The Killing of Fr Niall Molloy

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117868141#Comment_117868141

You are watching to many mafia or Love Hate type programs where the baddies beat up people or kill them over a debt.

What if the financial partnership he had with Theresa was just a front to fleece him?

What if he found out that documents that were supposed to include his name as a partner didn't have his name at all and thus in legal terms she owned everything?

Then you are looking at fraud.

And would you put it past someone that later tried to claim life insurance on him ?

His house was broken into and searched.

For what ?

If he dies, if the paperwork linking him to any partnership doesn't exist anywhere, the ownership of any assets (horses, land, etc) are all in her name.

That would solve an awful lots of financial issues for them.

Whatever happened to his will ?

She had been his friend for years and I bet did initially genuinely start off in business with him through their shared love of horses.

But maybe slowly over time the hubbie saw him as a cash cow that could be drained.

Maybe Fr Molloy eventually caught wind of something.

I get the feeling that he was never best friends with the hubbie it was all through her.

Maybe hubbie never liked him anyway and when it kicked off he lost it.

She is supposed to have taken him upstairs after fight with hubbie.

Maybe she tried to reason with him not to go public about dodgy dealing and when he refused she turned on him and then hubbie and others joined in from downstairs?

All she has to claim is that he went for her either physically or sexually and hubbie and others gladly kick the shyte out of him?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117869178#Comment_117869178

Eh I think you’re the one with the TV fictional mind with that elaborate theory- yet another conspiracy theory adding nothing to this thread

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117869178#Comment_117869178

That's a good logical theory if the Flynn's were having cash flow problems with their own businesses which it seems they were.

HildaOgdenx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117868853#Comment_117868853

No, I think that would have been a very strange thing for a priest to do.

Weddings in the 80s were organised in much the same way as they are nowadays. The couple would have approached the celebrant to ascertain his availability, and that the church was available on the day. They would then go ahead and organise everything around that date, including their venue. Well known hotels would have weddings most weekends.

It wouldn't be at all reasonable for the celebrant to ask them to delay their wedding because he was asked to officiate at another wedding. And from what has been shown on the programme so far, and from various articles, over the years, Fr Molloy seems to have been a diligent priest who served his parishioners well.

Addle

Maybe the local wedding was just planned long before the Flynn’s? He’d hardly cancel then.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117869178#Comment_117869178

If the plan was to kill him for his assets they picked a massively high profile way to do it, at their daughter's wedding ffs. it's just not plausible. If they had planned to kill him all they had to do is say he made a pass at a woman (or child) and things escalated.

It's far more likely someone just got overly aggressive when drunk. We've probably all been in rooms where fights have kicked off over nothing when drink is taken. The only real issue is if it was Richard Flynn or not for me.

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117869980#Comment_117869980

Going by Mondays documentary fr Molloy was going to Flynn's with something heavy on his mind...maybe what he said caused ruptions ...this wasn't a planned assualt I would think by the Flynn's on fr Molloy but he may have been a thorn on their side from then on if he survived and literally thought they'd get away with murder by claiming self defence/accidental fall.

rovers_runner

Guardians of the peace eh, some boys they are.

They even paid drug lords for the files that got misplaced to ensure it wouldn't get out.

I'd say Dr. Harbison saw many things that he was told to keep to himself over the years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870163#Comment_117870163

It was a strange documentary, made a lot of Fr Molloy's privileged upbringing and doubts over his vocation. Certainly primes it for a revelation about a mistress off somewhere. It is portrayed (though perhaps not accurately?) that he was wealthy enough to leave the priesthood from his family wealth so why would he have used that weekend to kick up over the money he was owed?

It's all too easy to cast aspersions on the deceased but I wouldn't be surprised by either a revelation that he had a different partner somewhere (and fair play to him if he did) or that he was the father of one of the Flynn's kids. It's easier to imagine a fight along the lines of "the bride was really his daughter" or money than any actual planned fight.

Certainly from the testimony in documentary part 1, that weekend event was significant for Fr. Molloy- for whatever that reason was- you could certainly come to the conclusion that it was a “grave” reason, a life defining moment- that was certainly the impression portrayed- whether it was just a socially challenging event or life and career changing event who knows at this point- but “something” was amiss .

