how EU institutions should deal with that (or not) are not really "on topic". Only good for scoring some cheap points.

    Brexit is over, what's happening now are the consequences and fall out. Barnier's part in it is complete.

    EU immigration policy and politics of the member states is nothing to do with UK, its media or politicians any more, or indeed NI (even if politicians there [esp. DUP ones] seem to think the whole world revolves around a big axle passing through Belfast).



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    The following are native to Ireland and previous to the Ulster plantation.

    1. Irish language.
    2. Celtic art/design (Newgrange etc).
    3. Mythology (Cú Chulainn, Queen Maeve) Mistic island etc.
    4. Monasteries which were centres of education/craftmanship where people travelled from all over Europe to learn - i.e., Clonmacnoise.
    5. Trad music and dancing
    6. Brehon Laws very influential on how we behave as a people - for example Irish hospitality is a tradition from those laws.

    Last but not least - 7. Gaelic Sports - hurling is fairly unique to Ireland (shinty in Scotland) and is regarded as one of the oldest sports in the world.

    There is a few examples of native Irish culture that were all here well before the arrival of your ancestors.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    No. It just means you are saying the culture is native to a place. If I said to siesta is a native culture to spain. Is that disgusting or is it only Irish native culture you find disgusting.


    And why can't native culture be something in modern times. There is no reason why a native culture to a place can't be born in 2021.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Here is what he said “Must be difficult being a unionist who reflexively despises the native culture while espousing 'diversity'.”

    I would suggest he is setting the nationalist community up as the natives. What do you think he is implying about unionists and unionist culture and indeed every other culture in the land.

    it’s a little more complicated that his type like to admit. https://archive.archaeology.org/0107/abstracts/scotland.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I'd read it as him setting the Irish community up as natives, whether they're Catholic, Protestant or anything else.....given that we're talking about Ireland, I don't think it's particularly controversial to refer to Irish culture as the native culture of the land (though acknowledging that, as with every culture, it is a bit more complicated than that).



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Your culture is native too, regardless of its association with a perverse celebration of the subordination of the majority. In a few generations, after a United Ireland, unionist culture will be akin to Morris Dancing in England, a cultural curiosity.

    I'd imagine the whole 'blood-thunder-and-buckfast' days out are already considered an embarrassment by the majority of young, liberally-minded, people from a Protestant/Unionist background.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Not sure what one's politics has to do with whether one is native or not. Actual surnames will give you a good clue who is actually a native Irish/Norman/Ulster Scots/Anglo Irish decent. Unionist/loyalists distance themselves from Irish native culture, not the other way around.

    Can you actually see the cultural difference in the Americas between Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill? One was a native American, the other was an American. Both came from different cultures.

    I'm not sure the settlers that came with the Ulster plantation had connections to Dal Riada. If they did, their language would have been Gaelic, not Ulster-Scots which is a dialect of English.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    This (your first sentence) was exactly my point. Tom was narrowing it down to politics and stating that unionists had a problem with the natives. But then sure he has just had a dig at the morris dancers. In toms world , if you are not the same as him then you are somehow inferior - classic insecurity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I can’t be a**ed trawling back but a few posters said here the other day that the court case had died and was over.

    I see this is incorrect.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/benhabib6/status/1437654684014202881

    and before you set it up again as win/lose, this is just a tiny piece of the battle. I actually think it is not needed as all signs are that the movement has begun to removing the unessesary sea checks.

    mind you, I travelled back from Scotland with car jampacked with stuff last night and just got a smile as I passed through “the border” 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,197 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    That was me. But I didn't say that the court case "had died and was over"; just that the case was lost and, although the claimants had said they would appeal, I couldn't find anything online to confirm that they ever did. I pointed out that their own crowdfunding page had not been updated since May, and so made no mention either of the verdict in the High Court or of any appeal. That is still the case today: https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/defending-the-union-of-the-uk/. So they clearly don't feel much need to communicate with their supporters.

    Obviously, from Habib's tweet today they did appeal, but he still can't be arsed to update his followers and supporters with, e.g. a few hints as to what the grounds of appeal might be. He's got as much of their money as he is ever likely to get; he doesn't need them any more.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "setting it up as win/lose". It's a court case; he'll either win it or lose it. That's pretty much how court cases work. He'll either get the declaration he is seeking, or he won't. [Spoiler: He won't get the declaration he is seeking.]

    I think you may be a bit closer to the mark with the court case not being needed as "all signs are that the movement has begun to removing the unnecessary sea checks". You're possibly being a little overoptimistic here; Frost is still banging on about renegotiating the Protocol and/or suspending it, but there have been other signs that the UK has finally decided to engage with the process and utilise the mechanisms available to negotiate changes to the implementation of the Protocol. If the wiser head prevail in this interminable intra-Tory dispute Frost may yet be sidelined. And this should indeed result in any unnecessary sea checks being removed, while necessary ones are retained.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    A tiny piece of the battle? When dragging up what other posters said, don't forget that this legal challenge was described by yourself as a 'potential gamechanger' initially. Nice to see you've relegated from such lofty heights it to a tiny piece of the battle given the incredibly low likelihood of anything coming from it.

    I've seen Habib and his ilk's rhetoric about why they think the government should concede the matter.....nothing at all about any sort of legal argument for how the appeal has a snowballs chance in hell of actually succeeding in court.


    Congratulations on having no problems driving back from Scotland.....it seems that your concerns around East to West travel due to the Protocol were overblown; glad to see it is working just fine!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Thats not what Tom did: Here is his quote.

    “Must be difficult being a unionist who reflexively despises the native culture while espousing 'diversity'.”

    Its native culture not natives.

    Anyway - any thoughts on the differences between Sitting Bull and Buffalo Bill!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Bojo's Magic Bridge between Scotland and NI (described by Dom Cummings as, “the world’s most stupid tunnel”) not happening any more according to the Belfast Telegraph.....as predicted by pretty much everyone bar a few particularly Ostrich-type Unionists who still haven't copped on that they shouldn't trust a single word out of his mouth.

    One of many sacrifices predicted as part of the upcoming post-CoVid budget slashes, with the new post-Brexit economy struggling to recover. Hopefully NI is protected from as many of these cuts as possible, unlike the poor folk in Cornwall.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Being a little pedantic there. The point is he introduced politics into native culture

    as for sitting bull etc. What is your point? I detect that you might think Gerry Adam’s is equivalent to Sitting Bull? i understand the recent breakdown in sf in Derry was because they were stealing each others squaws?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,762 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    I still cant believe one of his ideas was to have a giant roundabout under the isle of man between scotland wales and NI



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