Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

The Killing of Fr Niall Molloy

2456712

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 101 ✭✭Turfcutter




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 101 ✭✭Turfcutter


    Even accounting for the dubious timelines (claimed assault time vs. actual time) David Flynn would have one of the better alibis - in White's pub until closing time and then hosting the younger family members in his house 3 miles away for sandwiches afterwards.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,420 ✭✭✭✭sligojoek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭Spencer101


    I need to rewatch the Today Tonight show but does it not menion that one of the Flynn's daughters or daughters-in-law said, at the inquest, they were in the pub until about midnight but the pub in fact closed at about 10pm. There is also a conflict in evidence between when they got to the pub- Flynn family say about 930pm independent witnesses say 9pm.

    The entire time line as presented by Flynn family was inaccurate and likely deliberately inaccurate. The one part of the evening that is most accurate is that Father Molloy was in the car with the Flynns on the way back to Kilcoursey House after they left their mutual friends the Goodbodys. They pass most of the younger member of the Flynn family going to the pub- the Goodbodys (I think) say the Flynns left at 9pm or 920pm. Kilcoursey to the Goodbodys is apparently no more than 5 minutes in a car. An 'Auntie May' lived in Kilcoursey- perhaps Richard or Therese's aunt and the children's Great-Aunt ? A Flynn daughter and daughter-in-law stayed with Auntie May whilst Richard, Therese and Fr Molloy were out visiting. The two younger women then go down to the pub and catch up with the group. At that point perhaps one of the younger crowd in the pub says I'm just going back to talk to Richard and/or Therese and/ or Fr Niall.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 101 ✭✭Turfcutter


    I don't remember an account that the pub closed at 10pm. I would have thought this less likely in that era. Pubs were usually busy on a Sunday night.

    There was a total group of 10 who ended up in Whites. Even if they were all in cahoots in giving false accounts of their movements, they were leaving themselves open to contradiction by independent witnesses by using such a public setting for an alibi.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭Spencer101


    Indeed. As I follow the Today Tonight programme that's exactly what happened. My take on what the show says is that a man who was not in their group but had been at the wedding saw them in the pub at 9pm. They claim to have got to the pub at 945pm and left after midnight. Today Tonight explicitly says the pub closed at 10 that night. The relevant part is about 24 minutes after beginning of  the program.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭HildaOgdenx


    Thanks for this, will watch it later. Today Tonight was a very good programme. I don't watch any of the current offerings but I don't think they compare well.

    I didn't watch the programme this week. I remember the case, but had forgotten / didn't really know a lot about it, especially the aftermath.

    Did the Flynns own a coffee shop in Athlone, at some stage? I think I remember someone pointing him out to me.

    Sadly, I don't think Fr Molloy's family will ever see justice done. May he rest in peace.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,928 ✭✭✭cml387


    Closing time was 10pm on Sunday's in those days. Of course they could have stayed longer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 101 ✭✭Turfcutter


    I wouldn't say it's definitive that the pub closed at 10pm. People give best guesses on timelines, so expect some leeway. Perhaps the witness gave an estimate that if they left at closing, then it must have been just after 10.

    In that era the pubs in Clara would have been still going after 10pm on a Sunday. That day Offaly had played Dublin in Tullamore and there were 25,000 at it. I would think this would see a bigger turn out in the pubs. My recollection is that the local sergeant Kevin Forde was quite sociable himself and wouldn't have been known to be hammering on pub windows with flashlight 1 minute after closing.

    Also, if Denis Hoctor was not going to corroborate the Flynn timeline, would he give a false alibi if the assaulter was part of the group of 10?

    More interestingly. Was it strange that the group went out to Tubber for a night cap instead of back to Flynn's? Surely it was a bit unsocial to not reconvene with the remaining wedding guests in Kilcoursey? Did they get word that something was up and to stay away, or did they get quickly ushered away from the house and told to get elsewhere if they were coming back directly from White's?

    The key timelines are when did any remaining guests start to evacuate the house when they realised there was an incident brewing? In the McGinn report there is an account of someone well dressed vaulting the wall between 10pm and 11pm and running away. There were other anecdotal accounts in the locality of people scattering away from the estate around this time.

    Could the guards have checked phone records to see when the phone calls to the solicitor in Dublin began? There are accounts that this is where the advice to clear the house of witnesses came.

    The technology may have less advanced but Telecom Eireann at least had the capability of knowing how much to bill you by for regional phone call.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,519 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    That was when we had real public service broadcasting and the presenters were not the star's

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 101 ✭✭Turfcutter


    Yes, there was a cafe (Chez Ninis) in the old Quinnsworth shopping centre that Therese was running up until her death.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,519 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    We were moving from electro/ mechanical to digital exchanges at the time. I think the last actual manual exchange did not close until late 1980's. I think you had to opt in for detailed bills showing all calls and there was a charge when it came in. Clara would have been a small sub telephone exchange so it would depend on the technology available in it at the time.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭HildaOgdenx


    Yes, I couldn't think of the name of it, but I can picture it alright in the old shopping centre.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 101 ✭✭Turfcutter


    While the end user may not been able to see the itemised bill, the exchange itself would have had some logging mechanism?