The only account I can discount was the story put forward by Flynn- that it was simply an argument over who goes downstairs to get a drink- yes certainly such an argument could occur- and with enough drink blows traded- but regret would follow very quickly - not leaving someone to die- no way .

As for anyone else involved? I don’t think that necessarily follows- it could well have been something between the 2 Flynn’s and Molloy- and unless they confided in their kids as to what happened and why, it will always remain a mystery.

I’ve no idea why Molloy stated Theresa was his sister in his will- nor why Theresa claimed to be his sister in law when claiming on his insurance policy (I think I’ve got that aspect correct) - maybe it was something to do with the church at that time? Rules, Canon law on inheritances? Who knows

HildaOgdenx

The only account I can discount was the story put forward by Flynn- that it was simply an argument over who goes downstairs to get a drink- yes certainly such an argument could occur- and with enough drink blows traded- but regret would follow very quickly - not leaving someone to die- no way .

I don't think the story about a row over who was to get a drink was ever believed, even at the time. It didn't make any sense.

I thought the documentary really portrayed the stark reality that the priest was left to die, possibly over several hours. It's hard to comprehend the callousness of that.

Talisman

@[Deleted User]

I’ve no idea why Molloy stated Theresa was his sister in his will

Where was this reported? I had always understood that the will had never been found.

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870561#Comment_117870561

That was for a type of life insurance if accidental death...it would have paid out about £1500...his will would his current assets including horses land cash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870561#Comment_117870561

I definitely read what I posted, somewhere- but I just can’t find the link right now- some of my previous links I posted may have it- definitely one website claimed Malloy had her down as text of kin in his will, as his sister.

However I can only find this link right now that mentions she claimed to be his sister when claiming on the insurance policy after his death - I actually read elsewhere she claimed she was his “sister in law”- so there are differing accounts depending what website you read.

https://presspack.rte.ie/2021/09/06/the-killing-of-fr-niall-molloy/

Bass Reeves

Too many here are over thinking this situation. It was a straight case over money. Why was he in the Flynn bedroom???. There was obviously discussions over money/ finances.

We know that Richard Flynn's businesses were in trouble. RF comes across as a man that came from a wealthy ( land owning) class. Richspeed was developed on a flawed concept. His was a motor accessories business. You have to understand that till receipts were not not linked to stock as nowadays. Margins were not as high as at present. I expect that RF was just a bad business man on trouble.

For Molloy was looking for his money back and was going to follow through with it. Whether it was RF or Theressa that killed him it is obviously one of them. I actually suspect it was her and she broke down after the event, that is why she had to be removed from the scene she was incapable of managing what happened.

There is no need to look beyond the money

Spencer101

Fr Molloy had a room in the Flynn's house and had known them 30 years or so. I doubt it was the first time he had gone in the marital bedroom at night. Richard Flynn was a former Munster rugby captain one presumes that a large amount of the other men at the wedding/ in house night of murder were from a broadly similar background. It would seem to me that Fr Molloy was battered and it wasn't done by Therese Flynn. In the McGinn report someone called to the house to offer condolences and was surprised (as they had heard the Flynns version of events) to see no marks on her face. One difficulty for many of us is this was a different time, a different world. Unless you were alive in 1985 and/or of a certain age to remember life in Ireland- easy to forget the attitude to paying tax. The morality (or lack of morality) that would allow for the life assurance claim albeit of course that was not pursued. Elsewhere on the forum someone says it was for £1,500. I can't find anything to back that up save that McGinn described it as a ' modest sum of money'. The Flynns seemed as happened in that decade to be living beyond their means. I'm sure those elsewhere in the country who had modest success in business wouldn't have thought having 2/3 motor factor shops and a cafe (or some similar business empire) was unobtainable- I don't think they all expected on foot of that to be living in a 23 bedroom house.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117869945#Comment_117869945

The Flynn wedding was in July and the newly weds had their first baby the following December - so she was 3-4 months pregnant on her wedding day. So perhaps the Flynns wedding planning was rushed. Its highly likely the other wedding was arranged before the Flynns announced they were having a wedding the same day so Fr Molloy stood by his original plans.

Im sure Fr Molloy was possibly annoyed that he was owed money by the Flynns and that weekend they spent so much money on a lavish wedding.

ernielove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870889#Comment_117870889

According to his son at his eulogy he was the Connaught captain and had to retire through injury aged 25 (per IT article in 2017 when he died)

A hospital report at the time says she was black/blue from her injuries. So again, conflicting reports.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say they were living beyond their means, i mention it above also in an earlier post, where did they think they were going with a mansion such as that with the business they had. if you look at anyone else in the 80's who, as you say, had modest business success, they may have had a nicer car or maybe two, the kids wore new clothes and not 'hand me downs' or adidas runners io Dunnes stores but no one had a 23 bed mansion.

It does make me wonder what is going on with the house now and why no one has turned it into a hotel or Spa resort.

cap.in.hand.

I also notice that when Richard died...at his funeral all his children have a great account of him..... meanwhile when Therese..their mother died ..there is absolutely nothing in the press about her funeral and she dying first...the only thing about her was that Richard was to buried beside her at his burial.

ernielove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870989#Comment_117870989

he married again subsequently. I only found out from here as to when she actually died.

Turfcutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870989#Comment_117870989

In the early 90s orations from the altar by family wasn't common at all.

Turfcutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870925#Comment_117870925

I don't remember any hospital report saying she was black and blue? In fact I thought it was unexplained item that there was no seen hospital records of her stay there.

Turfcutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870923#Comment_117870923

I think it is fairly well accepted that a parish priest had to give preference to local weddings. Back then Fr Deignan who officiated at the actual wedding wouldn't have been most people's first choice for a wedding as he was quite an austere person.

However that's a very good point about the lavishness of the wedding. This may have been the trigger for Fr Molloy to finally lose his patience with the Flynns. Owed thousands by them, being strung along and then seeing what the money was being blown on.

ernielove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871011#Comment_117871011

Take a look at the McGinn report, specifically page 92, second to last para where he, the hospital employee, describes Theresa as having 'a black eye and a badly bruised face'.

Talisman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870663#Comment_117870663

My grandfather always believed that it was Theresa who was responsible for the initial assault. His reasoning was that it's the only explanation for why there were no defensive wounds on the victim. He used to say that a gentleman would never raise his hand to a woman even in self defense, that was drummed into him as a child by his own father and he believed that Niall Molloy would have been taught similar rules.

Spencer101

Which, whether you fully agree or not, brings us back to the point already made that there are members of the wedding party alive and loosely between the age of 55-65 who have kept silent for 36 years over the truth of that night.

Turfcutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871073#Comment_117871073

Ok, that's a witness account from someone who saw her in hospital as opposed to a report from Tullamore hospital.

ernielove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871305#Comment_117871305

you are quite right my apologies.

Turfcutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871322#Comment_117871322

Not at all. I was just wondering had I missed something. I think it's widely accepting that she had some facial injuries but further information is sketchy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871452#Comment_117871452

Yes these “sightings” and other anonymous letters/witnesses are dealt with in the McGinn report and quite simply, while they may or may not have been made in good faith, they’re impossible to verify. I think there was one letter or statement saying that they witnessed a heated argument between Molloy and Flynn earlier in the day - again very hard to verify these statements or take them as fact - and it’s mainly the fault of the Gardai not interviewing witnesses and members of the wedding party, staff on the day etc-

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117869711#Comment_117869711

Why because it challenges your idiotic idea that only people owed money do the beating up and killing?

You are one of the ones that has to think it was all about illicit affairs, questionable parentage, etc.

Everything doesn't have to be about sex, especially everything involving catholic priests from the 80s or earlier.

It is fact that they were trying to use Fr Molloy and his money to bail out Richard's financial worries.

And AFAIK it was fact that Fr Molloy had contacted solicitor about his business arrangements with T Flynn.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117869980#Comment_117869980

FFS just because he was killed doesn't mean it was premeditated murder.

It wasn't planned.

But it was planned to screw him out of his money, the breakin at his house was planned.