    If I'm correct, the 05 area has it master hub in Waterford, but houses in Clara were connected to the Portlaoise exchange.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,519 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Richard Flynn owned a group of motorfactors, they were more in the Halfords line than your local motorfactor now. I think they were called Richland. I think he had one in the Parkway shopping center in Limerick. He bought out the lease of one in the Cresent Shopping center and renamed it. I remember at the time the product offering was not as good as under the previous management.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭HildaOgdenx


    True. I remember a good programme too, most likely Today Tonight about the phone tapping.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 101 ✭✭Turfcutter




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,519 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    It would depend on whether Clara was digital at the time or electro mechanical. If electro mechanical there is no hope detailed billing was available.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    That today tonight investigation programme was excellent and what struck me most was the partnership between fr Molloy and Therese Molloy which included valuable land holdings and horses but when fr Molloy died,the Flynn's would seem to have got full control of those assets as the previous partnership not registered legally it seemed and was based on trust and fr Molloy's trust he had with the Flynn's may have being coming to a end that weekend.

    Post edited by cap.in.hand. on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭Spencer101


    It always seemed in the reports that there was fairly extensive legal action by the Molloy family post 1985 to regain Fr Molloy's estate. In some instances to use a recent well publicized phrase ' recollections may differ' and as a result nothing might have come of specific claims the Molloy's thought were well grounded. E.g A cousin believed Fr Molloy had a Jack B Yeats picture in Kilcoursey house whereas the Flynns said he had taken his pictures away in I think 1983. The Today Tonight show talks about a 60 acre parcel of land near a by-pass and in the year or two before Fr Molloy's death he and Therese had sold about 15-20 acres of the land for the original overall price. The 40 acres were kept as tenants in common but the Molloy family only found out about this as a result of the research done by Today Tonight in 1987. I need to re-read the McGinn report I think whereas the Today Tonight show estimated the jointly owned 7/8 horses were worth £70,000 or some such figure the Flynns said some were sold and the buyers were abroad and refused to pay the full fee and/or there were substantial vet bills in relation to some of the horses. It's not my area but I found it slightly odd that Fr Molloy and Therese Flynn had 4-5 joint accounts for their horse trading/ land business in several different bank branches.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    Seemed to be a profitable partnership.... certainly didn't look like it was for the love of horses alone that put them together but the lucrative earning potential for both partners



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭Trigger Happy


    Niall Molloy was in the Irish college in Rome with my uncle. He became friends with my mother at that time too when she went to live in rome for a bit. So they became friends and he presided of her marriage to my dad a few years later back in ireland. By the time of his death the friendship had waned but the news hit my uncle and mother hard.

    In their eyes Niall Molloy was just one of life's nice people.

    The travesty that was the aftermath of his death (investigation and trial) is a disgrace. That the first person called after he died was the local priest. Then an hour later the called a doctor. And then another hour after that the Gardai are called and asked to 'help avoid this becoming a scandal'. Like WTF - more like the 1920's than the 1980s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,468 ✭✭✭Gadgetman496


    Correct, but I think they were called Richspeed. He had one in the Galway Shopping center Headford road too. The chap that managed the Galway one eventually took it over and it is still there today but moved to a smaller unit along with changing it's name a few year ago.

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 598 ✭✭✭White lighting


    That's what I was alway led to believe. Still alive and living in Enniskerry I think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭Spencer101


    There was obviously a lot of speculation and gossip about the case. In McGinn's report the then DPP had to deny he was a godfather to one of the Flynn children - the cold case team or whatever they are called went to the trouble of checking the baptism records for the Flynn children from the late 1950s to the early 1960s. The 'high society' side of the wedding might have been over done a bit. Therese Flynn was in college with Ann Lenihan and stayed friends with her. I don't know the overall attendance at the house but the Bridge House hotel sent 30-40 staff or something like that for the catering so it was a reasonable size. Amidst presumably a large crowd there was also in addition to Lenihan a member of the Fianna Fail National Executive which from memory is (or was) quite a large committee.

    Kevin Forde is quoted in the report as having been stationed in Clara from 1980 to 1997 and said that the Flynns pre 1985 were not known to the station in relation to even the most minor of motoring offence. No summonses had ever been pulled or alleged influence brought to bear.

    McGinn tends to find no evidence that Frank Roe wrote to the DPP claiming he knew Mr and Mrs Flynn and Fr Molloy. The Judge's usher/ tip staff was still alive at the time of McGinn's report and claimed never to have driven Roe to any meeting where he met the Flynns or Molloy. David Flynn is also quoted in the report as denying a rumour that his mother stopped speaking to him after the death of Fr Molloy albeit he concedes that their relationship did change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    There is a article in the indo from Jan 2013 from a interview with a Dr Kate Flynn who is based in South Africa and Richard Flynn is her uncle with David Flynn her 1st cousin...she said in that newspaper interview that David Flynn should now say what he said he couldn't say during that rte interview after the inquest....and I'd say she doesn't believe her uncle caused the death of fr Molloy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭Spencer101


    David Flynn was re-interviewed in 2012/2013 and that interview was quoted in McGinn report. The gist of his not that intelligible explanation for the post inquest interview was that he could have addressed some speculation. Except he did not. It wasn't the right time. Exactly what strand of the speculation he was going to attack he did not say (in 2012/2013) and how he was going to do it again he didn't say. So that cleared all that up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    That's good enough....in fairness during that interview...he looked and acted like a rabbit dazzled by headlights...but his cousin in her newspaper interview seemed to be siding with the Molloy family in seeking what really happened in the Flynn home that evening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    I agree wholeheartedly. That programme was excellent, with so much information,

    some of which I was hearing for the first time. I did not get the name of the presenter,

    who was brilliant, but, obviously, not a media star!



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,352 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    It beggers belief the actions of the judge at the time, wonder did a large brown envelope change hands?

    The Flynn kids must be in their late 50s now I suppose so still young enough to remember clearly what went on, maybe someday one of them will decide to open up.



Advertisement