Numerous witness statements atest to fact Fr Molloy had something on his mind in the weeks leading up to that point, he was concerned about something.

It looks like things came to a head the night of the wedding followup and yes drink did probably mean it escalated to the point he was kicked to death.

As someone said how happy would you be to be owed thousands, possibly up to 24,000 (which in those days could buy a decent house in some parts of the country) only to be told they didn't have it and then to turn up and see how lavish a celebration they had laid on.

The Flynns were all fur coat and no knickers.

That would cause even a mild mannered man like Fr Molloy to lose it and complain.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870889#Comment_117870889

You have some major facts wrong there.

Firstly he was from Galway and played for Connacht, big difference there chief.

Secondly it was not a 23 bedroom house, it was a 23 room house.

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871006#Comment_117871006

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871006#Comment_117871006

The priest would speak about the deceased life and achievements during their lifetime in consultation and on behalf of their family at their funeral mass that time.... but in later times it usually a family member who does it now at the later stages of the funeral mass

Deeec

The more I look at this I think Fr Molloy realised that weekend that his money was spent on the wedding. A marqee, caterers and free bar would have been an expensive wedding in 1985 - this would have been regarded as lavish. This would have been a real display of status and wealth. The Flynns were pleading the poor mouth, dodging and giving excuses why they couldnt pay him back his money so Fr Molloy went to his solicitor for advice prior to the events. Im sure when he went to the wedding and seen how lavish it was he knew his money was used to pay for it. It triggered off an argument and someone killed him accidently- I think it was probably Theresa. Richard agreed to cover for her.

Whats baffling though is that the house seemed to be quite busy that day and night - Why did so many people stay quiet on the events?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871678#Comment_117871678

Who pizzed on your cornflakes? Your statements about me and what I’ve said arefull of crap but go have your rant if you get your kicks from it- I can see you’re just gunning for a fight

ernielove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871805#Comment_117871805

This scenario sounds very plausible. I read something or heard something to the effect that legal advice was sought in the interim. Who knows then maybe they said 'right you all saw it you all are accessories/joint enterprise if you don't keep schtum we'll take you all down with us'. Political influence probably got them the benign judge and Richard maybe took the blame because he figured that if anyone was fit to do time, he would have been the best candidate.

I will agree however that this is maybe stretching it perhaps.

Turfcutter

You could almost picture it. The poor unfortunate priest looking on as Brian Lenihan pours himself a pint (as per a witness statement) and thinking: "Can he just do that?...Is he not even going to pay for it?"

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871805#Comment_117871805

Richard and Therese daughter was marrying into a very wealthy family..the Parkes of Limerick.... no expense was going to spared by the Flynn's to impress the Limerick contingent arriving to Clara that weekend.

ernielove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871915#Comment_117871915

'PAY FOR WHAT?? DONT YOU KNOW WHO I AM?? I HAVENT BOUGHT MYSELF A DRINK SINCE THE CIVIL WAR...'

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871833#Comment_117871833

Jaysus will you relax.

I feel I rightly questioned your assertion that normally only people owed money do the killing.

I even agree with some of your other assertions like fact that the claim it was over who got the drinks in was total bull.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117872126#Comment_117872126

I agree no expense was spared - the Flynns were out to impress the Parkes and no doubt they did impress them on the day of the wedding. They only problem was the Flynns didnt have the money to spend. In the 80's the brides father would have to pay for the wedding. As someone mentioned earlier they were living way beyond their means. To add to their problems the wedding it would seem needed to be rushed - the couple were married in July and had a baby in December so by the sounds of it the wedding was whats known as a 'shotgun wedding'. Back in 1985 as soon as pregnancy was mentioned the parents would have wanted to get the couple up the aisle and married as soon as possible to avoid scandal. They needed to get money to pay for this as soon as possible to stay respectable and have their pregnant daughter married and used their good friend Fr Nialls money.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117872164#Comment_117872164

And then you went on to attribute all sorts of bullsh1t theories of sex and affairs to me when I never mentioned either in any of my posts so no I won’t “relax” when you just barge in here spraying your verbal diarrhoea at posters looking for a rise from them

Spencer101

I think they likely got rid of Therese because she was the weak link in the chain if they kept her there. She had been drinking, took a sleeping tablet and was then sedated and so they gambled that if she did say anything it could be discounted. Once she was in hospital they couldn't control who saw her and who spoke to her so she must not have been injured/ obviously injured. I stand corrected on the minor point of which provincial rugby team Richard captained and exactly how big his very large mansion was.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871678#Comment_117871678

But it was planned to screw him out of his money, the breakin at his house was planned.

is the break in at his house mentioned in the new doc? I haven't had a chance to watch it yet

Sy Kick

I hope jmayo and plentyotoole won't be going to the same wedding reception this weekend.

Was it the parkes family that the main fianna fail connections were with?

It would have been a real scandal in those times if a public figure had of been present when this grubby little violence took place.

I would guess that some pressure came to bear and a lot of people were happy that it was a pretty inept investigation.

Talisman

Between 2010 and 2012, Gemma O'Doherty uncovered a lot of information that wasn't in the documentary.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/journalists-fight-to-solve-the-murder-of-fr-molloy-28812914.html

Fr Molloy was involved in a business deal with the Flynns and he wanted out of it. He consulted his solicitor about getting his money back, in what was described as an "anxious" visit. In the days before he died, the priest had a black eye. He named the perpetrator to his cousin.

Gemma O'Doherty learnt that the same individual had assaulted the priest, pushing him against a coffee table days before the murder. The perpetrator is still at large.

In another twist, some of Fr Molloy's valuables went missing after he died, including a horse and several paintings.

It is rare for a journalist to achieve what Gemma has: delivering fresh witnesses with key information to a garda investigation that had long ago ran cold. Gemma does not want to "become" the story. She turned the attention instead on another great journalist, the late Veronica Guerin, who was murdered by drug lords in 1996.

Veronica's experiences working on the Fr Molloy story before she died have confirmed to Gemma her own conviction that the case is a bigger story of State failures and complicity of well-connected people.

"At the time she was writing about it, Veronica told the Molloy family that two of her sources in Phoenix Park warned her away from the case and that she was 'walking on thin ice'," said Gemma.

"Veronica was shown the Molloy police file by her underworld source, John Traynor. He came to have it after it was stolen by his associate, Martin Cahill, from the DPP's office in 1987.

"The file contained handwritten letters from the trial judge Frank Roe to the then DPP Eamonn Barnes saying he knew the parties in the case. Two of the judge's former colleagues have confirmed this to be the case, and say Frank Roe, a keen horseman, knew the Flynns and Fr Molloy through fox-hunting circles.

"The week before Veronica was due to publish one of her stories on the case, the Sunday Independent flagged it. Days later, she received the first threat on her life when shots were fired through the window of her home," said Gemma.

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117873852#Comment_117873852

Interesting about the black eye and pushing him against a coffee table way before main event.... wonder did he report those assaults to gardai.....that would be intimadation...nothing in 1st part of documentary about that...this was over 10 years ago...that culprit could be dead today

silliussoddius

Why would Martin Cahill steal the file and how would he know to look for it? I used to follow Gemma's reporting on this and the Mary Boyle case, but she seemed to be stretching things.

Talisman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117874254#Comment_117874254

In 1987, Martin Cahill stole an entire filling cabinet of files from the DPP. There were 145 files stolen in total.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mystery-of-the-files-that-were-stolen-and-burnt-26692155.html

Here is a more complete story of the stolen file and how it relates to the death of Veronica Guerin.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/how-cahill-tried-to-cash-in-fr-molloy-murder-file-29721923.html

I think it’s generally accepted that he didn’t target that file per se- I believe numerous files were stolen -regardless of number, this happened to be one of them

Turfcutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117873852#Comment_117873852

Unfortunately Gemma O'Doherty's work on this case can't be stood over as being reliable. Even reading the McGinn report you can see where there was hectoring of witnesses by her and browbeating with conspiracy theories. She had also published accounts of happenings that were disputed by the witnesses.

It was a long time back I learned that the Molloy family, having initially welcomed her attention, had been badly burned and wanted nothing more to do with her. Similar to the Mary Boyle case.